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About REND

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  1. I agree with you 100% here. Yu Jing can already field practically a full HI force if the player chooses to and a real test of IA as both a good sectoral and positive addition to the vanilla faction will be the balance that is struck for list building. With this in mind I am more okay with the Daofei being excluded as it helps retain something for the main faction. Fire teams and adjusted availability are great and very powerful but it's best if they don't invalidate other parts of the faction. In this regard the Invincible army has a very fine line to tread considering ISS and JSA as well as the vanilla faction. Both other sectoral lists can field full HI links with potent board presence and utility. By itself this kind of crowds out a lot of space that the IA can occupy.
  2. You have reminded me that the list could changed by filling out the original module with a second Su Jian for the 10th order in that combat group. Duo links of Su Jian are an amazing swiss army knife of pain to deal with.
  3. Bear in mind that whether or not something is a legit idea and tactic is not the same as being a jerk. The easy way to figure out the latter if whether or not the opponent enjoyed the game. (If the opponent is your spouse then perhaps take this fairly seriously.) As far as a min max combat group of dirt cheap cheerleaders powering a super soldier. It's very potent and so long the other combat group with the rest of the list can deal with missions and such you have yourself a very capable force.
  4. I have been doing a lot of thinking about the Invincible sectoral. Reading this has been interesting.
  5. CC is very powerful but within an equivalently limited setting. Unlike ranged combat where it's relatively easy to get into a good position for a favourable shoot-out CC requires you to get into base contact and that's really difficult in a game where people can see and accurately shoot you from across the table. Even worse that everyone with line of sight to you can take a shot at you and in CC you only get 1 roll and (generally) against a single target. Getting in to CC requires practice, forethought and planning with a keen eye for opportunism. Most of my success with CC units is because I've seen the chance whilst trying to achieve something else. This is in part why the ninja killer hacker is such a good CC model because it's usually got something else to do but this might turn out to be better. In addition to smoke (which is order intensive) you can use cautious moves, terrain and marker status to close the distance. There is a reason impersonation is one of the more powerful abilities in the game for CC units and that's because it allows you to start up close and move around much more safely to get into position. Infiltration and airborne deployment can also help if you want to use CC aggressively. However most of the time CC troops are much better when the enemy has to come to you, which is where missions with civvies, objective rooms and beacons near your own deployment zone become very helpful for inducing the enemy to get close enough to you for the CC models to do their thing. A lot of good combat specialists do has some ranged presence which should in general be seen as their main armament for tackling foes. The oniwaban is about as CC focused as you can get but a lot of the time you are best remembering that his boarding shotgun and nanopulsor are pretty good too. So why bother with CC? Because as a face to face roll it's really reliable, although you'll usually only ever have burst 1 most CC specialists have stats above 20 and you don't care about any of the mods that would usually affect ranged combat such as camouflage, smoke or low-vis or cover. Meaning that your odds of hitting are 100%, you cannot miss. You can still lose the face to face roll but again, even though the opponent will be rolling against you they will probably have a chance of failure and skills like martial arts or surprise attack can modify their roll. To add to this CC is about the only time you see the actual dice results modified. Every point above 20 adds to your roll meaning that with MA3 and CC 23 a ninja is looking at +6 their roll (on top of the opponent being at -3 to theirs from the MA3. So the minimum roll the ninja can achieve in this instance (assuming no mods back) is 7, with any result of 14 or higher being a crit. Compared to the opponent who may only have a 50% chance of hitting in the first place after mods. CC is also a great equaliser because it's invariably a single dice-off, making it unlikely, if not impossible for the opponent to kill you with a single ARO if you've more than one wound and have picked your target well. This is one of the bigger strengths of the JSA combat orientated HI like the Domaru, Haramaki and particularly the Shikami. You can plan around getting into CC and then leaving it after the order to engage has occurred because from that point on the enemy mode engaged cannot react to anything happening outside the close combat. A lot of the time a charging Domaru or similar will probably kill whatever they engage in one strike but even if they don't the result will be to have neutralised an ARO threat until the combat is resolved and that is something you can decide when to follow up. In some situations it can be an excellent fall-back measure when engaging in short range fire-fights to walk into close combat even though you plan on shooting the opposing model because if the shoot-out fails they are now engaged and you can even leave it to the opponent's turn before resolving the combat any further. The fact that CC is no worse for you in ARO than when compared to the active turn can sometimes help you when the opponent doesn't have anything nearby that might be able to rescue their active model from combat. So engaging in ARO or just finishing your move in base to base after the face to face shoot-out can be worthwhile because of the pressure it puts on the opponent to resolve the combat. [Minor anecdote here, one particular game I played where this type of situation came up was against an opponent using Armand Le Muet who was ensconced up in a tower with an excellent view of the table. I successfully infiltrated an oniwaban right next to him in hidden deployment. The opponent had first turn and ordered Le Muet to begin firing on my TAG. I responded with ARO's from the TAG, a sniper and the oniwaban who engaged. Unable to split fire into all the AROs Le Muet let the oniwaban engage and then had to decide whether to continue combat because until he did, Le Muet was playing no further part of the game. It would take far too many orders to get anyone to them. In the end he decided to risk CC with the oniwaban and was duly cut in half for his troubles.] Infinity is not a game based around close combat and people hacking each other apart with sharp implements but close combat is part of the game and the current system they have works pretty well in my opinion. It is a useful tool to be exploited in the right circumstances but much like hacking, can't be something you base your whole game around.
