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Scar137

Surprise Attack?

Question

Can my non Camo (Impersonation) guys with martial arts even get the surprise attack ability that Martial arts says they can do? (e.g Tarik Mansuri).

 

Pg 104 Surprise Attack:  states that my trooper must fulfill all requirements:

 

- He must have a special skill that gives him surprise attack. (Martial arts does this).

- He must also be in a marker state! (Tarik Mansuri cannot do this).

- He must enter base contact in the same order surprise attack was declared. (Easy)

 

Guess I kind of answered my own question. 

 

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- He must also be in a marker state! (Tarik Mansuri cannot do this).

 

Guess I kind of answered my own question. 

Exactly ;)

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10/Achilles

 

Would read again.   ;)

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Then why even have the ability added to Martial Arts if you can't use it without camo and Camouflage of any kind have it inherently each time the model go es in camo state?

It would make more sense for it to work for non-Camouflage models if they come into CC from out of LOF, at least just once.

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8 minutes ago, Darkilian said:

Then why even have the ability added to Martial Arts if you can't use it without camo and Camouflage of any kind have it inherently each time the model go es in camo state?

It would make more sense for it to work for non-Camouflage models if they come into CC from out of LOF, at least just once.

It's theoretically possible that there will be a way to put models into marker state in the future so I guess it's futureproofing. 

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It may be for more narrative or not-by-the-book scenarios, but future-proofing is a bit harsh.

Its like a rule the gives you teleportation abilities, makes you excited, but the dude forgot to bring his phase-teleportation underwear to work and says: Nah-Uh, i aint doing that s***! Just cause i have it, doesnt mean that im gonna! Its just there for show, you know, cause i can! Bragging rights go far these days. 

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I thought one of the Martial Arts models could get put in to a marker state using Cybermask, or some other variation of Impersonation.  

Edit:  The Umbra Legate (has Martial Arts 4) hacker has a Hacking Device plus, so it access to Cybermask to get the Imp-2 marker state.  

So, as they say, the future is now.  :aha-!:

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9 minutes ago, solkan said:

I thought one of the Martial Arts models could get put in to a marker state using Cybermask, or some other variation of Impersonation.  

Edit:  The Umbra Legate (has Martial Arts 4) hacker has a Hacking Device plus, so it access to Cybermask to get the Imp-2 marker state.  

So, as they say, the future is now.  :aha-!:

The impersonation state includes Surprise Attack, I think this might have been an FAQ/Errata though. 

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9 minutes ago, solkan said:

I thought one of the Martial Arts models could get put in to a marker state using Cybermask, or some other variation of Impersonation.  

Edit:  The Umbra Legate (has Martial Arts 4) hacker has a Hacking Device plus, so it access to Cybermask to get the Imp-2 marker state.  

So, as they say, the future is now.  :aha-!:

Yes, but Impersonation is just a stronger type of camo, achieved by hacking and cannot be shot at while in this state, you have to be discovered first.

Furthermore, Cybermask cannot be put on a different model that the hacker that is using hacking program.

So you basically have, for the Umbra Legate, Surprise Attack from Martial Arts and also get it from entering IMP-2 state as well. (you get Surprise shot L1 and Surprise attack just from entering a camo state, doesnt matter what kind, you just gets it)

A Umbra Legate relying only on Martial Arts cannot do a Surprise Attack, even though it has it.

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10 minutes ago, Darkilian said:

Yes, but Impersonation is just a stronger type of camo, achieved by hacking and cannot be shot at while in this state, you have to be discovered first.

Furthermore, Cybermask cannot be put on a different model that the hacker that is using hacking program.

So you basically have, for the Umbra Legate, Surprise Attack from Martial Arts and also get it from entering IMP-2 state as well. (you get Surprise shot L1 and Surprise attack just from entering a camo state, doesnt matter what kind, you just gets it)

A Umbra Legate relying only on Martial Arts cannot do a Surprise Attack, even though it has it.

