Prophet_of_Doom

Does Ariadna have spaceships?

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Do the Ariadnans have their own space ships? I have read the background, but am unsure about this. If no, how do they get to Paradiso?

If they do have spaceships, I wonder why they are unable to build motorbikes, TAGs and train Hackers. Not that I miss any of this in the game. Just thinking along the background.

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my best guess based on what fluff i know of Ariadne...no they dont have their own spaceships. As for getting to the warfront on Paradiso....either they are ferried by allies Pan-O, Bureau Aegis, ALEPH, or they just transport their troops via the Circulars.

Also of note if they do have any...dropships or destroyers and cruisers, they could have been bought from one of the other nations in exchange from that which Ariadne has lots of ....Teseum

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This is a really good question... Although in regards to their lack of TAGs I would say this is due to the overall lower technology of Ariadna, which involves a gap in learning, you can't just give a gun to a zulu and expect him to build his own after all. (sorry if that offended anyone, first example I could think of.

As for motorbikes they almost definately have them, they just don't use them in combat, like Pan-O and those guys are knights you'd think a motorhorse would be appealing to them.

As for the hacker thing... I'm going to have to go with the technology gap answer again.

Edit: Ah scooped by Kuranai-san, meant to mention something about the possibilty of buying ships/transportation as well.

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This is a really good question... Although in regards to their lack of TAGs I would say this is due to the overall lower technology of Ariadna, which involves a gap in learning, you can't just give a gun to a zulu and expect him to build his own after all. (sorry if that offended anyone, first example I could think of.

As for motorbikes they almost definately have them, they just don't use them in combat, like Pan-O and those guys are knights you'd think a motorhorse would be appealing to them.

As for the hacker thing... I'm going to have to go with the technology gap answer again.

Edit: Ah scooped by Kuranai-san, meant to mention something about the possibilty of buying ships/transportation as well.

Makes some sense. So they couldn't build space ships, but maintenance the ships they got? Lots of real nations do that with military hardware. Ok, if they can maintenance a space ship, the Ariadnans should be able to have hackers. That bit remains weird.

About the Zulus... I don't think that is offensive, it is just historically correct. Many cultures used firearms to fight the European invaders but were not able to build guns themselves for reasons of the culture's technological development at the point of invasion.

You obviously can fire guns even though you are not able to build them, but if a nation has people who know how to navigate and repair a space ship, they should have people who know how to hack.

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Well, they do have space ports. They do, IIRC, have an orbital station (the Cossacks administrate it). Therefore I suppose they are able to maintain and perhaps build their own interface craft (read: surface-to-orbit transports, likey spaceplanes or shuttles).

Keep in mind that Ariadna is technologically backward... by the standards of other Infinity nations.

...okay, what nations? PanO, the glittering jewel of technology and Yu Jing, who aspire to outperform PanO.

The Nomads have lots of interesting and innovative tech, true. Haqq are advanced enough to engage in info-war (but their TAG is PanO buildt... oh wait, Nomad TAGs are outdated, surplus PanO models too, just the nomads modified the hell out of them). Aleph seems to have a lot of its gear PanO buildt (though it is more expensicve than PanO army can afford, generally.

But still Ariadna is somewhat better than Earth in early XXI century: look around, we have interface craft and orbital stations, but no Infinity-style hackers or TAGs. A simple space-capable rocket requires tech level of 1950s.

Also, I assume the Ariadnans prefer simpler, cheaper and easier to maintain technologies. An anecdote - though true - to illustrate it:

In the era of early spaceflight it was discovered that an ordinary pen doesn't work in zero-gravity. still, a wrtitng instrument was indispensable for noting down mission observations. The rpoblem was the same for the Americans and the Russians alike, but how did they solved it?

The Americans spent a whole heap of money, and developed an advanced "space" pen that does work just fine in null-gravity.

The Russians equipped their astronauts with pencils. Pencils never had any issues with lack of gravity.

Now, the question is - do Ariadna have their own starships (vessels capable of intestellar travel thorough wormholes)?

The answer, however, is a question too: do they need them?

See, you don't need tech level required for building one to have one. You just buy it from someone who knows how to build them. I suppose the Haqq don't build most of their merchant, corsair and war fleet - this is high technology, and high tech aren't their speciality. But PanO and Yu Jing surely can build whatever starship you order, provided you can afford it. Or buy an old, tenth-hand starship cheap and have a Nomad shipyard modify it into whatever you want and pay for (I suppose that's how most corsair ships are made).