  6. They are not necessary, you are free to use pretty much whatever you like and find works for you. My list is an example of what I would field when trying to put a pair of O'yoroi into a single list. If you don't want to take remotes then you could use the points to fill out the link and/or get a kempetai for chain of command. I really like the pangguling with the O'yoroi though because of baggage allowing you to reload disposable weapons and equipment (like d-charges and koalas). It's an excellent synergy alongside the other benefits of baggage (particularly in scenarios) but certainly not an integral or essential part of the list design. So if we drop the remotes and downgrade one of the FO to a regular keisotsu we can replace them with a Kempetai and another regular keisotsu bringing that up to a full link of 2 FO, 2 basic combi-rifles and the boarding shotgun kempetai. There are other options and combinations you can use for the points as well, it just depends on what models you want to use and how you can make them fit into a list.
  7. I've not tried running two O'yoroi in the same list this edition but I see no reason why it shouldn't work. I have run an O'yoroi and a Guija, which did ok but wasn't brilliant. For the purposes of bringing multiple tags I would probably side with taking JSA. The O'yoroi is that little bit cheaper and comes with koalas which provide very useful defensive tech against unexpected surprises. Just make sure to bring baggage so you can reload them. This is probably close to what I'd run for a double O'Yoroi list. Japanese Sectorial Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── 10 O-YOROI Lieutenant HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (3 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. (0) O-YOROI HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 83) O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. (0) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14) YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Total Reaction, Repeater) Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) 5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army Somewhat vulnerable to Lt hunting but plenty of specialists and enough options to have some fun.
  8. Even as someone who likes to use underdog profiles I find the Zhanying a bit difficult to put into lists. In theory the haris option works very nicely with a Hsien plus either the missile launcher option or the hacker profile. With the former you probably go with a HMG Hsien and they form a very solid ARO link, whilst the latter works nicely with a tinbot Hsien (since the benefits apply to the whole team). However by themselves they are a bit of a harder sell. Their cost is close enough to other (often Heavy infantry options) to make their single wound look like the poorer choice. A couple of noteworthy points though, sixth sense has a neat interaction during the active turn. If you put down smoke and walk in front of enemy MSV2 troops (or camo tokens you suspect may have MSV2... frigging nomads...) then if they ARO you will get to shoot at them as if the smoke wasn't there. Particularly nice on the HMG option who is relatively inexpensive and costs only 1 SWC. The other feature they possess that is situationally useful is bio-immunity. If you face a lot of shock or viral weapons then their value goes up a little, particularly against viral weapons (since they only have to make a single roll) against which they nearly on par with many of our cheaper heavy infantry. The HMG is the option I've used most and it's been quite impressive, the low SWC cost is helpful and it's good to nearly always be able to bring an unconscious model back.
