TheMatsjo

Tohaa Desires - A Fan Errata Compendium

92 posts in this topic

Hey there,

 

I've been reading along in this thread with a lot of interest over the last few days, and I was modestly surprised at the amount of in-faction criticism our beloved Tohaa were getting! Even for a starting faction it seems that a notable number of Tohaa fans and players (that are active on this site) feel that Tohaa are paying a disproportionate amount of points for the tools we're getting. I've decided to put some of the main arguments forward as a collection here, to discuss the perceived problems and put out some coherent 'fixes' we'd be content with. I am by no means an experienced player, I'm just one that likes to do these kinds of things, so there'll be no 'Matsjo Thinks he Knows Best' from my end :D. Without further ado, sorted by model or mechanic, here are the main gripes that I've been reading about; keep in mind that these are not necessarily my opinions, they are summations of what I've read from others. Enjoy.

 

Gorgos :blush:

The Gorgos is the 'big one', so I thought it'd be best if I put it up first. Where to begin.. well, the first thing everyone mentions is the weakness to fire; expensive models suffer way more from the Symbiont weakness to fire, and the Gorgos gets the brunt of the disadvantage; however I'll discuss Symbiont Armor under its own heading because it goes for other Tohaa models as well. In any case, the Gorgos is apparently too fragile, its weapons aren't anything special for the cost, it doesn't distinguish itself in its use compared to other Tohaa fighters (do TAGs ignore Guts checks?) and even then it pays more points for the options it does get. Even if it turns out to be a small-based model I'd be surprised if most players will warm up to it.

 

Ectros :blush:

I don't see the Ectros getting as much flak, at least not the HMG variant, but a lot of the same criticisms seem to apply to it; a too-high vulnerability to fire and a function that does not distinguish itself from Tohaa's LI or MI sufficiently. It does its job in securing a section of the table with its effective W3, but the lack of V:Courage can make even that a risky proposition at time compared to the 2 Sakiel you could bring for its cost.

 

Neema :blush:

Neema is an Ectros technically, but suffers from 'extremely-obvious-LT' syndrome, without the benefit of a low cost. WIP15 is nice, but seeing as every other Tohaa model has WIP13 it'll be instantly clear whether or not she's your Lt. This could be fixed with a Chain of Command model, but we don't have those. And even when bringing Neema she's expensive in SWC and doesn't bring anything special to bear.

 

Gao-Rael :blush:

Most commonly I read two objections to the Gao-Rael; its slow speed and its lack of a Viral Sniper option. These are simple enough, and understandable; it's weird to have a 4-2 model in Triads that are stuffed with 4-4 models, the Raels slow your entire operation down, while it's actually only slight more (-3BTS) heavily armored as the Sakiel, and less armored than the Ectros. Sure, you can elect to have the Rael to jump out of its skin, but that seems like a choice resulting from bad design. Paying 1SWC for Sniper rifle in a faction supposedly known for their Viral weaponry is possible, but it just seems strange, especially since the Gao-Rael lacks an other Viral option.

 

Defensive Hacking Device & Nullifier :blush:

1SWC for a Hacking Device, and a Defensive variant at that? Tohaa players aren't  clamoring for more offensive hacking, but paying over market price for a sub-par tool (unless you're taking a Hatail hacker) is kinda mean. The Nullifier is a very cool piece of kit, and the reason I don't think we need more ways of defending ourselves against hacking, but it's also 0.5 or 1 SWC a piece and requires the model to bring the least-powerful weapon options it can.

 

Symbiont Armor :blush:

'A figure possessing a Symbiont Armor, Active or Inactive, which fails its ARM Roll when receiving a hit from FIRE Special Ammunition, will pass automatically to a Dead state, no matter how many Wounds it has, and is removed from the game table.'

 

It says it all doesn't it. I think most Tohaa players don't mind the weakness to fire, some even like it, but the extent to which Symbiont Armor is weak to fire makes the use of multi-wound models a very risky proposition indeed. A single unlucky save against flamer shot can burn 47-87 points to the ground. It's not so bad for Sakiel, Gao-Tarsos and Gao-Rael because the extra wound the Symbiont Armor gives is usually viewed as such a huge advantage that a check for it seems appropriate. But above the effect W2 it becomes problematic. Therefore there's been a quite widespread desire to amend the rule or to give Symbiont Armor multiple Lvls.