So, if the Ariadna wants to operate their own starships, they can have them. However, do they need them?

I've always assumed the Circulars are something close to the Spacing Guild's Liners from Dune: immense ships that carry smaller craft with their passengers and cargo. You have to move the cargo from planetary surface to the circular, and the Circular will take it to another star system. As the rules of sea transport say, the bigger the ship is, the cheaper is to move one ton of cargo with it.

I'm sure the warships of the nations in Infinity are Jump/wormhole capable, and there are private ships that can do it too (operated by those who can't or don't want to wiat for a convenient Circular) - but going by Circular is preferred because it is cheaper.

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good points Errhile, YJ, PA seem to be about the only powers who due to the number of holdings, ambition, desire to defend territories etc to build interstellar ships....

haqq like ariadne have no need to worry about trying to build their own...all they have to do is wave silk in PO or YJs direction or O12 for that matter, and the superpowers will gladly sell them ships.

I think O12 and ALEPH just buy Pan-O corporation built stuff cause as the fluff says its the best in teh human sphere.

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I'm sure Ariadna has a couple of their own. Probably not built themselves but from the other powers of the Human Sphere. That tesuem is probably worth something, right? What's not to say Ariadna just pays for transport from the Nomads or Haqq.

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Thanks for the elaborate answer! So in fewer words, Ariadna prefers to hire space ships or to buy old ones in case of need and don't have the technology / know-how to train hackers which would be up to the level of PanO or Yu Ying (and are thus irrelevant for the game)?

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I think the Ariadnans don't need the hackers for a couple of reasons. One their tech level doesn't need the assistance of a hacker to protect data networks of their Heavy Infantry on the ground as they can't be hacked. Another is would the other factions really train the Ariandnans to be hackers? The advanced level of tech that the other factions have already gets bombarded most of the time by hackers from the other powers. Do they really want to give that power to the Ariadnans? I don't think so.

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I assume so.

Please not that Ariadna don't have Cubes, either - and both Hacking Device and Cubes are based on the same technology: quantronic processors. Now quantum computers are a damn advanced tech, if you ask me, and those rare ones you find among Haqq soldiers I could easily assume are imported too.

I'd speculate the Ariadna combat style had grown from their internal squabbles and fighting the Antipodes. Neither of these has any use for info-warfare. Fighting other Human Sphere powers? C'mon, the Ariadnans do it pretty well using the old ways. After all, what good is hacking an HI to immobilise it untill reset, if you can hack it apart for good with a big nasty sword or axe?

Also, training combat hackers is expensive. If we take points value as a representation of how much time, effort and resources has to be put into training & equipping a soldier, then (assuming that the HD cost is 12 pts) you could field 2 Line Kazaks for the cost of one (hypotethical) Line Kazak Hacker - and would have some resources left after that!

Now, what do you use hackers for?

1. Fielding REMs. The Ariadnans had no REMs at all untill the era of Traktor Mul. And even this one uses a simple and cheap control device (actually free, points-wise, IIRC) instead of an expensive Hacking Device.

2. Hacking defensively. If you have nothing hackable on your list, you don't need that anyway.

3. Hacking offensively against enemy HI, REMs and TAGs. This is difficult, and requires either to have a developed field Repeater network (which poses a lot of problems for my QK, as deployable repeaters are rare, and build in repeaters are common on REMs only in my sectorial) or get close to the opponent. And once you get close - hacking with a sword is a way cheaper option.

4. Frying enemy hackers. works both ways.

5. Hacking AD L3 transports. Nice, but (at BTS -9) pretty difficult. Can do without it.

6. Hacking GML spam. OK, that's a good reason to have hackers. Then again, there are ways around it.

And if you find it absolutely necessary, outsource some talent. The Merovinginas do hire Nomad hackers...

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On a related note, Japan bought many of their warships from Britain, back before the Japanese could build their own first-rate warships. If your first priority is to build up your country's/planet's economy, you can outsource some of the bleeding-edge stuff for a while.

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I personally imagine Ariadna as having a small number of advanced Venture Star type of shuttles controlled by the Russians.

Ariadna should still be 30 to 50 years ahead of us and the other human factions about 175 years ahead.

I think of the hacking issues something like this.

If Ariadna is using solid state electronics for their tech, the other factions might be using quantum computers and this is just too different from what Ariadna uses that their programers just can hack them.

