19 posts in this topic

Hello,

a few weeks ago me and my mates from the Mannheimer Blood Bowl League decided to start playing Infinity. It is a really great game and even though we have only played a couple of games, we are excited to play more and have started painting our armies and building suitable terrain.

 

However, we are all new and we have faced some problems. We started buying different starter packs (more on the looks of the miniatures and the themes of the different factions). While navigating through this forum and the spanish one, I read all the "big posts" about the different factions and sectorials, where players described the pros and cons of each miniatures and suggested army lists.

 

Notwithstanding, while these posts were great, I found one of urobros (in Spanish) about the starter of Acontecimento. http://infinitythegame.com/foro/index.php?/topic/6305-empezar-acontecimiento-aqui-hay-una-ayuda/

 

He listed which units were included and how you could create a 150 point army list with the starter, explaining the different possibilities. Further on, he explained what options were great to expand the starter to 175, 200, 250 and 300 points. I found his topic really helpful and made me decide to ask if there were more posts of this sort. I have not found anything similar (at least pinned). I know there are many veteran players here who have enough experience to help doing something similar. I don't want to impose, just to suggest that if someone would have the time to do something similar, it would be really appreciated by all us newbies who have some trouble in deciding how to expand our starters. We are buying the minis who we think look cool, but there have been some players in my league who have acquired options that do not mix well together (corregidor starter + reverend moiras).

 

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance. And by the way, it is really nice to navigate through this forum.

 

Best,

Mephisto 

 

Links to the "Expanding your starter" series:

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-

-

-

-

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So, what factions/sectorials you plan to play? I can say something for those I run. These are just "recommended purchases", if you want detailed, "slow-grow" lists for 150/200/250 lists I may post some later.

vanilla CA: 2x Batroid blisters (you'll get 2 sooner or later so might as well), Vector HMG, 4x Hungries box (convert/run all as Pretas)
Morat: Do not have a starter, get Yaogat box + Yaogat sniper + Daturazi blister, run both Dats as chain rifles and you have 200pt.
Shasvastii: Aswang combi (you'll have to convert/proxy that one but he's a must-have), Noctifer spitfire

vanilla Yu Jing: Guilang combi, Tiger Soldier HMG.
ISS: KSCDSLGLCG*, Kuang Shi box, start working from there - good options are: full CG link, Garuda HMG (needs hacker), Su Jian, Yaokongs.
JSA: Aragoto box, Keisotsu HMG, the missing Keisotsu combi model. Run as: [Domaru chain LT, Kempei CoC, 4* Keisotsu combi (one has LGL), Keisotsu HMG, Ninja shock/combi (proxy with Oniwaban), Aragoto combi, Aragoto spitfire]. 200pt exactly.

*Kuang Shi Control Device+Smoke LGL Celestial Guard. Also the best Infinity acronym.

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Thanks for the answer Bostriasty.

 

However, I was thinking on a different thing.

 

1) Have a "Expand the starter x" on each of the differents factions. In Panoceania you would then have one post for "Expand Acontecimento Starter", another one for "Expand Military Order Starter", etc. And so for each faction.

 

2) If you have a look at urobros post (even if it is in Spanish, just for the way he organized it):

http://infinitythegame.com/foro/index.php?/topic/6305-empezar-acontecimiento-aqui-hay-una-ayuda/

 

you´ll see that he first started explaining what each Starter contains (in his case Acontecimento):

 

 

¿Qué tenemos en el starter?
3 Regulares de acontecimiento
1 Montesa
1 Akal Escopeta de Abordaje
1 Baghmari

Con eso tenemos, sin poner ningún arma rara usando proxys (tened en cuenta que, por ejemplo el montesa con Lanzagranadas Ligero o Spitfire no existen) una lista de: 121 puntos.
22.png EJÉRCITO DE CHOQUE DE ACONTECIMENTO
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GRUPO 1 (Regs: 6/Irrs: 0):

22_1.png3x REGULAR Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_3.pngBAGH-MARI Fusil Combi+ Escopeta Lig. / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_2.pngCOMANDO AKAL Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Arma CC
22_5.pngCABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC AP

121 Puntos | CAP: 0

ARMY CODE: eNozMlI1VDNQM6xBJo3BpJGaEZA0BbEBnZMIMw==

 

Afterwards he suggests different ideas for what to do with this initial list (even considering proxying) and then he explains how to develop/expand it.

 

I think a guide for each sectorial and faction would be really helpful for newbies. I have seen that there are a lot of posts with the same questions started by newbies like me:

 

- What should I buy if I play army x?

