TheMatsjo

Tohaa Desires - A Fan Errata Compendium

92 posts in this topic

I take a Securitate in almost all of my Nomad lists, but I seem to be in the minority...

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It's not like a defensive hacker is all that necessary. I've blown an entire turn's worth of orders trying to hack a single unprotected Asura and failed. I've certainly not had much success finishing off a hacked Ectros because of their supporting link buddies.

 

You've got a point there.

 

TheMatsjo - it's in the ITS organised play PDF. You still roll as normal, it's just that instead of declaring the WIP and 'I passed/failed' you just say 'I passed/failed'. The only time the actual WIP would be revealed is if a crit makes you win the roll-off.

 

Much obliged; I'll look up the specifics.

 

The Tohaa vulnerability to fire is as big a trap as it is a weakness. In my last game, I lost a Lunokhod and an Iguana trying to dig out an Ektros. I killed quite a few other units as a result but it was extremely bloody and Tohaa can play the ARO game like nobody else save Bakunin or maybe QK whilst being incredibly mobile.

 

Is that experience common in your play? Did you send more expensive flamer units after them? Tohaa can do AROs well, but don't you have the experience that taking out the Link greatly reduces the threat?

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Regarding the Flaming Ammunition issue, I can easily see the issue it presents regarding the TAG, but is this really a huge disadvantage in other areas?  I know it's unfortunate, not being able to take advantage of an ability/piece of gear in certain matchups, but most of the time Tohaa units are still receiving an effective +1 Wound for very cheap.  I know cross-faction comparisons can be tricky, but a Viral Loup Garou stacks up pretty nicely to a Sakiel in terms of overall cost.  The Loup Garou has a few tricks... V: Courage, X-Visor, but the Sakiel gets the perks of being able to easily link and also gets Swarm Grenades for a roughly equivalent point cost, not including the advantage of Symbiont Armor.  Both seem to have equivalent advantages / disadvantages, without even bringing the +1 Wound into the discussion.  Does this seem unfair?  Symbiont Armor strikes me as a useful advantage to have when it can be utilized, especially in a faction that values keeping link members alive, rather than a faction mechanic that's broken (which seems to be the perspective of some players.)

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Addressing the few of these:

 

Tohaa's biggest weakness, like ALEPH when it first came out, is a dearth of variety in its models. This is a problem that will be solved over time. Right now, Tohaa has two models that set them apart from other factions in a meaningful way: the Sakiel and the Makaul. Sakiel are cheap, have great weapon options, are durable, deadly, and fast. They're arguably the best model in their class in the game. At a minimum, most other troops that compete are less durable or less deadly. The Makaul are one of the vanishingly small number of warband units that are regular, and combined with their Zero-V smoke and flamethrowers (instead of chain rifles!), they compete quite handily with Daturazi (they offer more utility), Kuang Shi (they're deadlier and have more utility), and Myrmidons (better weapon options, cheaper, deadlier in melee). All three of these make a huge difference in the possible builds for the armies they're in, and Makaul are no different.

 

Unfortunately, that's where the stand-out troops end. The Gao-Rael is decent, propped up by an effective extra wound, but it's neither significantly better nor significantly worse than other factional equivalents, save that it lacks an HMG option that most of its contemporaries have. The Clipsos is a good vanilla infiltrator, some of the cheapest TO camo around and absolutely no frills. If Tohaa didn't rely so much on Fireteam: Tohaa, the Clipsos would probably be a lot better, but since it can't link it winds up being effectively a fancy Zero. The Gao-Tarsos is probably the best or second-best droptroop in the game, competing with the Tiger Soldier, but it's very expensive and doesn't necessarily change the way Tohaa lists are built in a fundamental way, or in a way that differentiates them from other factions.

 

It's not necessarily bad that Tohaa isn't strikingly different in every way from other factions, but the lack of model variety means that Tohaa doesn't have very many surprises, and there's not a ton of variety available in its builds. It's unsurprising that the most popular Tohaa lists tend to have a core of Sakiel and Makaul.

 

The trickle-down effect of this is that if Tohaa is missing a tool in its toolbox, it's very apparent for all of its players. From having played a goodly amount of Tohaa at this point (including tournament play), the much-maligned Symbiont Armor is a boon in almost every case. It's AMAZING on nearly every troop... provided that troop is below a certain (HI) points threshold. As soon as you cross the threshold where that one failed Fire roll is death, not a single wound on an otherwise multiwound model, it becomes a problem and you start to notice it. Compound that with the fact that two of the three available HMGs in-faction are on expensive (HI-costed) Symbiont Armor troops, and that HMGs (and similar long-range weapons) are a core staple of Infinity and something Tohaa sorely lacks access to, and you start to see why Symbiont Armor gets the hate it does.

