jake richmond

HSN3 Morat experiences, suggested changes and discussion

72 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, wuji said:

Apologies to @jake richmond, Dude, I'm sorry your thread got hit by this bull shit, but I know you recognize it, IMO, IJW is pathetic, he thinks himself a cyber Samurai and I'm sick of it. Let all who read this thread know it. and just incase he unlikes the post here's the pic of it. 

Edit, trouble loading photo, just tried on phone as well, this will have to wait, but no matter still got the proof of an A hole.

Ahhahahahahahahaha. Yeah wartrader really needs to work on being impartial and not argumentative :laugh: 

Edit: this was sarcastic.

 

Anyways, for Vanguard. I love them. If you could put them on Corregidor that would be great.

I think, outside of link, Krakot should be used as the cheerleader now, like how Jaguars are on Correg. I almost never use more than 3 cheerleaders out of link anyways. What do people think of this? I don't see a down side, they cost similar, are still veteran, and have template DZ defense. Only cover and suppression fire if you don't take smg. You can even take the smg they still get chest mines for defense. I think they were a bigger boost to Morats than people are giving credit.

K1 sniper has to overcome sniper damage and DA ammo, since it cost (near?) as much as a MSR. Not sure why that wasn't fixed, maybe there's something I'm missing. Anyone know a reason it could be worth it? I think if they lose K1 sniper it should be for feuerbach though, that seems more fitting.

 

Edit:

 Here's a list for example with the Krakots. Two Vanguard are used so one is a decoy, but that leaves two slots being taken as 14 points. I could pick Vanguard, Daturazi or Krakots. Vanguard don't do anything but provide orders, Daturazi are extremely impetuous so they are unstable orders, and I already have 3 giving me plenty of smoke, But Krakots won't run out, provide DZ defense, and I can choose to use their impetuous orders and powerful double template or CC to mess things up when I need to. I think these things are as good as Jaguars, in some ways better in others worse. Having them on a sectorial that has trouble with cheap units is pretty useful.

logo_602.png Morat Aggression Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_10.pngZERAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Panzerfaust / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 30)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 36)
logo_1.pngMORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_1.pngMORAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
logo_15.pngMED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_20.pngSLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_17.pngQ-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png3
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Combi Rifle + Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 21)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_10.pngZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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Won't let me edit again. Just want to say, decoy lt. obviously is pointless. I'm new to Morat lists, you don't need that, that's insane.

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1 hour ago, Loricus said:

Ahhahahahahahahaha. Yeah wartrader really needs to work on being impartial and not argumentative :laugh:

 

Anyways, for Vanguard. I love them. If you could put them on Corregidor that would be great.

I think, outside of link, Krakot should be used as the cheerleader now, like how Jaguars are on Correg. I almost never use more than 3 cheerleaders out of link anyways. What do people think of this? I don't see a down side, they cost similar, are still veteran, and have template DZ defense. Only cover and suppression fire if you don't take smg. You can even take the smg they still get chest mines for defense. I think they were a bigger boost to Morats than people are giving credit.

K1 sniper has to overcome sniper damage and DA ammo, since it cost (near?) as much as a MSR. Not sure why that wasn't fixed, maybe there's something I'm missing. Anyone know a reason it could be worth it? I think if they lose K1 sniper it should be for feuerbach though, that seems more fitting.

 

Edit:

 Here's a list for example with the Krakots. Two Vanguard are used so one is a decoy, but that leaves two slots being taken as 14 points. I could pick Vanguard, Daturazi or Krakots. Vanguard don't do anything but provide orders, Daturazi are extremely impetuous so they are unstable orders, and I already have 3 giving me plenty of smoke, But Krakots won't run out, provide DZ defense, and I can choose to use their impetuous orders and powerful double template or CC to mess things up when I need to. I think these things are as good as Jaguars, in some ways better in others worse. Having them on a sectorial that has trouble with cheap units is pretty useful.

logo_602.png Morat Aggression Force
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_10.pngZERAT Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 34)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Panzerfaust / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 30)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 36)
logo_1.pngMORAT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_1.pngMORAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
logo_15.pngMED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_20.pngSLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_17.pngQ-DRONE HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png3
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Combi Rifle + Smoke Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 21)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_10.pngZERAT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun, Grenades, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Totally did not think of them as order monkies, good point, regular impetuous does help with that. I'm trying to use Krakot as protection of my Zerat, close enough that they are protected by the templates of their mines or chain rifles.