- What list is the best?

- Should I buy support pack?

 

And instead of having to answer each time these questions, I think it would be really great to have the sort of post done by urobros. You would have it pinned, and then newbies could go directly there and think:

 

"Ok, I'm buying this starter and I have those options to play with it. If I want however to expand it to play 300 points, veteran players suggest these different options and the reasons for those options are x and y."

 

Do you know what I mean? Or I am explaining myself in a poor manner?

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That's actually what I meant by a slow-grow list, just with more explanation. Sure, I can do that for CA / Yu Jing / their sectorials. Is it OK if we discuss the posts here and when they're ready, incorporate the most useful comments and post them as their separate threads?

Let's see:

Starting JSA

Let's look at the starter. We have:

3 Keisotsu - combi rifles
1 Domaru - chain rifle
1 Kempei - boarding shotgun
1 Oniwaban - boarding shotgun

A sample starter-only list would look like this:

 

logo_23.png JAPANESE SECTORIAL ARMY
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

 GROUP 1 sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png6 orden_irregular.png0 orden_impetuosa.png0

 logo_23_5.pngDOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (27)
 logo_23_2.pngKEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (24)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_9.pngONIWABAN Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (44)

0 SWC | 122 Points

Open with Army 4
 

So the starter gives us:

- 3 cheap linkable grunts

- durable offensive LT

- a backup unit to keep the army going when the LT bites it

- a stealthy infiltrating murderer

 

The Kempei+Domaru go very well together, and will probably see the same spot as your army expands. Now, we have 28 points to upgrade, what do we do?

 

Option 1: Expand the Keisotsu link

 

logo_23.png JAPANESE SECTORIAL ARMY
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

 GROUP 1 sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png8 orden_irregular.png0 orden_impetuosa.png0

 logo_23_5.pngDOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (27)
 logo_23_2.pngKEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (24)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_9.pngONIWABAN Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (44)

0.5 SWC | 149 Points

Open with Army 4

Purchases needed:

- Keisotsu HMG

- Keisotsu combi, combi+LGL

 

Keisotsu links are just plain better than a disorganized horde of orderbots, and are a popular option in all but the largest of formats (I'll talk about others later) to fill space, give regular orders and backup fire support.

 

But what if we don't want to use the Oniwaban? Sure he can be awesome, but you get committed to a particular playstyle, have to waste an order for his HD, and sometimes you just don't want a ninja. How about a gang of bikers then?

 

Option 2: Bike gang

 

logo_23.png JAPANESE SECTORIAL ARMY
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

 GROUP 1 sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png8 orden_irregular.png0 orden_impetuosa.png2

 logo_23_3.pngARAGOTO Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
 logo_23_3.pngARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
 logo_23_2.pngKEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (24)
 logo_23_5.pngDOMARU Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (27)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)
 logo_23_1.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (9)

2.5 SWC | 150 Points

Open with Army 4

Purchases needed:

- Keisotsu HMG

- Aragoto box

 

Sure, Oniwaban is awesome, but is he 2-motorbikes-worth of awesome? Your choice. This list gives up the +3 BS for a full Keisotsu link, relegating them more to the support role, but gives you lightning-strike capability in the form of 2 Aragotos. I switched the LT to the Aragoto so he can use the extra order better.

 

(200+ point lists incoming)

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Hi,

 

I don't know if it wouldn't be better to have a post in each section directly. But yes, it would be definitely the way you are doing it. I think that is the best way to help newbies and to avoid every month a new post with the same question.

 

thanks

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Hi,

 

I don't know if it wouldn't be better to have a post in each section directly. But yes, it would be definitely the way you are doing it. I think that is the best way to help newbies and to avoid every month a new post with the same question.

 

thanks

This looks like a good idea. @Bostriasty, maybe we could start something like this up? I say 'we' because I don't want to burden you with this task on your own, it seems like a lot of work. Haha! I'd start on my own, but I feel I'm not experienced enough with the game to do this on my own.

 

I know we already have the 'tactica'-threads, but this is a little more solid/valuable for starters who haven't really played anything or aren't familiar enough with the game to see some of the options. Besides, not every sectorial or faction has a well worked out tactica thread yet, so I think Mephisto has a great idea. 

What you guys are doing here is exactly what I've been doing before I purchased any mini's, so if other people think this is a good idea and want to start working on it, I offer my services! :)

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If you start doing this for the different factions and sectorials, put the links to the posts here, so that I can edit the first post and have them all grouped there together. By the way, thanks for the help and the quick answers ;-)

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Weird line of though, but I think the best way to expand from a Starter...is another Starter...:P

 

I did start a mini thread on Two-Box armies a while back:

http://infinitythegame.com/forum/index.php?/topic/16980-one-starter-one-box/#entry341772

 

Perhaps you could draw some inspiration from there...