 

Fireteam:Tohaa :blush:

This is a smaller one, but it comes up from time to time so I'll include it here: being able to reform only a single Fireteam per turn (with the Lieutenant Order) is a pretty stiff limitation when you're losing 2-3 models in your Reactive turn; because so much of the effectiveness of Tohaa models relies on Order efficiency, losing one of your Triads for a turn is quite the hamstringing event.

 

Some suggestions :huh:

Some of the criticisms I agree with, and I'll put up some suggestions that I think are in line with what would be reasonable changes; ones that could actually happen.

 

- The Gao-Rael's Sniper option should become either AP and stay the same cost, or become Viral and the Rael should cost more points.

- The Defensive Hacking Device SWC cost should go down to 0.5.

- Symbiont Armor should be changed to have 2 Lvls:

Symbiont Armor Lvl1: the standard Symbiont rules as we have them now.

Symbiont Armor Lvl2: instead of dying to fire, the wearer of the Symbiont Armor can immediately jump out of its Armor and the fire expires; I'd call this the Altruist version of the Symbiont Armor. This means that the heavies don't immediately die when suffering a burn, but they do get brought down significantly in a way that is coherent with the Tohaa story.

 

A note on hacking :huh:

I've been thinking for a while that Symbiont Armor shouldn't be vulnerable to hacking, but I've changed my mind. The Ectros and Gorgos have good BTS, and if immobilized they can immediately shed the Armor and still fight on. In addition a (properly costed) Hacking Device and Nullifier should make it even harder to hack Tohaa heavies; I think this aspect of the Armor is fine atm.

 

So what are your thoughts on all these things, did I miss any crucial points, do you have any other (better) suggestions?

 

Cheers.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do agree with the Gorgos. However...

 

This is kind of like asking for MSVL2 and TO camo for Ariadna, and keeping their T2 weapons and frothing Scots.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Neema, LT WIP no longer needs to be declared during the roll-off, according to the current ITS rules.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to say not what i want to fix, but what i want to see in tohaa army.

 

1. Some kind of defensive unit for a triad

Tohaa are weak in reactive turn due to no SS-2, 360 visors and such. I'd like to see some unit similar to odalisque, so at least one member of a fire team will be able to defend. The downside is that such a unit will be an obvious choice.

 

2. More specialized weaponry

Cmon, CB, Tohaa are not Muslims in SPAAAACE, they are aliens! Give them more weird weaponry. Hedgehog grenades, chacksa grenades, e/m lash for some stupid 0"-8" anime CC action, stun guns, whatever. Sure, even Combined doesn't have a lot of this - plasma, Sepsitor and that's it, but... Please?

 

Also, i don't like the idea of Chacksa sectorial. They are cool models, but a whole sectorial is a bit over the top. Colonial army with enhanced brainwashed shock troops of different origin and tohaa specialists would better fit their style.

 

On the subject of Neema, LT WIP no longer needs to be declared during the roll-off, according to the current ITS rules.

Still she's only good for being a lieutenant. Anything else - Ektros with HMG is better

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, other than the Gorgos, the other units are rather good. Some units just have downsides, every faction has them, thats just the way it is.

 

The Defensive Hacking device is odd, I agree. Either its defensive or it should be expensive. Both seems just over the top. Or CB really doesn't want Tohaa to be able to hack.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only gripe, is the Gorgos, personally. I can deal with all the other issues, hey, you gotta have some weaknesses. But that darn TAG. Maybe, just maybe if it turns out to be small based.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Defensive Hacking Devices, it costs twice the SWC but half the points of a regular Hacking Device.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Gorgos - you don't like your TAG? Don't use it. There are armies that lack TAGs altogether. And there are TAGs inferior to Gorgos, save for that unique vulnerability to fire. 

Then again, fire weapons aren't that common, and the ones that are not Direct Template Flamethrowers are rather rare. IMO you are blowing the problem out of proportion...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Defensive Hacking Devices, it costs twice the SWC but half the points of a regular Hacking Device.

 

Yeah, I just saw that too, after I posted it, so I guess thats rather fair. Especially with all the Viral weapons that don't necessarily need the SWC anyways.

 

EDIT: I guess the best TAG to compare the Gorgos to is the Seraph, and even though the Seraph doesn't get much play in general, it still looks better than the Gorgos on paper.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think much depends on how it actually feels on the board. With TAGs, actual model size does matter a lot.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@ Gorgos - you don't like your TAG? Don't use it. There are armies that lack TAGs altogether. And there are TAGs inferior to Gorgos, save for that unique vulnerability to fire. 