On an off note, if one of the Morat fireteams had mech dep, or advanced dep that actually might help with the idea of the favtion being more aggressive. That being said, "Vanguard" though might become 15 points base by that and turned into MI with more ARM actually might and amazing change. Perhaps a bit too different from every other Line infantry but, USARF can potentially bring 12 fucking HFT grunts in someones DZ...

For the K1 Sniper, I thought two different approaches, exchange it with the Yaogat MSR and give the Yaogat MM1 to balance it out, if they want the same effect on the regular to cheaper troops, just hit them with a panzerfaust. Or, up the damage to maybe 13 on the K1, it's not like it's monofilament ammo.

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16 hours ago, .Troll said:

I noticed that your list has a lone Ozznat. Can I ask what your thinking is in including it?. My personal opinion is that lone Oznats are a little redundant since they became extreme impetuous I would be interested to hear your opinion on this and what you feel that one adds to your army.

 

16 hours ago, jake richmond said:

I was wondering about that as well. The Daturazi with boarding Shotgun isn't quite as fast, but he's FAR better in CC, better at throwing smoke, better at Dodging, better at shooting and harder to hit. Were you just testing the Oznat out, or are you finding her useful in some way that the Daturazi isn't? or do you just dig the model?

Yeah, that was just to test out the Oznat some.  She and the Rasyat are mostly there so I can experiment with some updated profiles.

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1 hour ago, ToadChild said:

 

Yeah, that was just to test out the Oznat some.  She and the Rasyat are mostly there so I can experiment with some updated profiles.

Fair enough. If you never try something out you will never know. I have tried the new Rasyat and he is still pretty cool however I do miss MA 3 on him. 

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New Rasyat has done amazing. Very popular for both CA players in our meta, on vanilla and MAF. I consider it improved from HS.

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9 minutes ago, Loricus said:

New Rasyat has done amazing. Very popular for both CA players in our meta, on vanilla and MAF. I consider it improved from HS.

Rasyats have always been a solid troop choose for MAF since they came about in HSN2. I do like that all profiles have NBW now.

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Guys, can I encourage you all to not jump to conclusions, or snipe at each other for doing so? Please? If you want to argue with someone, PM is a great place for that. Work it out there.

 

13 hours ago, Dasaan said:

The core problem of MAF is that the Morat rule is designed to make Lieutenants a disposable troop, but no Morat troop is designed to be a disposable standalone Lieutenant.  The only Morat Lieutenant I see with any synergy in the army is Kornak.

!00% agreed. I often say see people saying that Morat Lieutenants are disposable because of the Morat rule, but while i understand what they mean I think it's a mistake to look at the rule as anything other than a safety net. No Morat is disposable. They're too expensive for that, in an expensive army that will always be low on orders and where for the most part tropps are not optimized to be efficient. Losing your Lieutenant means you've lost anywhere from 15 to 57 points (plus SWC) and thats a bigger deal for Morats than almost any other army because Morats are bringing less to the table than almost any other army. Of course having the safety net of ignoring Lossof Lieutenant does allow us to field an aggressive LT., but we still can't afford to lose that model except in situations that give us an obvious advantage. Part of the problem with the Morat rule is that it encourages both suicidal Lieutenants AND games of attrition. But winning through attrition requires making unequal trades that are in your favor, and that's not something Morats are great, and something that's hard to do anyway when you have less troops and they;re more expensive than what your opponent brought.

11 hours ago, MMMMK said:

And if I could give one small bit of advice to you guys as you move forward with your petitions, ect., it would be to keep whatever recommendations you do give to CB as small as possible. I'm sure as game designers they will look at a suggestion like "Give unit X the following abilities: A, B, C and D and then he will be fixed", roll their eyes, and send the email directly to the delete folder. You might have better luck by sticking to something really minor like adding a Sniffer profile to Zerats (to give them a niche in Vanilla CA as well as Morats) or increasing armor on Vanguards by a single point, ect. Just a thought.