  9. Entirely dependent on the rest of the list. In ISS i've run a pair to take advantage of Duo so both load outs came to play. In vanilla it comes down to what other toys I'm bringing at the time. If I'm already taking some solid mid to long range big guns then I'll go with the shotgun because compared to a Yan Huo, Hact toa or Hsien the Su jian's spitfire just isn't as threatening (even though it's much easier to get into good positions) and with something like the HMRC covering the board opponents tend to hide their models making it much easier for the Su jian to get up close. If my list is more rounded with less focus on a couple of dominant big guns then the spitfire wins out due to the mobility. The su jian can get anywhere and the spitfire is a much more flexible and reliable weapon in general so it is the better option if you don't have a specific plan for it. Spitfire for general problem solving so any list where you just want a dependable model to 'Rambo' around the table. Heavy shotgun when you know your opponent is likely to hide stuff out of sight and play a more defensive game. This loadout also tends to be slightly stronger against enemy lists with lots of camo, ODD and TO models in my own experience. At short range the shotgun is still likely to hit and win any face to face rolls but you've got the light flamer thrower as well for those times when the opponent only has things like rifles. The combination of shotgun and flamer is very useful in these short range exchanges because the opponent has to think carefully about how they react. If they try to dodge the Su jian goes with the shotgun (even against TO when you're in short range you're hitting on 14s) but if they shoot, which can be marginally better or worse than dodging, depending on PH, you can flame them to burn off their camo and probably kill them.
  10. I wasn't clear but I was talking about dodging as an ARO.
  11. To me it's an interesting list and as others have pointed out double Hsien HMGs is quite a rare sight. (They are entirely worth it though.) The Hsien stand out as your main obvious workhorses and smoke can give them an easier time advancing and shooting in your active turn. The celestial guard with smoke can be quite far away from them since good range for the weapon stretches out to 16" away letting her chuck her smoke cloud across a sizeable chunk of the table. So you can deploy her and the Hsien in quite separate locations. In fact putting her quite centrally and one Hsien on each flank could work quite nicely depending on terrain and fire lanes. Just so long as she can put a cloud in front of them in good range using at most a single short move skill. (Preferably staying out of sight from the other side of the table.) This could be quite a good tactic going first. Alternatively, instead of keeping the Hsien apart you could have them a little closer and use them to bait enemy hackers so that the Ninja can ARO them whilst they try to hack your Hsien (you'll still get to reset with Hsien as well). Using hidden deployment makes it quite easy to play all sorts of mind games but this is one of the more straightforward tactics for when you haven't brought much defence against enemy hackers. Have the ninja hidden deploy in the mid-field so that to get to the Hsien the enemy hacker/repeater will have to pass by and/or be likely to operate within zone of control of the ninja. (Placement here can be tricky.) Although it's nice to have fairy dust or a similar defensive hacking programme to help defend your Hsien they are naturally quite resilient. Even if the opponent just sets up a repeater hoping to force you into a tough decision during your turn, since killer hackers never suffer firewall mods you'll be able to use their repeater to hack them. Although this is very risky when the opponent has multiple hackers in their list. The value of this is quite dependent on the opponent you face. I can see the list working very differently depending whether you are going first or second. Going second for a list like this can be tricky due to low model count and two prominent high value targets. Deploying to allow AROs leaves you vulnerable to enemy heavy hitters (Hsien are good but you're still likely to lose in a shoot-out against an active turn enemy HMG) and castling up too strongly will give the opponent too much board position, boxing you in clustering models leaves you prey to template weapons and shotguns. Going first is straight-forward (especially with a pair of Hsien HMGs) but your first turn order pool will be small. Since you have 2 models that will start off-table it's quite likely that opponents will give you first turn if there is an advantage to going second. (Supremacy is a good example of that.) Since after they've spent a command token to reduce your order pool there'll only be 6 orders to get work done on the first turn. This makes the tiger incredibly valuable for it's ability to deploy in the right place to get work done immediately. It's not always possible but great when you can and tigers are very deadly with their combi-rifles at killing grunts and support. It all depends on how you and your opponent deploy though. Your list will make very good use of suppressive fire. The pheasant rank with chain of command is good thanks to his x-visor but the tiger is also great due to mimetism and the Hsien get good work out of it too. (In reaction it makes them a lot tougher to take down at short ranges due to the shift in range bands, alongside the -3 to hit penalty and burst bonus.) Good luck and I hope you have fun with it.