The reverse may also be true, as the old programing codes used by Ariadna seem like reading the Dead Sea scrolls to the other factions.

Something like that happen with the Space Shuttles.

Some of their computer subsystems where originally designed and programed in the early 1970's and when they wanted to update those systems in the late 1990's, they had to pull programers out of retirement to do it, as there was no one left at NASA who knew how the old software worked.

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I think errwhile makes a really good point of do the Ariadnans even need spaceships? They still have a largely uninhabited planet rich in highly valuble natural resources, so they're no resource shortage or overpopulation issues pushing them into the stars. And anything on a smaller level then that they can probably get by by renting space on one thing or another.

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I would assume they would have some need of spaceships, at least orbit to surface ships.

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They have a spaceport at Matyr, and they also successfully completed the first part of colonization, which is to build an orbital station for assistance, I believe. With that in mind, one can infer that they at least had shuttles to ferry colonists and/or supplies from the orbital station to the colony. So I'd say yes.

As far as escort type ships that make rounds with the Circulars, I doubt it. They've been too preoccupied with just surviving on Dawn to have to worry about building spaceships.

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Well they have been on the planet for more than a hundred years.

It seems like they should be passed that hard survival stage.

Sense re-making contact with Earth, they may have been motivated to build some kind of "system defense boat".

That is, a small armed ship capable of traveling within their system but not through a wormhole.

I can't imaging that they wouldn't try and buy at least an old wormhole capable ship off of one of the factions.

They might only have a very small handful of this ships.

This is all just a personal opinion, but story wise I think, it would be better if they have a few small wormhole ships.

It opens up more possibilities of diverse battle locations.

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Well they have been on the planet for more than a hundred years.

It seems like they should be passed that hard survival stage.

Well yes, but you forget that they've been in a perpetual state of war since their arrival on Dawn. With the Antipode and Separatist wars, and more recently with the Ariadnan commercial conflicts.

Not much time to make spaceships when you're making bullets instead. :_aww__rvmp_by_bad_blood:

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But from orbit you can drop Teseum/tungsten telephone poles on the guys down below. :)

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But from orbit you can drop Teseum/tungsten telephone poles on the guys down below. :)

Ah, got to love some kinetic rods raining down on the enemies heads.

I'm guessing the the Kazaks would have a pretty good strangle hold on the space fairing stuff, right?

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Yep, Kazaks don't share their toys.

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Sounds like a kazak thing, although the Merovingians are all about control of transport and communication so maybe they have a finger or two in it.

Also wanted to comment that all my other posts I was thinking of deep space craft, didn't even consider you might mean something as simple as just orbital capable craft. Which they should have access too, maybe even beyond simple great big bomb with people strapped to it style.

And who would waste time building spaceships out of Teseum? There's swords and whisky cups to be made!!

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Teseum, as we are told, is hard and labour-consuming to process. Which is why there aren't so many elements of equipment made of it.

Making spaceships would require a lot of teseum, and advanced production capability. Besides, there's simply no need for it. There might be extra armor plates made of teseum on Ariadnan combat spacecraft for added duarbility, but I think an all- (or mainly) teseum construction just wouldn't be practical.

I do agree with Tommygun on Ariadnan starships, including warships. While their own technological level and industrial base might be not able to produce anything much better than a surface-to-orbit spaceplane, or intra-system transport (a lighter / tug to transfer cargo & passengers between a Circular and the orbital station), there's nothing to stop them from purchasing patrol craft, escorts, or even full-fledged warships from other parties.

The only questio will be - what do they need, and how much can they afford. Some wormhole-capable courier craft, I'm sure. Perhaps some transports. Likely intra-system defense craft.

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Tommy, have you ever played Tom Clancy's Endwar before?

Kinetic bombardment in action:

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Seems like the space ship question is answered already. As for the Hackers:

I would imagen that Ariadna just lacks combat hackers. There surely are some individuals that could hack something.

But Combat Hackers like the other nations have them, need either be trained very hart or have grown up with it, so that it comes more natural to them, so that in the heat of a battle they till can do there thing and improvise if necessary.

They also might just lack the advanced hacking software thats needed to combat hack.

And there are some Hackers without Cubes, like the Alguacil and Ghulam. I can also imagine that the Alguacil in the Merovinga, could also represent a Hacker from Ariadna, he has nothing special at all (outside his Combi rifle maybe). So he might be the best Hacker in Adriana but compared to the HS he is just average.

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