 

I think that has a lot of merit. I work in comics now, but before that I worked in game design, and an idea that was common in both was that if you get feedback or criticism that points out a problem, the problem is very likely there. But the solution that is suggested along with that feedback or criticism is rarely ever correct. So while I do enjoy coming up with ideas and feedback, and while i don't think making suggestions to CB is a bad idea, ultimately I think the best course of action is pointing out that there is a problem and letting CB come up with their own solution.

Of course, that assumes that CB agrees that there is a problem at all. I wouldn't expect them to come out and say "We know we just released HSN3, but it turns out we didn't really do a great job with Morats, so we'll be changing them". That's a ridiculous expectation, even if CB 100% agreed that Morats need fixing. If anything, I'd expect something along the lines of "We're looking into how we might change and improve MAF in the future." But from the small indications we've received from Carlos and others it appears (to me) CB currently think Morats are just fine. 

6 hours ago, Morganus said:

The thing is, we are talking about space monkeyz here, so it would be cool to have their natural 3 dimensional mobility they most probably had on their homeworld shine through on their lightest unit

I personally don't see Morats as monkey's. I don't think that was ever the intent with the design (despite the fact that Carlos and others sometimes refers to them as monkeys or apes). There's nothing in the Morat fluff or rules to really suggest that Morats have any monkey or ape traits (any more than Humans do, anyway), so I've never assumed that Morats would be naturally better at jumping or climbing. In fact, only a single Morat model naturally has Climbing Plus (Anyat). Rodaks get their Super Jump from their very bulky equipment. Now that's just my personal opinion, but I've always felt that Morats were more obviously inspired by Oni. They're larger and stronger than humans, have red skin, large horns and bushy white hair and beards, favor large martial weapons and operate with a warrior code. Much of their armor and uniform seems inspired by feudal Japanese styles.

All that said, I wouldn't mind seeing more climbing plus. I'd really love to see a second Skirmisher for MAF.

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I play 10 model Aleph, and my favorite Lt. is Ajax with a Officer CoC backup (before the CoC price drop too). "Disposable" is not the same as "suicidal". All it means is that the only disadvantage to losing them is losing them. The CoC myrm pays 5 points and 1 swc for this ability, to a much lesser power. Morats pay more points but no swc, and it is much more reliable.

It doesn't make your Lt. suicidal. It makes him exactly as important as any other unit. That is powerful, both on the board and in list building. Ajax is 39 points and I play 10 model. He's more suicidal than any Morat unit at that cost. You can trade up if you need to, just don't die on the first guy you are killing. Or, don't use it sacrifically, just use it like a normal unit with an extra order.

That in mind, Morats should get more Lt. profiles. Spitfire Yaogat! Combi+flamethrower Zeryat! IDK that would be fun. I would love a new unit like Ajax, but that's just cuz I love him. Maybe 2 W dogged reg Impetuous? I'll work something out so I have my own headcanon Morat to demand. :lol:

If the argument is that Morats need more stuff for fun, I agree with that. They just got Krakots, have a lot of guys, and just fixed all their bad units (imo). I really don't feel like they are weaker enough than other sectorials to make any difference right now, but I do plan on playing them soon so I'll see.

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35 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I play 10 model Aleph, and my favorite Lt. is Ajax with a Officer CoC backup (before the CoC price drop too). "Disposable" is not the same as "suicidal". All it means is that the only disadvantage to losing them is losing them. The CoC myrm pays 5 points and 1 swc for this ability, to a much lesser power. Morats pay more points but no swc, and it is much more reliable.

It doesn't make your Lt. suicidal. It makes him exactly as important as any other unit. That is powerful, both on the board and in list building. Ajax is 39 points and I play 10 model. He's more suicidal than any Morat unit at that cost. You can trade up if you need to, just don't die on the first guy you are killing. Or, don't use it sacrifically, just use it like a normal unit with an extra order.