  12. Your observations are pretty accurate and I would describe Musashi as an aesthetic choice rather than a strategic one. If you want to take him then it's all about knowing how to get the most out of him. First thing in his favour is that he brings CC ability equal to shinobu for nearly half the cost. He lacks any of the shenanigans, (hidden deployment, smoke or even a combi-rifle) but does have no wound incap' a chain rifle and a WiP 15 flash pulse. That flash pulse is really good. His kinematica level 2 also means he moves quite fast dodging around the place as well. Main thing is that he's only 24pts and suffers from neither impetuous or frenzy. Being irregular is irritating but it's not the end of the world. With no wound incap he can survive taking a hit on the way in. You have to choose your moments but it does at least mean that you can be assured that a single combi-rifle or chain rifle shot as you charge in isn't going to end your charge as an unconscious corpse in waiting. He is an very reliable flank guardian, high PH means that enemies with templates will rarely connect and moving 4" each successful dodge he'll get into range to engage very quickly. His chain rifle also means he can respond well against shotgun troops trying to splat you from around a corner. His flash pulse is amongst the most reliable in the faction. Being able to benefit from cover is a big deal when used in this kind of defensive manner. His 6-4 mov is more significant than just an extra couple of inches movement. A 6" cautious move is much more likely to make it across a gap than 4". Similarly he's also more likely to be able to make it to combat in a single move around a corner than other troops. This is something JSA doesn't have particularly comparable alternatives for. Our HI are all 4-4, bikes can't cautious move and although Yojimbo is a comparable melee monster and event faster he's impetuous and likely to have eaten a bullet on the way in. I've only taken him in a few games and rarely has he particularly impressed but one exception was an early small point game where he played buddies with Neko and the two of them dodged their way up the table in reaction whilst a TR bot and keisotsu link provided distracting cover. By the end of my opponents turn both models were unwounded and past the half-way line. They then managed to charge forth and start cutting dog warriors in half.
  13. In JSA my choice of Lt is somewhat predictable. O'Yoroi Domaru Asuka Oyama and just a couple of times an Oniwaban. Cheap chain of command is a factor for some but in my case it's mostly just down to wanting it to be on a useful model that can potentially make good use of that Lt's order. In N3 it's been mostly the O'yoroi because of Tagline games (and with ninja killer hackers and Evo panggulings there's plenty of nice tricks you can pull) where I haven't even brought chain of command because it's not been that much of an issue. Oyama is good, he's quite resilient and a bully in combat whilst being able to link up and bulk out a fireteam which can get him up the field and also makes it a bit harder to get at him too. Asuka is fun, fragile and so fast. Haven't really used her in a while because I haven't been playing bikes but she's the one choice where I would always take that kempetai because she will die. The basic domaru is for when I just can't afford Oyama (for whatever reason). Nice easy choice that can protect a flank and isn't too easy to kill. The oniwaban was for those lists where I was running a Ninja theme. All camo/TO camo lists require some thought regarding your Lt and although Shinobu is a great choice I preferred the option to have her in hidden deployment whilst the Oniwaban Lt hid pretending to be a Raiden or mine. This actually proved to be quite amusing in several games and makes for an interesting set of mind games when people are used to seeing Raiden on the table.
  14. In response to the original question. CB tend to post lists taken from the most successful finishers from the interplanetary but that is about it for posting competitive lists. The ITS rankings doesn't include much information on what particular players use besides noting their faction/sectorial. I don't want to add to the clamour of voices talking about player skill over lists but will say that infinity is incredibly meta dependent. Not just due to the lists run by your local player base but also the tables you play on. This is probably the only system I can think of where the tables and terrain density can so strongly influence list design and success. During the last edition I heard that the different major metas around the world gravitated towards drastically different consensuses over what constituted a well designed infinity table. This has a dramatic and incredible impact on list design as the type of lists that will succeed on densely packed city style tables rarely do as well on outpost inspired settlement styled tables with large open areas. It's impossible to adequately describe how much terrain and board design can influence lists. Then there are the missions... Infinity tournaments often use the same missions that the organisers have decided work best for the event they want to run. Others will use less popular missions to add a bit of spice and something different to the event. A list designed to excel in Frontline probably won't be as good for Rescue. Nimbus zone and Biotechvore are other scenarios which require rather different types of list and are generally seen as less popular scenarios for events but that is no guarantee that they won't be used or have been used when looking up successful lists.
  15. I do not see the Daofei being in the starter. On the other hand Yu jing have a distinct lack of tinbot models so I really wouldn't mind if they included one. I'm hoping for something completely new in the starter but we'll have to wait and see. I do also want to see a new shang ji sculpt quite badly.