Then again, fire weapons aren't that common, and the ones that are not Direct Template Flamethrowers are rather rare. IMO you are blowing the problem out of proportion...

The paradiso book did introduce a lot more fire, HRLs are as close to a counter to Tohaa as you can get.

 

 

About the defensive hacking device, it's a bit nice that is lower points but the swc hurts a lot in some campaign scenarios where you have to have a hacker. It is easliy 2 or 3 swc on that. Also a viral sniper option for the Gao-Rael or clipso would be interesting.

 

More interesting toys would be ice, like sensor HI or meta chemistry units.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The paradiso book did introduce a lot more fire, HRLs are as close to a counter to Tohaa as you can get.

Oh it did.

Question: how many of these are available?

And they tend to cost a lot, too, points- and SWC-wise. Plus you still have to score a hit and then a wound with them.

 

Vulcan Shotguns are available, if memory serves me, to a few Morats only. Are there any Flammenspeer outside of Tohaa?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fireteam:Tohaa  :blush:

This is a smaller one, but it comes up from time to time so I'll include it here: being able to reform only a single Fireteam per turn (with the Lieutenant Order) is a pretty stiff limitation when you're losing 2-3 models in your Reactive turn; because so much of the effectiveness of Tohaa models relies on Order efficiency, losing one of your Triads for a turn is quite the hamstringing event.

 

 

This is one I brought up.

I still think that having a new skill Fireteam: Tohaa lvl 2 would be a simple solution.

Personally i like the idea of spreading that over a few units' basic profiles in the same way as Haris is; but the other alternative is to limit it to 1 unit and give that unit a few different loadouts.

 

IE: Haris is spread over the basic profiles of 2(currently) QK troops (Odalisque and Sekban) but there's also the special linking ability of the Hafza which is unique to them and is relevant to all their loadouts.

 

Personally i feel that a lot of the issues with Tohaa will cease to be issues as we see more units released in the future and I believe we'll be seeing some new units gradually trickle out well before Acheron Falls.

 

Access to new weaponry is simply a case of adding new profiles and units, easy.

 

As for the GaoRael, i'd like him to be 4-4 sure, but i think he currently seems more incongruous as there aren't any other 4-2 troops in Tohaa, if we start getting a few more, it might be easier to include a GaoRael in a triad without feeling like you're hamstringing the other troops in said triad, and better access to longer range weaponry could also help

 

Perhaps a good troop for this could be the 'defensive' troop that's been discussed IE: SS lvl2 /  360 visor etc.

 

As for Symbiont level 2 for the Ectros/ Gorgos, i think it makes sense.

It's perhaps less relevant for the Ectros, but the Gorgos really does suffer.

 

As others have stated, part of the way is to amend the Perifical and general weaponry, but i still think Symbiont armour is too big a disadvantage for any large multiwound models and some of the suggested changes for Sym Arm lvl 2 are still pretty nasty.

 

regarding ava of fire, perhaps your meta is different, but i've seen large amounts of fire since Paradiso, and as a Haqq and Nomad player i regularly ensure i have some nasty fire troops regardless of whether i'm playing Tohaa or not.

 

Apologies for the sprawling and poorly layed out post., i'm trying to do about 5 things at once here

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the subject of Neema, LT WIP no longer needs to be declared during the roll-off, according to the current ITS rules.

 

Really, then how do you know which player gets to choose deployment or turn during regular games? Which file is it in the Downloads section?

 

About the defensive hacking device, it's a bit nice that is lower points but the swc hurts a lot in some campaign scenarios where you have to have a hacker. It is easliy 2 or 3 swc on that.

That's kinda my thing too, I don't mind the 'Defensive' part, more the SWC cost.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The paradiso book did introduce a lot more fire, HRLs are as close to a counter to Tohaa as you can get.

 

 

About the defensive hacking device, it's a bit nice that is lower points but the swc hurts a lot in some campaign scenarios where you have to have a hacker. It is easliy 2 or 3 swc on that. Also a viral sniper option for the Gao-Rael or clipso would be interesting.

 

More interesting toys would be ice, like sensor HI or meta chemistry units.