That in mind, Morats should get more Lt. profiles. Spitfire Yaogat! Combi+flamethrower Zeryat! IDK that would be fun. I would love a new unit like Ajax, but that's just cuz I love him. Maybe 2 W dogged reg Impetuous? I'll work something out so I have my own headcanon Morat to demand. :lol:

I think you're maybe missing what I'm saying. I see MANY people talking about Morats being able to run a suicidal Lieutenant. Talking about throwing Kornak or a Suryat at the enemy and then just choosing a new Lieutenant the next turn. That kind of approach just doesn't work well unless you can force an uneven trade, and that's not something Morats are good at (Ajax is very good at that, in my opinion). Morats benefit greatly from not having to worry about the Loss of Lieutenant rule, but suffer from losing any model, including their Lieutenant.  I'm not talking about using your Lt. as best you can and, if he unfortunately dies, being glad that you have a safety net. I'm talking about players sending their Lt out to die as if he's a Gaki or a Galwegian, knowing that if that one fails they have another right behind it to throw into the fire. Now that may be less of a rules issue and more of a playstyle choice, but I see it commonly referenced as a Morat advantage since N3. 

 

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8 hours ago, Loricus said:

K1 sniper has to overcome sniper damage and DA ammo, since it cost (near?) as much as a MSR. Not sure why that wasn't fixed, maybe there's something I'm missing. Anyone know a reason it could be worth it? I think if they lose K1 sniper it should be for feuerbach though, that seems more fitting.

It's only a point cheaper and more importantly 1SWC compared to 1.5 for the MSR, but I'd trade for an MSR every time.

I think K1 ammo being fixed DAM12 is a big issue, on Combis it's fine because you're only losing 1 Damage, a K1 Sniper with DAM14 wouldn't feel like such a bad deal. Or at least K1+Shock

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11 hours ago, wuji said:

Apologies to @jake richmond, Dude, I'm sorry your thread got hit by this bull shit, but I know you recognize it, IMO, IJW is pathetic, he thinks himself a cyber Samurai and I'm sick of it. Let all who read this thread know it. and just incase he unlikes the post here's the pic of it. 

Edit, trouble loading photo, just tried on phone as well, this will have to wait, but no matter still got the proof of an A hole.

The irony in your post is bewildering... You do realise you're the one here on the forums with your knickers in a twist raging on the keyboard because your favoured faction doesnt have what you want it to have... :S and you think that posting here will attact CBs attention and force them to make the changes you want?

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Just now, Scarecrow said:

The irony in your post is bewildering... You do realise you're the one here on the forums with your knickers in a twist raging on the keyboard because your favoured faction doesnt have what you want it to have... :S and you think that posting here will attact CBs attention and force them to make the changes you want?

Enough. Please. Wuji was out of line, but continuing to call him out only serves to derail this thread. 

Also,one of the specific points of this thread is to discuss changes here in thehope that it will attract CBs attention and encourage them to make the changes that we want. if you don't like that, please consider ignoring this thread.

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Jake's right, if you want to comment behavior or play a shouting match take it to PMs. We've lost enough MAF threads thanks to this.

@Loricus: I like your idea about Krakots. I've used them once or twice, and they definitely have the potential. I need to test them some more.

As for Lt, I agree that it can't be run as 'suicidal', but can take bigger risks, because his death won't cost me a turn. This means that instead of using Lt. order to retreat into safety I can instead put him into Suppresive Fire, advance into position that'll give my opponents more problems, take one last shot at important enemy unit, etc.

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@jake richmond well they should figure that out. Consider my reply to them through you.

I mean, why is it different? If a Lt. not putting you in LoL means he can suicide run, that's true about every other unit. Losing a non-Lt., say, Taskmaster, also does not put you in LoL. But we consider sacrificing that inadvisable.

What Morat means is that you have no Lt., just a guy with a free order.

The Morat rule advantage is no small thing, and can still be played to. I see Kornak hiding in a corner all the time. I find that playing risky, something you would only do with a Lt. if you can't LoL, makes a unit super powerful. I plan to make the Sogorat Lt. I play terrifying. Assault pistol looks like gold to me.

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18 minutes ago, Loricus said:

@jake richmond well they should figure that out. Consider my reply to them through you.