 

e.g. Ariadna Starter + Caledonian Starter

ariadna_logo_small.png Ariadna | 12 models
________________________________________________________
Combat Group #1
veteran_kazaks_logo_small.png Veteran Kazak HMG Lt (61|1)
3rd_highlander_greys_logo_small.png Highlander Grey HMG (40|1.5)
3rd_highlander_greys_logo_small.png Highlander Grey HMG (40|1.5)
9th_wulver_grenadiers_logo_small.png Wulver Mk12 (38|0)
s_a_s_logo_small.png S.A.S. FO (28|0)
chasseurs_logo_small.png Chasseur Observer (22|0)
intel_spec_ops_logo_small.png Intel Rifle (AP Sniper Rifle, Specialist Troop, CH: Mimetism, Minelayer) (9|0|12xp)
caledonian_volunteers_logo_small.png Volunteer Chain (6|0)
caledonian_volunteers_logo_small.png Volunteer Chain (6|0)
line_kazak_logo_small.png Line Kazak LGL (14|1)
Combat Group #2
line_kazak_logo_small.png Line Kazak Sniper (18|0.5)
line_kazak_logo_small.png Line Kazak Sniper (18|0.5)
_______________________________________________________
300/300 points | 6/6 swc

 

Of course, YMMV, and it'll be different with different Starters/Factions.

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The big problem with EXPAND THE STARTER is that people will take the recommendations as the be-all-end-all of what they should be playing, like they do in other games.  Playing Cryx? Buy Skarlock asap.  Playing Menoth?  Choir asap.  Etc etc.  We don't really want that.

 

That said, I'd be happy to give a list of blister suggestions for my faction if that's what people are looking for.

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The big problem with EXPAND THE STARTER is that people will take the recommendations as the be-all-end-all of what they should be playing, like they do in other games.  Playing Cryx? Buy Skarlock asap.  Playing Menoth?  Choir asap.  Etc etc.  We don't really want that.

 

That said, I'd be happy to give a list of blister suggestions for my faction if that's what people are looking for.

 

I don't think so. In his post, urobros explicitly explained that many of the choices were the ones he liked. But also mentioning those other people use. If you do one post per starter, then you will have a discussion/debate about what each player does. It should be used by newbies to start/expand their initial collection without "wasting" their money as my collague did buying boxes with low utility at the beginning.

 

New players usually don´t spend that much money on figures till they knew how to play correctly and what makes sense. In my case for example I bought the PanO starter pack and I was quite a little bit dissapointed. Now after reading a lot of posts, I have realized that it was not throwing away my money as I can use it as a base for a Neoterran sectorial army.

 

I am now playing Military Orders. I bought the starter and as I did not know which were suitable options for exanding it, I found an army list and decided to buy those models that fitted into the list. But it would have been better to know which options do what and what I gain/loss by including them.

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Ah, if you're asking for "what's legal in my army" (with reference to sectorials), then that's totally cool.  Also, I don't have an issue with this initiative, but I caution (strongly) that I've seen many players over many games over many years gravitate towards "the first models veteran players suggested I buy, I buy".

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Ah, if you're asking for "what's legal in my army" (with reference to sectorials), then that's totally cool.  Also, I don't have an issue with this initiative, but I caution (strongly) that I've seen many players over many games over many years gravitate towards "the first models veteran players suggested I buy, I buy".

It´s a shame that urobros post is not in English, because then you wouldn´t have those worries.

 

Parting from the Starter Pack (listing and explaining what it contains) he then explains different possibilities to expand it.

 

It´s something like this:

 

You have the starter that contains the following models:

[list of models]

that makes for 130 points. You can equip them with following options to reach 150 pts.

 

Next step is something like:

 

A good way to expand the sectorial is by:

 

Option A. (explanation of option A).

 

However there are other interesting possibilites.

 

Discussion of possibilities, B, C, D.

 

If you are however playing a campaign, you could consider Option E.

 

And all this for 150, 200, 250 and 300 points.

 

 

I think this is quite useful for a beginner. I see an explanation what my starter has and different options explained by veterans. After reading these explanations and understanding them, I have a much better knowledge of what the starter has/lacks. And how I can expand them without buying units that are ilegal to play (or where I already have models in the starter, or I have already used all my SWC) or not reasonable (if for example I already have one or two HMG).