 

What Tohaa REALLY lacks is good long-range fire support. There are seven total model loadouts that have a range better than 24", and two of those are Chaksa Auxiliars. The other is the Gorgos, whose Flammenspeer is simply a bad Heavy Rocket Launcher.

 

The reason the Gorgos is so reviled is because (as I've mentioned elsewhere), it's a combination of every single one of Tohaa weaknesses, without any of their strengths. I've done my best to be positive, or neutral on it, but it really is the worst TAG in the game by an appreciable margin. Replace its 2x Flammenspeer with 2x HRL and it would be decent good. Replace its Symbiont Armor with regular armor and it would be... still bad, but only Seraph-bad, not Seraph-pities-you-bad. Give the G:Sync bot an LGL with Zero-V Smoke and Swarm options? Suddenly the Gorgos becomes a very strong piece that you have to keep well-protected.

 

If I were to give a rundown of changes/improvements to the Tohaa lineup, it would look like this:

 

--Gao-Rael given HMG or HRL loadout. Viral Sniper would be nice, but I've been convinced by others on this board that it's not required; it would just be nice. The offensive long-ranged option on the other hand puts it in line with other MI that fill the same role it does, and lowers the pressure on the Ectros.

 

--Kamael Hacker reduced in SWC to 0.5 or removed. It costs too much for what you're getting.

 

--Neema given an HRL to replace her LRL, combi-rifle potentially removed, points adjusted slightly upwards to compensate. Her pricing and SWC look like they'd be in line with that weapon loadout, and it would vastly improve her as an option, both LT and otherwise. It's really unclear where her exorbitant SWC cost is coming from, and this would balance that out.

 

--Gorgos... possibly entirely redesigned. It's really hard for me to even start with the Gorgos, because there are so many problems with it. Probably the simplest option would be to replace the 2x Flammenspeer with 2x HRL or change the Spitfire to an HMG and give the chaksa bot an LGL with Smoke/Swarm or Smoke/Flash grenades, or some combination of those. It needs to justify its 87|2 price tag with something that makes it appealing in an army whose strength is its cheap-for-what-you-get units.

 

You might notice an emphasis on HGLs-- it's because the Tohaa offensive theme seems to be Fire, and rather than simply giving HMG options to more units, I think it would be interesting for Tohaa to be the faction that loves its fire and punishes you from range for grouping up, a niche that other armies don't usually fill. It's already halfway there.

 

The rest, I think, will come in time. An additional Camo model or two will probably come in the next book, I wouldn't be surprised to see a Chain of Command model and possibly an SS2 model, both in-keeping with the Tohaa theme. Most of the above would also be easily doable with some errata, rather than writing entirely new rules or coming up with new models. I think the Tohaa will be fine when the next book comes out, but it's rather a long wait until then and I think there's some good opportunity to even out the faction in the meantime.

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I pretty much agree with what Tamrielo has layed out here.  If you try to build lists for your other favorite factions using only the units in the first book, you will find yourself feeling similarly constrained.  The initial release for a faction has a tendency to follow a bit of a checklist.  Each faction hits those items in a somewhat unique way, but when you have to have an LI, an MI, a WB, an HI, a TAG, a set of REMs, etc., there's not as much room left for flavor.  Subsequent releases have a lot more latitude, and can make the faction start obviously leaning in particular directions (Aleph got a ridiculous number of "officer" characters, Haqq has a stupid number of amazing LI choices, PanO and Yu Jing have really deep HI selections, etc.).  I'm very curious to see what direction the next book will take the Tohaa.

 

Until then, I'll keep on comparing the Sakiel to units like the Loup Garou and Odalisque and smiling.

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@Toad

 

True, but then you have ALEPH.  They covered all of their "initial release" issues by making them all fast, high tech, and with some form of NWI/ODD/Mimetism/Camo/TO...or some combination of the two.  Sorry...I just have a thing against ALEPH...but in general you're right, most armies would find it difficult to bring great lists using only book 1 units....but book 4 is a loooong way off :(

 

-

 

On the Gao Rael, I'm not sure who said that they were bad, or that being 4-2 is "bad" but when they are the only 4-2 model in the army and an integral part of many triads, it just feels awkward, clumsy and unwarranted.  A weapon option buff would only be really necessary IF they were still 4-2...if they were 4-4 they I wouldn't have any issues....though I wouldn't turn down some better ranged weapons :P .

 

I do think we need a little more kick in the firepower department, however you'd want to go about it.  The Hassassin in me wants more Viral, but then again, they are supposed to be the masters of it and have very little.  

 

Yes, spending 1 SWC for a sub par hacking device is just f'ing silly.

 

Yes, our TAG blows.  

 

Yes, we need a boost in the reactive turn.  Gao Raels? ....Don't stop camo attacks and it's not hard to kill another model in the link and pick them off with something less expensive instead of relying on some form of Camo, ODD, etc.

 

Fire.  Don't mind the weakness, except on our big units obviously, but there has been a big increase in fire units since paradisio.  There has also been a large increase in Camo, TO, ODD and many other fire vulnerable abilities since the game's release, making fire more appealing in general, not just against Tohaa, thus making it easier to run into.  If your meta doesn't use it, well then have fun playing a little less stressful version of Tohaa...my meta isn't hacker heavy, so I have my own things that I don't worry about.  That doesn't change the fact that NWI, Symbiont armor's biggest comparison ability, faces far less weaponry that ignores it that Symbiont (no I'm not counting shock ccws)...there are a lot more fire weapons that shock and viral weapons in this game.   Though while I'm not counting ccw's, I am counting things like Mines and Koalas, so don't worry, and while there are a lot of mines and they are very good, mines =/= flamethrowers in this case.

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Problem with the Tohaa is their links. It's a little gimmicky feature that prevents us from getting good weapons in fear that being linked will make them OP. Give them HMG and suddenly it's B5 str15 weapon. B2 missile launchers? MSR's with +1B all over the board?  But if Tohaa player does not utilize those links he's pretty much screwed.

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Problem with the Tohaa is their links. It's a little gimmicky feature that prevents us from getting good weapons in fear that being linked will make them OP. Give them HMG and suddenly it's B5 str15 weapon. B2 missile launchers? MSR's with +1B all over the board?  But if Tohaa player does not utilize those links he's pretty much screwed.

Or when someone stratgeically kills one unit in several links and you end up with broken links everywhere and only 1 lt order to fix them. And you have all the impeatoues orders to do aswell which will screw up possible links and possibly get some troops killed.

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I am liking the new type of gameplay, but it is too easy for the opponent to tear them apart in my experience.

Links are easily broken, weapons and ammo are limited, Lieutenant is way to easy to find.

But they are new...

I've been told that Aleph had the same problems we are having with Tohaa now.

We are missing a lot... Maybe too much.

Although I would have expected more and better equipment/ammo for the Tohaa...

Impersonators, Viral Sniper Rifle, ecc.

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Or when someone stratgeically kills one unit in several links and you end up with broken links everywhere and only 1 lt order to fix them. And you have all the impeatoues orders to do aswell which will screw up possible links and possibly get some troops killed.

 

This is actually the main reason why I keep arguing that Tohaa shouldn t be set up in ARO positions, and should usually tuck themselves in at turn ends where possible. Limiting the loss of Triads on the reactive turn usually helps me out way more than attempting to pick off foes with good AROs.

 

Lieutenant is way too easy to find.

 

This one I don't understand; I find that it's actually easier for Tohaa to hide Lt's (especially if you use at least a few cheerleaders) because almost all options have WIP 13; unless you're referring to Neema specifically?

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Do something with Gorgos.

I've never played with it, but given that flame is more ubiquitous these days and the suck factor I get when my Ectros go down so easy, I wn't bother playing the gorgos until they fix it.

My Goa Rael hardly moves and when they do its not with double move so the 4-2 hasn't been an issue with me.

I think if CB added some new chaksas or new races, tech to the mix that deters fire or makes it harder to grt in the face of Tohaa then Tohaa could become the more synergistic army that is still challenging play with and a challenge to play against.

For now that's how I play them, the new kids on the block that's new, not straightforward, and mkre finesse.

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This one I don't understand; I find that it's actually easier for Tohaa to hide Lt's (especially if you use at least a few cheerleaders) because almost all options have WIP 13; unless you're referring to Neema specifically?

It's not the WIP, but the Lieutenant's loadout...

Sakiel with Viral, Kamael with Combi or a Gao-Rael with ADHL unless you use Ectros or Neema.

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It's not the WIP, but the Lieutenant's loadout...

Sakiel with Viral, Kamael with Combi or a Gao-Rael with ADHL unless you use Ectros or Neema.

 

Sure, but I haven t found that to be a problem because I usually bring two Sakiel Viral anyway, and there s a ton of Kamael options that carry a Combi. For 24 points you can have two cheerleaders hanging back. If you don t use Kamael, and only bring one Sakiel Viral, I guess I see your point. Neema isn t an option for me, and a Combi on the Ectross seems like a waste to me, so granted there.

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You got my point! ^_^

I'd like to use the Kamael FO's in the link teams but if I do... The Lt stands out too much!

My groups plays ITS missions... So those FO's (together with the Clipsos) are very very useful.

Another situation that happens with my games with Tohaa...

is that they start really well with field control and mission objectives, but as soon as they start loosing they're mini links they get trashed!

And also.... for the moment, I've never been able to cut down the opponent's order pool significantly

(that's unless I use the Gao-Tarsos!).

I like to think it's the Tohaa low range weapons.... but this is probably my fault (play style / list making).....!!!

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I think that special ammo could be more interesting in some units, and make them diferents. And no necessaryly viral.

I would like to see Shock ammo in Sniper or Rifle, or Swarm in LGL, in a Rocket or in a mine. IMO, these options will make Tohaa more special.

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Is that experience common in your play? Did you send more expensive flamer units after them? Tohaa can do AROs well, but don't you have the experience that taking out the Link greatly reduces the threat?

Although my Tohaa opponent feared Fire greatly, what worked best against Tohaa links were just lots and lots of bullets. If you didn't break at least two links, you would be in trouble in your next turn. So really, the extra wound the symbiont offers is a real boon. And B4 Viral is incredibly sick. No pun intended.

IMHO the biggest weakness of the Tohaa is that you always work in links. Usually two links are on the offensive which also means 60% of your usual 10 orders are coming into my striking range. If I can stall their advance then they are in a prime spot to get taken down in a counter attack. 300 points tend to have the odd mix of links, Makauls and Sakiels shuffling towards your lines.

At least that's how it plays out in my games against them.

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.As for the GaoRael, i'd like him to be 4-4 sure, but i think he currently seems more incongruous as there aren't any other 4-2 troops in Tohaa, if we start getting a few more, it might be easier to include a GaoRael in a triad without feeling like you're hamstringing the other troops in said triad, and better access to longer range weaponry could also help

The Gao-Rael is a nice toy for the Tohaa,

but, yes, for the moment I too find its 4-2 Movement to be incoherent with the Tohaa Fire Team Ability.

As already said, it is probably a problem that will be solved once we get new troops and new ammunitions.

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4-2 MOV is the rule for most MSVL2+, save for REMs and TAGs and the (unlinkable) Order Sergeant. It is (probably) a deliberate gameplay balance decision. Linkable MSVL2+ covering objectives are already bad enough.

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No doubt it is like that...

But for the moment, considering the limited number of choices and load-outs,

a piece like the Gao-Rael, that is 'very' useful, is often a problem when linked.

I still consider it a valid option for my lists.... ^_^

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4-2 MOV is the rule for most MSVL2+, save for REMs and TAGs and the (unlinkable) Order Sergeant. It is (probably) a deliberate gameplay balance decision. Linkable MSVL2+ covering objectives are already bad enough.

And as many rules, this one has two notable exceptions. Meet the Asura (4-4 HI) and the Deva (4-4 LI). Now, those two are not linkable but have more than one wound.

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I just thought about something use full for the campaign that I would like to see, A new profile for diplomatic delegate or a new model with some level of journalist.

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And as many rules, this one has two notable exceptions. Meet the Asura (4-4 HI) and the Deva (4-4 LI). Now, those two are not linkable but have more than one wound.

 

Didn't really know about the Deva and Asura (assumed she was 4-2). Wow, Deva Spitfire's 34 / 1 SWC is ridiculously cheap for such a powerful unit. Order Sergeant Specialist is 1.5 SWC in sectorial and a ridiculous 2.5 in vanilla. But then, ALEPH has traditionally struggled with Orders at low points levels. Or else is a faction advantage.

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And as many rules, this one has two notable exceptions. Meet the Asura (4-4 HI) and the Deva (4-4 LI). Now, those two are not linkable but have more than one wound.

 

There are a fair amount of non 4-2 move MSV troops. Don't forget the excellent Vector Operator with it's 6-2 move and Super Jump!

 

Then again, fire weapons aren't that common, and the ones that are not Direct Template Flamethrowers are rather rare. IMO you are blowing the problem out of proportion...

 

I agree. But... the players in my meta tailor lists against specific opponents. I've only brought Tohaa a few times but if I start fielding them regularly I expect I'll see a LOT of flame stuff in every battle.

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Didn't really know about the Deva and Asura (assumed she was 4-2). Wow, Deva Spitfire's 34 / 1 SWC is ridiculously cheap for such a powerful unit. Order Sergeant Specialist is 1.5 SWC in sectorial and a ridiculous 2.5 in vanilla. But then, ALEPH has traditionally struggled with Orders at low points levels. Or else is a faction advantage.

 

Asura 4-2, hahahaha! Oh it's nice having a ARM 5, 4-4 MOV troop, with an MSV3... 

 

The Deva is awesome platform for their points... no doubt about that. 

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Defansive Hacking Device for 1 SWC looked me expensive first time i saw it while comparing it with other Line Infanty hackers...and still looks expensive!

 

By the way Kamael with Defansive Hacking DEvice counts as 'Hacker' in ITS senarios?

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