I mean, why is it different? If a Lt. not putting you in LoL means he can suicide run, that's true about every other unit. Losing a non-Lt., say, Taskmaster, also does not put you in LoL. But we consider sacrificing that inadvisable.

What Morat means is that you have no Lt., just a guy with a free order.

The Morat rule advantage is no small thing, and can still be played to. I see Kornak hiding in a corner all the time. I find that playing risky, something you would only do with a Lt. if you can't LoL, makes a unit super powerful. I plan to make the Sogorat Lt. I play terrifying. Assault pistol looks like gold to me.

My point is that Morats can't afford to throw away any unit. Not unless they can guarantee an unequal trade or accomplish something of similar value. That doesn't mean that a Morat Lieutenant should hide in the corner either, but there's a difference between using your Lieutenant well and being reckless, and I've seen a lot of people look at the Morat ability to ignore LoL and call it an excuse to play their Lieutenant in a reckless way. Different people have different playstyles, and thats fine, but I see this (specifically this) listed as a Morat advantage frequently, and I think that it's not at all.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Different subject. Can we talk about the Raicho for a moment?

I know that not everyone feels like there's anything wrong with the Raicho, and in previous threads I often heard people say that it was meant to be a generic TAG and is fine as is. While I agree that the Raicho was meant to be a generic TAG, i don't think that a generic TAG has much of a role in MAF. I played the Raicho extensively in N2 when it was arguably much better than it is now, and while it was often effective I found that it wasn't particularly exciting, and bringing it in a list felt very limiting. After the changes in N3 (to both the Raicho and the game in general) I feel like the Raicho is less compelling than ever. It's still the best individual model for winning face to face rolls in MAF, but it's marginally better in that role than the much cheaper Rodok, Suryat or Sogarat. It's conspicuously low WIP (no other Morat has WIP 12) makes it more vulnerable to hacking than it should be (even if the Morat ability allows it to ignore one of several hacking attacks). Most importantly, it's super expensive in one of the game's most expensive armies, and seriously restricts list building choices without being a particularly compelling choice. I know this is the fate of many generic TAGs, but does the Raicho have to be so generic? Why can't an alien TAG be more novel? Especially an alien TAG that is the favored war machine of the galaxy's most destructive military force?

I'd love to hear some interesting ideas, minor or invasive, for changing the Raicho into something more interesting.

In the last thread Counting_Kittens (I think) suggested this:

" Alright, the Raicho is really boring. All factions seem to have the default TAG but even by those standards the Raicho doesn't really feel like much. In vanilla its completely eclipsed by other options, and in Morats there's better stuff to take. So the "A no frills TAG in every faction" is a design guideline I feel very comfortable breaking. I wonder if Berserk might be a possibility (along with a CC boost)? The O-Yoroi has shown that CB are willing to give TAGs CC related skills after all. I'd also boost the WIP (or at least give it V: Courage) and give the actual pilot either an assault pistol or heavy pistol (this I will admit is a purely fluffy choice). Someone earlier mentioned the idea of a dual-Autocannon profile which I have to admit I absolutely love. Its unique, serves a distinct role, and would quite frankly be scary as hell. "

I really like the idea of a Raicho with some close combat punch. That seems VERY Morat to me (especially since we know that unarmed Raicho are used in a specific Morat hunting ritual). Awhile ago I suggested a cheaper version of the Raicho that replaced the Multi HMG with a pair of Heavy Shotguns and EXP CCW and gave the TAG the Assault skill. I also really like the idea of either 2 Autocannons replacing the Multi HMG,  or a SIngle Autocannon and a very substantial price decrease.

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I'd phrase it as always being able to use the LT Order, and not caring that much about losing the LT in comparison to losing anyone else, so you can afford to take risks with a Morat LT that you couldn't with the LT in any non-Chain of Command force. That's a long way from being suicidal with the LT.

It's slightly less true of Kornak because of being able to add his LT Order to the Order Pool, so there's extra incentive to keep him alive.

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 If I tried to change up the Raicho so I would play it, it would basically becone to Sogorat. If I was just changing it so it was differentiated, I would probably just throw something unique on it.

How about another profile that loses HFT for Chest Mines and Heavy Pistol. That would give close range face-to-face, keeps the template, has CC, and feels distinctly Morat. In testing the chest mines mixed with heavy Pistol might need a small point tax. There's probably a reason they lose HFT for the pistol on other TAG.

I'd like to see a weapon on the Pilot. Seems right for a Morat, even Geckos get one now. Maybe heavy pistol?

 

@IJW Wartrader exactly, I'm taking Brigada MULTI while paying swc for Alguacil because of my plans for him. In MAF you never have to worry about that.

With Kornak it's just that he is so powerful and always shows it when he is used, but gets left behind because of Lt. protection instincts. He is a powerful combatant, it feels like a waste to treat him like Voronin, just an 11th order. It seems silly to think "I get his Lt. order on anyone, that means I don't have to use it on him!". It's not uncommon for him to be the best guy to use anyways, get out there and MDK.

That being said, using him lets you act like that rasyat or zerat is your Lt., that's pretty cool.

 

Another thing I'm realizing is that MAF is really hard to alpha strike. Their order generators have DTW and it's pointless to aim for Lt. Maybe that should be capitalized on in list building, by trying to keep out obvious targets like only having one smoke unit or one long range unit, I dunno. That's how I build my ALEPH.  Dr. Worm will always be a good target, I'm starting to think I should be assassinating him. Maybe I should mentally prepare for playing Morats without him so losing him isn't a big weakness.

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22 minutes ago, jake richmond said:

. . . 

Different subject. Can we talk about the Raicho for a moment?

I know that not everyone feels like there's anything wrong with the Raicho, and in previous threads I often heard people say that it was meant to be a generic TAG and is fine as is. While I agree that the Raicho was meant to be a generic TAG, i don't think that a generic TAG has much of a role in MAF. I played the Raicho extensively in N2 when it was arguably much better than it is now, and while it was often effective I found that it wasn't particularly exciting, and bringing it in a list felt very limiting. After the changes in N3 (to both the Raicho and the game in general) I feel like the Raicho is less compelling than ever. It's still the best individual model for winning face to face rolls in MAF, but it's marginally better in that role than the much cheaper Rodok, Suryat or Sogarat. It's conspicuously low WIP (no other Morat has WIP 12) makes it more vulnerable to hacking than it should be (even if the Morat ability allows it to ignore one of several hacking attacks). Most importantly, it's super expensive in one of the game's most expensive armies, and seriously restricts list building choices without being a particularly compelling choice. I know this is the fate of many generic TAGs, but does the Raicho have to be so generic? Why can't an alien TAG be more novel? Especially an alien TAG that is the favored war machine of the galaxy's most destructive military force?

I'd love to hear some interesting ideas, minor or invasive, for changing the Raicho into something more interesting.

In the last thread Counting_Kittens (I think) suggested this:

" Alright, the Raicho is really boring. All factions seem to have the default TAG but even by those standards the Raicho doesn't really feel like much. In vanilla its completely eclipsed by other options, and in Morats there's better stuff to take. So the "A no frills TAG in every faction" is a design guideline I feel very comfortable breaking. I wonder if Berserk might be a possibility (along with a CC boost)? The O-Yoroi has shown that CB are willing to give TAGs CC related skills after all. I'd also boost the WIP (or at least give it V: Courage) and give the actual pilot either an assault pistol or heavy pistol (this I will admit is a purely fluffy choice). Someone earlier mentioned the idea of a dual-Autocannon profile which I have to admit I absolutely love. Its unique, serves a distinct role, and would quite frankly be scary as hell. "

I really like the idea of a Raicho with some close combat punch. That seems VERY Morat to me (especially since we know that unarmed Raicho are used in a specific Morat hunting ritual). Awhile ago I suggested a cheaper version of the Raicho that replaced the Multi HMG with a pair of Heavy Shotguns and EXP CCW and gave the TAG the Assault skill. I also really like the idea of either 2 Autocannons replacing the Multi HMG,  or a SIngle Autocannon and a very substantial price decrease.

Yes let's!