 

Just to be clear: I am not trying to get the best list to play. As I have seen, this is kind of nosense in Infinity and this is why I enjoy the game so much. Hope I made myself more clear. :)

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Sounds good.  I wonder if someone can translate that article for this forum. :)

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The big problem with EXPAND THE STARTER is that people will take the recommendations as the be-all-end-all of what they should be playing, like they do in other games.  Playing Cryx? Buy Skarlock asap.  Playing Menoth?  Choir asap.  Etc etc.  We don't really want that.

 

I'll have to make mutually exclusive lists then :D

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The big problem with EXPAND THE STARTER is that people will take the recommendations as the be-all-end-all of what they should be playing, like they do in other games.  Playing Cryx? Buy Skarlock asap.  Playing Menoth?  Choir asap.  Etc etc.  We don't really want that.

 

That said, I'd be happy to give a list of blister suggestions for my faction if that's what people are looking for.

 

A big difference between Infinity and WMH is that in WMH there is a dire need for certain units in several factions. Menoth without a Choir is crippling because Menoth was designed to be dependant on its inter-unit synergies and the Choir is so fundamental to its warjack strategy. Without it their battlegroup is just a poor version of Khador because their warcasters are meant to synergize and buff their infantry. There are some other examples in that game system but the Menoth ones stick out the most because its units are deliberately underpowered for their cost, but will always be subject to at least 1-2 buff effects on the table and a lot more if the player is using them for achieving objectives.

Infinity doesn't burdened you with requiring you to field a Lt that punishes for not taking a certain unit over another, e.g. if Achilles is your lieutenant, in a system like 40k or WMH, all Myrmidons and Myrmidon officers would get Multiterrain, Climbing Plus and Hyperdynamics L1, L2 for Officers, that would mean fielding anything other than Myrmidons is a poor choice except for possibly an Agema for MSV2. Because this isn't in CB's designs, Infinity doesn't come up and say "Oh, you want to buy that right with the starter, bad idea, get this and this first, then maybe this and then you can have that in your games without handing your opponent a victory", this means that INYIYL is important as there is no blatantly necessary things to buy when starting a faction. The tradeoff with this open approach to planning and playing the game, and by extension the meta, is that its kind of unclear what to buy next.

 

Hence I think a buyer's guide is a good idea, but it needs to be written in a less lecturing "This is the best choice" manner and more about flexibility eg "You like using the Akali in the Shock Army starter? Well consider getting the blister with the HMG or getting Kirpal Singh". Also I think something extra about using TAGs in a list is important as there isn't too much on taking them compared to pretty much everything else and they do require a bit more effort to get your money, SWC and points worth out of them, than they seem to need.

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Here is a quick translation of urobros post: http://infinitythegame.com/foro/index.php?/topic/6305-empezar-acontecimiento-aqui-hay-una-ayuda/

 

I´m not going to translate everything, as the troop profile can be easily understood and the interesting things are the comments, not the army list per se.

 

What do we have in the Starter?

3 Regulares de acontecimiento
1 Montesa
1 Akal Escopeta de Abordaje
1 Baghmari

We have a list of 121 points, without taking some strange weapon and using proxies (take into account that there is no model for the Montesa Kinght with Grenade Launcher or Spitfire). 121 pts

22.png EJÉRCITO DE CHOQUE DE ACONTECIMENTO
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GRUPO 1 (Regs: 6/Irrs: 0):

22_1.png3x REGULAR Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_3.pngBAGH-MARI Fusil Combi+ Escopeta Lig. / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_2.pngCOMANDO AKAL Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Arma CC
22_5.pngCABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil Combi / Pistola, Arma CC AP

121 Puntos | CAP: 0

ARMY CODE: eNozMlI1VDNQM6xBJo3BpJGaEZA0BbEBnZMIMw== Army Infinity v.3.0.

The list is simplified. We can choose the lieutnant can be choosen between baghmari, a regular or the Montesa.

If we adjust a little bit the list, "tuning" the options without taking too seriously what´s int he box, we could get a decent list of 130 points.

 

22.png EJÉRCITO DE CHOQUE DE ACONTECIMENTO
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GRUPO 1 (Regs: 6/Irrs: 0):

22_1.pngREGULAR Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR Teniente Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR (Minador, Sensor) Fusil Combi, Minas Antipersona / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_3.pngBAGH-MARI Fusil Combi+ Escopeta Lig. / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_2.pngCOMANDO AKAL Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Arma CC
22_5.pngCABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. / Pistola, Arma CC AP

130 Puntos | CAP: 2

ARMY CODE: eNozMlI1VDNQM6wxVLMAk2ZA0hgsYqRmBCRNQSQAnu8IQw== Army Infinity v.3.0.

 

To use this list properly one has to be used to the rules of:
Linked groups The Miner
Mines´ rules
Speculative shot Beware! I would ignore this rule during the first games. Once you are used to the mines rules, you should then use it.

How can we expand this list to get to 150 points?

 

Otpion 1:
2 more regulars, one of them with spitfire, +27 points y +1 SWC. This will enable us to complete a 5-link team making it as hard as a link team can get. This is also a good base for later army lists. We will also have a better weapon (spitfire) thatn the combirifles in the regular´s hands. Take a look again at the linked troop rules.

22.png EJÉRCITO DE CHOQUE DE ACONTECIMENTO
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GRUPO 1 (Regs: 8/Irrs: 0):

22_1.png3x REGULAR Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR Teniente Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR Spitfire / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_2.pngCOMANDO AKAL Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Arma CC
22_3.pngBAGH-MARI Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_5.pngCABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. / Pistola, Arma CC AP

149 Puntos | CAP: 2.5

ARMY CODE: eNozMlI1VDNQM6wxVLMAk0Zg0gBOGoFFjNVMgaQpiA0AFG0K+A== Army Infinity v.3.0.

Option 2,
1 Regular Sniper,
Would allow us to get a 4-man link, that we can expland later on. We will have a really powerful weapon against many enemies. The rules for the sniper rifle can be found here (link). It is an adequate option for a defensive link team.

22.png EJÉRCITO DE CHOQUE DE ACONTECIMENTO
──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

GRUPO 1 (Regs: 7/Irrs: 0):

22_1.png2x REGULAR Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR Teniente Fusil Combi / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_1.pngREGULAR (Zapador) F. de Francotirador MULTI / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_2.pngCOMANDO AKAL Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Arma CC
22_3.pngBAGH-MARI Escopeta de Abordaje / Pistola, Cuchillo
22_5.pngCABALLERO DE MONTESA Fusil Combi + Lanzagranadas Lig. / Pistola, Arma CC AP

149 Puntos | CAP: 3

ARMY CODE: eNozMlI1VDNQM6wxVLMAkxC2CZA0UjMCksZqpkDSFMQGANWmCaA= Army Infinity v.3.0.

There are of course other options, I am just suggesting a few.

Good, we then have 150 points more or less. What more can we adquire to get to the 200 points armz list? We have different options, all very "juicy". They depend of cpurse on the options we are going to take and how we want to play the list.

 

[... it goes on, but I wanted to show you how he did it]

 

Hence, what do you think? I think it is great and by posting it here, different players could describe their own options/experiences making comprehensive options lists of every sectorial.

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I like the idea. I know when I was getting into the game I would have found this sort of thing invaluable. Don't forget, when people are starting they don't know how awesome the game is, they don't want to invest money on stuff that is not so useful. And yes, there is sub-optimal stuff you could buy. I often see people want to make a list when they start which has two tags, or 5 AD troops. Giving a guide on good starting options would be a good launch-pad for most new gamers.

 

I will try and put something together for Nomads.

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I like the idea. I know when I was getting into the game I would have found this sort of thing invaluable. Don't forget, when people are starting they don't know how awesome the game is, they don't want to invest money on stuff that is not so useful. And yes, there is sub-optimal stuff you could buy. I often see people want to make a list when they start which has two tags, or 5 AD troops. Giving a guide on good starting options would be a good launch-pad for most new gamers.

 

I will try and put something together for Nomads.

 

Thanks! I think you got the point. ;-)

 

If you open a post about this, just post the link here, please.

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I think this can be quite useful.... But as mentioned it should be written well as to prevent new players from think that these are must haves. (and new players would because they would rather spend on something they are sure of)

When i started there were 2 other haqqislam players and another one joined in later on. It would have really sucked if we all had more or less the same configs if we all read some sort of expanding your starter guide that was not written well. What was nice was that the 4 explored our own way and had different approaches....I went Djanbazan....while another used lasiqs....and the other got odalisques ... And one used a HMG janissary. So playing didnt really feel like a mirror match inspite having the same faction.

And increasing army size is not always adding figs to the existing list but also replacing figs.

Don't get me wrong I believe this can help a lot but the writer has quite a lot to write since there a ton of ways to expand a starter along with explanations and taking a lot of things into consideration.

What helped me when I was starting was the list builder (which lets you know if you have an illegal list) and that list building topic saying " you should have at least 8 orders, avoid too many AD troops, etc." (sorry forgot the title and author)

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