You were complaining that it was useless.  I was pointing out a real, existing profile where the ability gets used.  The Umbra Legate uses Cybermask so that it can get into a situation to make a surprise attack.

So what's going on?

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I was complaining about the fact that Martial Arts has Surprise Attack as a bonus under its belt of rules. Which, in case of a lot of models that do not have any means to camouflage (camo, TO camo, holoechos, impersonation), cannot use the rule and other models possessing camo abilities, with or without Martial Arts, can already use it cause they have camo to begin with.

Example: A Fiday in camo state can use Surprise Attack from a camo state to enter CC and impose a -6 MOD on the adversary, but the model cannot use Surprise Attack outside of camo (although his Martial Arts says he has the Surprise Attack ability).

Achilles, although he has ODD and Martial Arts (that give him Surprise Attack), cannot take advantage of this rule because there are no inside or outside means to turn him into a camo marker.

TL,DR: Martial Arts should only have Stealth and V: Courage. Surprise Attack is just a extra that can be used only by models in camo state. Models in camo state that already benefit from Surprise Attack even without needing to have Martial Arts to get it.

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Yeah, it would be cool if the Martial Arts user could trigger Surprise attack if he entered combat from outside the opponent's model's LoF, but at the moment it is restricted to marker states unfortunately. 

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Just a theory, but it could be that Martial Arts Surprise Attack is a left over from a point in testing where not having provoked an ARO was sufficient for Surprise Attack - i.e. a model using Stealth to get behind an enemy with Move-CC (which btw would be fairly cool)

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7 hours ago, Darkilian said:

Then why even have the ability added to Martial Arts if you can't use it without camo and Camouflage of any kind have it inherently each time the model go es in camo state?

It would make more sense for it to work for non-Camouflage models if they come into CC from out of LOF, at least just once.

I think it's rule economy. You can slap martial arts, which encompasses three skills, and you avoid having surprise attack as a standalone skill only for the camo models.

edit: whoops, the faq is fairly clear:

N3 Frequently Asked Question Updated: 1.1
Q: Can a Hacker that acquired the Impersonation-2 state using the Hacking Program: Cybermask declare a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot?
A: Yes. As stated in the Impersonation-2 state Effects of the online version (updated from the Errata file), a trooper in this state may use the Surprise Attack or Surprise Shot L1 Special Skills.
Related Pages: Cybermask, Impersonation-2, Surprise Attack, Surprise Shot
Edited by Lockdown
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3 minutes ago, Lockdown said:

I think it's rule economy. You can slap martial arts, which encompasses three skills, and you avoid having surprise attack as a standalone skill only for the camo models.

edit: whoops, the faq is fairly clear:

N3 Frequently Asked Question Updated: 1.1
Q: Can a Hacker that acquired the Impersonation-2 state using the Hacking Program: Cybermask declare a Surprise Attack or a Surprise Shot?
A: Yes. As stated in the Impersonation-2 state Effects of the online version (updated from the Errata file), a trooper in this state may use the Surprise Attack or Surprise Shot L1 Special Skills.
Related Pages: Cybermask, Impersonation-2, Surprise Attack, Surprise Shot

To be able to use Surprise Attack, the trooper must fulfill all the following Requirements:

 

Second dot can't be fulfilled by Martial Arts without camo. (camo is mandatory)

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I don't know, the ruling says it's updated from the errata. Maybe the rules are still not updated? 

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that FAQ isnt changing the fact that you need to be in a marker state to SA or SS something.....IMP-2 is a marker state

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I do wish you could surprise attack without marker state if you entered CC from out of LoF using stealth in the same order. Would make Stealth a lot more useful for what you would think it would intuitively be useful for.

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4 hours ago, Hachiman Taro said:

I do wish you could surprise attack without marker state if you entered CC from out of LoF using stealth in the same order. Would make Stealth a lot more useful for what you would think it would intuitively be useful for.

Agreed here, but until we have an errata...

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