 

Meanwhile every single Lt. in the Tohaa army is SWC 0, or in Neema's case, a reduced SWC over her standard profile. With BTS-6 and BTS-9 (+non-possession) on your only hackable units, it's not like a defensive hacker is all that necessary. I've blown an entire turn's worth of orders trying to hack a single unprotected Asura and failed. I've certainly not had much success finishing off a hacked Ectros because of their supporting link buddies.

 

I'm sure Ariadna wouldn't mind a Defensive Hacking Device for 1SWC.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TheMatsjo - it's in the ITS organised play PDF. You still roll as normal, it's just that instead of declaring the WIP and 'I passed/failed' you just say 'I passed/failed'. The only time the actual WIP would be revealed is if a crit makes you win the roll-off.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Lampy: Agreed, that hasn't struck me as a big problem for Tohaa;  likewise the easy Lt games are something the Haqq in me really enjoys.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Tohaa having weak spots in their list and weapon/equipment availabilty.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Meanwhile every single Lt. in the Tohaa army is SWC 0, or in Neema's case, a reduced SWC over her standard profile. With BTS-6 and BTS-9 (+non-possession) on your only hackable units, it's not like a defensive hacker is all that necessary. I've blown an entire turn's worth of orders trying to hack a single unprotected Asura and failed. I've certainly not had much success finishing off a hacked Ectros because of their supporting link buddies.

 

I'm sure Ariadna wouldn't mind a Defensive Hacking Device for 1SWC.

Some scenarios do require hackers specifically and not engineers if I rember right, and in most of the other cases it is hacker/engineer where the Tohaa engineer is ava 2. Its more of a slight annoyance for some scenarios than a real big problem.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope. There are missions where a Hacker can get you some extra points, for example blocking data uploads in 101, but there are no missions that require you to have a Hacker to complete the mission.

Otherwise it would literally be impossible for Caledonians to complete the campaign if you were playing in hardcore mode.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Tohaa vulnerability to fire is as big a trap as it is a weakness. In my last game, I lost a Lunokhod and an Iguana trying to dig out an Ektros. I killed quite a few other units as a result but it was extremely bloody and Tohaa can play the ARO game like nobody else save Bakunin or maybe QK whilst being incredibly mobile.

 

The Gao Rael Sniper is also evil. You may moan about the lack of Viral or DA ammo, but the fact is that the Gao Rael is basically a light HI with MSVL2. With a Sniper Rifle.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tohaa can play the ARO game like nobody else

Yeah, nobody else doesn't have access to at least some form of SS2.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

--Re: Gao Rael--

 

I'd take a look at other MSV2-3 models in the game to see what their movement is like.  Aquila Guard (MSV3), Charontid (MSV3), Djanbazan (MSV2), Intruder (MSV2), Hsien (MSV2); these are all 4-2.  Yu Jing does have a 6-4 and a 4-4 MSV2, but I'd argue that this seems like it's supposed to be an ISS specialty.

 

I don't think the Gao Rael is weak at all.  A regular SR MSV2 becomes very interesting at B3 (noticeably better than a mk12 for very little cost), and a B5 Spitfire MSV2 is very silly indeed.  I don't think that every faction needs fast MSVs, nor do I think that the Gao Rael needs viral lunacy to shine.

 

--Re: Gorgos--

 

It would take a miracle for someone to convince me that the Gorgos is good, or even passable.  Gorgos, meet Tiger Soldier/Naffatun/Chasseur/Auxbot/Devabot/etc.  This may be a function of my meta (lots of these units around), but I find the Gorgos to be overpriced and, frankly, worse than the Seraph - which was, in my opinion, the "worst" TAG in the game before Paradiso.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, nobody else doesn't have access to at least some form of SS2.

 

Outside of Fireteams, Sixth Sense 2 is incredibly rare. Off the top of my head, the only units with it are Securitate, Veteran Kazaks and Odalisques.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hast had an idea for the Gorgos: Why not give it an Ejection System and make the operator a Sakiel kind of unit? So you have to get of the Symbiont armor a second time.

 

That way you its not totally lost to fire, but still pretty vulnerable.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Outside of Fireteams, Sixth Sense 2 is incredibly rare. Off the top of my head, the only units with it are Securitate, Veteran Kazaks and Odalisques.

 

Indeed.  And if you're not playing a sectorial (which admittedly seems increasingly rare these days), that means you don't have access to it unless you're playing one of those factions.  And, let's face it...how often do Nomads take a Securitate?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites