PsychoticStorm

This is the Morats thread

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@PsychoticStorm: I understand that the same discussion going on in several different threads might be annoying, but was it really necessary to close all other threads?

Could you at least include links to old threads in the first post? There were quite a few good ideas in there and it would make it easier for people joining the discussion to find older content.

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I will include the links on the first post.

 

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So to continue the discussion I found very fascinating, how to make the Raicho more interesting? I definitely think a heavy TAG is the way to go, seems the Morat way to me. I think that if a an "evil" alien race attacks humankind the thing you would be terrified of would be their giant killer robots, no? Also a resculpt that would make me actually want to own it!

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I'm one of those people that consider Raicho to be perfectly fine, even if it's 'just' a standard MBT. The only thing I don't understand is that WIP 12. Other than that it's in the same league as Guijia, Lizard or Squalo. I don't think it needs changes, especially as there are other units in more dire need of an upgrade.

Raicho is also one of the reasons I'm wary of giving too much power to Sogarat, which might then encroach too much upon our TAGs territory.

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This was not needed. I'm very unhappy. I spent many hours over the last few days putting together a calm and reasonable thread full of solid and friendly discussion. I'm tired of you shutting down Morat threads. Congratulations, you've officially driven me from this community. I can tell where I'm neither valued or wanted.

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I have to agree with @jake richmond, this was really uncalled for. 

@PsychoticStorm Instead of addressing the 2-3 people that can't behave you decide to apply collective punishment? If the other threads, in your opinion, was difficult to moderate - what makes you think this will be any easier? Because it's stickied?

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I'm in the camp that thinks the Raicho is fine, even kind of good for a regular battle tag. I think he's even decent in the MAF sectorial (as opposed to in vanilla CA) because of support from a Kurgat haris, but that's something I never got the chance to try so maybe it's better on paper than in reality. It is a pretty plain tag, though, so I get why people don't like it, but I think StarTraveller nailed it in the other thread in talking about the Raicho so I'll just end it there.

 

Edit: But if we're getting goofy, I always liked the idea of a lighter Morat tag with Assault, a good CC score (19+) and maybe a DA CCW and a Spitfire or some other lighter kind of assault weapon. Thinking of something like Scarface but actually decent in melee. I would play it :)

 

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I would like to add my voice to @Malinarminfru's opinions. There were different conversations in each one, ITS lists, unit changes, problem units as seen from outside MAF. That is something that due to the nature of threads is not likely to be reproduced in one single thread. It will be a shame to lose such good conversations.

But since it has been done I would like to request a link to the "Another stinking morat thread" because as a new user it was helpful to understand what the threats of the MAF were from the outside. Hopefully a similar discussion will take place here.

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I have to agree this is a heavy handed move at best and will do little but stifle the different lines of conversations that were going on in the other threads. 

 

 

As for the Raicho, it is adequate. That seems to be the running theme of Morats, adequate. 

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2 hours ago, MMMMK said:

I'm in the camp that thinks the Raicho is fine, even kind of good for a regular battle tag. I think he's even decent in the MAF sectorial (as opposed to in vanilla CA) because of support from a Kurgat haris, but that's something I never got the chance to try so maybe it's better on paper than in reality. It is a pretty plain tag, though, so I get why people don't like it, but I think StarTraveller nailed it in the other thread in talking about the Raicho so I'll just end it there.

I agree with this, with one addition. Its not just good on paper. In the past 2 weeks, I've played the same Raicho list in 3 games against Haqqislam, Ariadna and JSA and thoroughly stomped all 3, even putting the Haqqislam into a retreat round 3. EXP HMG ammo is great in ARO, especially with BS14, and shock/AP ammo B4 in the active turn puts many 1W models straight to dead. It doesn't have anything super special, but I don't think it needs it. My only thought is that it might be 5-7 points more expensive than it should be, but that's just my opinion. Plus a LT loadout would be nice. 

And since everyone seems to be weighing in on the mod situation, I'm going to have to stand behind @PsychoticStorm on this one. As a mod, sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils and when multiple threads fall apart with personal attacks, you have to change tactics. It might seem heavy-handed to us, but as someone who has closed entire sections of forums for the same behaviour, I can say this is the lesser evil. 

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On the Raicho: I would like to see a Lt. option for him. This way, Morats would profit from their racial skill, giving them the option of another aggressive lieutenant (and a free order) without the drawback Lt. TAGs of other factions have.

I also want to express that I'm happy with the way @PsychoticStorm handles this. Even some of the "nicer" threads had name-calling in them and the only reason they didn't go downhill was that the people offended, for example @IJW Wartrader chose to ignore it.