I've been wanting to talk about this for a while, but every time I notice someone has brought it up it's been too long, and it would have been weird to post about it.

First I'll say that I play a lot of this type of TAG, and I love them. I would definitely play the Raicho in vanilla CA at least. I understand that CA has very expensive and powerful HI options that encroach on the Raicho's role, but so does Yu Jing, and it doesn't make the Guijia any less viable or unique.

The Raicho is basically a Guijia with the Morat skill, and one less WIP. They both share the increased CC ability which makes it somewhat more resilient and less of an attractive target to warbands, one of the main ways of distracting or even killing TAGs. It's true that they are not the best TAGs at CC anymore, but their boost is good enough and cheap enough that I feel it's worth appreciating. For the cost increase over the Lizard, I'd take the CC upgrade every time.

The Morat skill makes it immune to what is, in my opinion, the most dangerous hacking attack against a TAG. Without an engineer present, Isolation is almost as good as dead for a TAG. I'd rather have my TAG possessed than isolated every time, so I consider it an excellent ability for a 'generic' MBT (Main Battle TAG, or Generic TAGs) like the Raicho. For the cost increase over the Guijia, I'd buy Morat every time.

I know a lot of players disparage the Raicho, just like many players disparage the Guijia, but there is nothing actually wrong with these TAGs. In fact, it's not even fair to call them generic anymore, since there has been some differentiation between the MBTs, and the only that seem truly similar at this point of the Guijia and Lizard to me. The HFT isn't even generic equipment anymore, since several TAGs lost the option. It's easy to overlook that the HFT is the advantage, not just the default, because it doesn't feel new. The Morat ability makes a big difference in the Raicho, All of these TAGs are only as similar as other troops who fill the same role in different factions (Maakrep vs Yaogat vs Djan), but I think they seem more similar because they are so different from non TAG troops, it's easy to compare them to each other too critically. The truth is, many player's don't like TAGs to begin with.

"i don't think that a generic TAG has much of a role in MAF." This is the important part. As a non Morat player I don't really know about this. The Guijia is excellent within Yu JIng, but I have found that I don't like the idea of  TAGs as much in Sectorial Armies. Link teams kind of take their place, and Vanilla can run TAG lists just as well or better than Sectorials can. Currently, my belief is either that:

  1. You're right, there is just no need to take an MBT in the Morat Aggression Force. This is entirely plausible.
  2. You and many other Raicho detractors don't like MBT's to begin with. It isn't the Raicho's fault at all. Since I know that there isn't anything wrong with the Raicho's price or kit from experience, I usually lean towards this assumption, although the first might be as likely.
  3. There is a rule or rules interaction that I've missed and I'm totally unaware of that makes the Raicho worse than other similar MBT's which I know to be excellent.

When I see comment's around in other threads like 'The Raicho sucks' or generally joking about the Raicho, I feel strongly in favor of option 2, and it seems like those players are the same ones who don't think TAGs are competitive in general. It can be hard not to just say "maybe you should just practice with it" to those players.

I guess I want to ask, do you think the Guijia, Lizard, Maghariba and Squalo are useful in their factions, and do you consider them unique from each other and from competing HI? Do you think they are worth their points, and do you think they are competitive in ITS? Do you think the Raicho has value in Vanilla CA?  Why or why not? Do you think MBTs are worthwhile in Sectorial armies at all? If the answer to all of these is yes, then I'm seriously inclined to believe you that the Raicho might not work for MAF. If the answers are no then perhaps the Raicho just isn't for you. I hope you understand my skepticism considering the general attitude towards TAGs.

Finally, I commend you for moderation here Jake. This is the most constructive the Morat conversation has been for some time.

 

 

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As I said, I ran the Raicho a lot in N2 and early N3, and while i love the model, it just never felt very exciting to play. On the other hand, I like taking the Squalo in PanO quite a bit (although I haven't run it since N3) and have enjoyed the Guija the few times I've run it in Yujing (I'm new to Yujing). I'm not entirely sure why those TAGs feel compelling to me but the near identical Raicho doesn't, although it's possible that I want the Raicho to be something special/different because it seems to be like Morats should have a suitably different TAG. I do know that from a list building perspective I can take either of those TAGs and still build a fully fleshed out list, just because both YuJing and PanO are substantially cheaper than MAF. Getting a meaningful Morat list that includes the Raicho is always a challenge.

As I pointed out before, the Raicho's shooting capabilities no longer seem like anything too special in MAF. Or rather, there doesn't seem to me to be enough distance between the Sogarat and the Raicho. Maybe that's most of the problem though. The Sogarat has some flaws, but it does the TAGs job pretty well, and because of that the Raicho often ends up seeming dull to me.

 

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Please keep in topic and avoid personally attacking other forum users.

 

You may disagree but you may not insult each other.

 

Thanks.

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3 minutes ago, jake richmond said:

As I said, I ran the Raicho a lot in N2 and early N3, and while i love the model, it just never felt very exciting to play. On the other hand, I like taking the Squalo in PanO quite a bit (although I haven't run it since N3) and have enjoyed the Guija the few times I've run it in Yujing (I'm new to Yujing). I'm not entirely sure why those TAGs feel compelling to me but the near identical Raicho doesn't, although it's possible that I want the Raicho to be something special/different because it seems to be like Morats should have a suitably different TAG. I do know that from a list building perspective I can take either of those TAGs and still build a fully fleshed out list, just because both YuJing and PanO are substantially cheaper than MAF. Getting a meaningful Morat list that includes the Raicho is always a challenge.

As I pointed out before, the Raicho's shooting capabilities no longer seem like anything too special in MAF. Or rather, there doesn't seem to me to be enough distance between the Sogarat and the Raicho. Maybe that's most of the problem though. The Sogarat has some flaws, but it does the TAGs job pretty well, and because of that the Raicho often ends up seeming dull to me.

 

I'd argue that the Guijia's shooting ability is even less unique in Yu Jing, since we have another BS14 Multi HMG available. Both the Multi and BS14 are unique to the Raicho within Morats except for Kornak's BS, right? If that doesn't hold back the Guijia in YJ, then I doubt that particular thing is holding back the Raicho in MAF. Ultimately neither the Yan Huo's firepower nor the Sogarat's resilience fully replace the power of the MBT,

"I'm not entirely sure why those TAGs feel compelling to me but the near identical Raicho doesn't, although it's possible that I want the Raicho to be something special/different because it seems to be like Morats should have a suitably different TAG. "    I'm thinking it's either this...

Or it's the fact that Morats are a bit more expensive than YJ. Still, the latter doesn't really explain why the TAG would be less fun to play, only why it would be harder to bring.

I think there's a good chance the problem is like you said, the Morat TAG isn't matching your (and other's) expectations in character, regardless of effectiveness. Honestly, in my opinion the Morat skill is powerful and unique enough on a TAG that the Raicho is actually one of the most different of the MBTs, alongside the Maghariba for her size, price, and optional visor. It is still an MBT however, it can't escape that classification.

Do you envision the Morat TAG being more akin to a heavy TAG like the Jotum, or a light or medium TAG like the Tikbalang or the O-Yoroi? I know you've mentioned the HRMC in the past, but +1 burst from 4 to 5 isn't nearly as exciting or unique feeling as people expect it to be I think. The change certainly wouldn't bother me, but I don't think it would be very satisfying for Morat players either. You'd go from being a Morat Guijia to a Morat Szalamandra. Dual Autocannons sounds slightly too powerful to me, rolling 9 potential AP hits at 15 damage out to 32 inches with pretty good F2F winning ability. 9 is a lot more than 5, the highest that other TAGs can output. I would however love to see a CQB shotgun-like weapon distributed to several TAGs to expand their roles within the setting.

Do you have other idea's for the Raicho? I could definitely see a full sized medium option like the O-Yoroi with some extra kit as reasonable for a Morat TAG. Maybe with 7 ARM, mines, normal HMG and HFT? The price would come down of course. What if it stayed the same but just got both HFT and dual Heavy Pistol, making it the premier TAG for close range flexibility? Would either of these be better suited in MAF?

In case you're wondering I'm just trying to help draw out ideas and temper them, using your experience with the faction to give them context and make them meaningful.

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