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When locking a thread doesn't cool people off and it continues, the individuals need to know what behavior is wrong and that continuation could have consequences. I've gotten the impression that some have no idea that they are causing problems. I'll leave that to the moderator's discretion, I don't actually have experience in things like this, and I generally like how these forums have been moderated.

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It's already looking like this thread is on the verge of devolving into another wish list thread... Here's to hoping we can discuss actual Morat tactics though!

Right now I'm cooking up a couple fun lists for Morats, both built around accomplishing moderate objective count scenarios (like Supplies or Supremacy...

logo_602.png Monkey Spam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png6  orden_irregular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png5
logo_12.pngOZNAT Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 18)
logo_13.pngGAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
logo_13.pngGAKI AP CCW. (0 | 4)
logo_14.pngPRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7)
logo_14.pngPRETA Chain Rifle / AP CCW. (0 | 7)
logo_1.pngMORAT Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 19)
logo_1.pngMORAT HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
logo_1.pngMORAT (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
logo_1.pngMORAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
logo_1.pngMORAT Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  orden_impetuosa.png6
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
logo_25.pngKRAKOT RENEGADE 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 14)
logo_2.pngKURGAT (Fireteam: Haris) Operative Group) Mk12, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 24)
logo_2.pngKURGAT (Operative Group) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
logo_2.pngKURGAT (Operative Group) Boarding Shotgun, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 17)
logo_15.pngMED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_20.pngSLAVE DRONE Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

First list has 20 orders, plus 11 Impetuous. Turn 1 would probably start with the hungries linked and Daturazi deployed far enough back to move up with impetuous and throw smoke without exposing themselves to enemy ARO's. After that, maybe move a couple of them up extending the smoke screen for the Hungries to run forward before breaking link to link up the Vanguard. I'm annoyed by the lack of a suppressive fire weapon on the Krakrot, but I may have to get over that, similarly, I'm not sure if I care for the Hacker in the Vanguard, but I need to keep Classified mission in mind.

To back up this list, the second list to accompany it would be:

logo_602.png Monkey Fist!
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_3.pngRODOK HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 27)
logo_3.pngRODOK Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
logo_3.pngRODOK Paramedic (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 21)
logo_3.pngRODOK Hacker (EI Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
logo_3.pngRODOK Lieutenant Combi Rifle, 2 Light Shotguns / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT Hacker (EI Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Grenades / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 36)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT Spitfire / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 32)
logo_4.pngYAOGAT (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle + Panzerfaust / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 30)
logo_5.pngRASYAT Combi Rifle, D-Charges, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 29)
logo_21.pngIKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_21.pngIKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 9)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)
logo_11.pngDĀTURAZI Chain Rifle, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 14)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Very much the opposite, but brings a lot of toys. A 5-man Rodok link backed up by a Yaogat link with mandatory Daturazi. With two hackers, the Ikadrons become pretty fun, giving fast repeaters with flash pulses, and a Rasyat for another nasty surprise. Very much an in-your-face list.

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Personally, as a longtime collecter of Morats and follower of MAF related threads I've recently been pleased with the relatively high volume of topics being discussed, given that months can go by without a single meaningful conversation occurring.  

Were the recent topics without flaws?  No. The insistence of some members taking umbrage at innocuous comments to the point of responding with explicit attack flies in the face of the spirit of co-operation that this hobby is founded upon. As such, I'd rather focus on quality of conversation rather than quantity - it's my hope that this intervention by moderators doesn't discourage individuals from further exploring the numerous avenues of inquiry that most of us have been enjoying so far. 

As for the Raicho, I'm in the camp that would like to see change purely for fluff and funsies. As such, I'd like to see Bezerk and Explode added,  preferably with Iguana style ejection system for the pilot.  Run your stomping robot into the thick of battle, club a horde of armoured humans, then fire your battle crazed operator to safety as a critical hit triggers your mass of ammunition to wipe out any survivors. Now that's my my kind of over the top cinematic Morat overkill...

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2 hours ago, PsychoticStorm said:

 

This is a call to reason and a warning to whoever wants to disrupt the discussion again.

This first part is directly to Psychotic Storm, so please no one try to attack me cause you think I'm the only one to blame, but this concern does need to be known publicly. PS, I would expect after PMing you that you would actually be fair, recognize all insults whether big or small, subtle or obvious and publicly tell those members to stop. Several members have repeatedly tried to jab at me in different ways to varying degrees and more members don't recognize the behavior because it isn't actually directed at them so it then becomes inconsequential or it is so subtle that it is not noticed and I thus become a bigger target. I've been working very hard at all of this, just as much as any other member who seeks change for MAF, and to be constantly berated and my opinions belittled is a shame to the very nature of the game to which it encourages cooperative play despite players being pitted against each other on the table top.

Now for all those who have implied my behavior or language is uncalled for (some of it is, definitely poor reaction on my part), it's only fair to every other forum member that you ask of yourselves and those whom you defend how clear yours and their' perspective is and how clean a behavior has been1. In any conflict, there's always two sides to the same story and though publicly no one besides my self has called out several members for their inappropriate and/or negative attitudes (big or small), privately several other members do feel the same way and confided in me similar distress or frustration about some of the members I've called out, often under the impression that some of those members are trying to actively tank the other threads either directly or indirectly by playing off me whilst these members fully under stand the position I seem to be repeatedly forced into and believe my reaction though inappropriately confrontational are fully justified. Simply, that kind of behavior is not right and very disrespectful not just towards myself but to those other players whom are not even considered by the instigators.

Finally as far as the arguing goes. No apologies will be given I'm sure and none expected but for the sake of everyone else, it's best for us all not to be short with each other, let no chance for miscommunication or interpretation of vague statements get in the way of progress.

 

As for MAF, I'm gonna change from specific wish listing to general direction of MAF. 

MAF has been said to be 3 things, professional soldiers, hunters, and warriors.

The warrior bit gets down played by the concept of personal honor being reduced to regimental honor, but the mere fact the troops are given CCWs, Power Armor and high close combat stats means that regardless of personal or regimental honor, MAF still has plenty of warriors. 3 come to mind. Sogarat, Daturazi and Rasyat. The last two fit the bill just fine, the first does not however and I bring up the particular things I have in the past with huge expense so that he might reach a perceived depiction. 

The hunter bit, I actually only see anything resembling hunter remotely in the visored Yaogat via the visor it self and the Oznat via the Hungrues control device. A third troop that should fall into this category is the Zerat by the nature of the unit being entirely female and hunting traditionally or at least regularly being carried out by Morat women. I see no hunting qualities in the Zerat at all and virtually none in the previous 2.

The soldier quality is sort of played out by all Morats in the Morat rule. Those troops who further exemplify soldiery I would describe in their utility, Often toward mission objectives. Vanguard, Kurgat, Rodok and to a much lesser degree Suryat being able to field Raktorak (perhaps we should just say Raktorak instead of Suryat). I believe Suryat should have their own specialist.

Given that Haris and Duo now exists. I would actually be okay if Yaogot had no specialist in exchange for simply being more killy via any skill seemingly related to hunting. I personally feel Oznat and Zerat should also be given more "hunting ability".

The Sogarat is undeniably a tank but it doesn't really feel like any of the three classifications I imagine for Morats and feel it would best fall into the warrior class with some sort of boosts to BS and CC, perhaps even BTS depending on where the other focus is put most.

Raktorak should, based on it's fluff and the majority of votes be the key utility piece for MAF, he should be the soldier's soldier and able to be in any team he's needed. I imagine when becoming a Raktorak they don't go in a room with Daturazi, Oznat or Yaogat etc but with the other purely soldiery troops whom are more in line to advance in rank and stay alive than say the best of Delta or Seals in the MAF regiments.

Any thoughts about direction so that overall the faction feels more fleshed out with direction? This approach seems to have the simplest applications IMO.

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I think the reason so many units don't seem to align with their fluff is because your interpretation is different than what CB intended. I own all the books from N2+, so I'll look in to it. I was designing my own Morat anyways so that will help.

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6 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I think the reason so many units don't seem to align with their fluff is because your interpretation is different than what CB intended. 

You haven't said anything like this to anyone else. I don't think you should be saying it to me either.

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Interpretation of the fluff is, up to a point, subjective, I am open to suggestions if the interpretation of the fluff is important in this discussion, but ones idea of the details can be drastically different from another and this should be accepted.

 

I have to admit it is not a point I had deeply though about.

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30 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I think the reason so many units don't seem to align with their fluff is because your interpretation is different than what CB intended. I own all the books from N2+, so I'll look in to it. I was designing my own Morat anyways so that will help.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I think reading too much into the fluff is always going to lead you down the road to disappointment. That's just as true in this game as any tabletop game I've seen, maybe it's even worse in Infinity because of the propaganda style of fluff that they're going for. It seems like CB's idea of what a Morat should be doesn't go very much farther than the Morat rule itself, which, let's be honest, is actually a pretty powerful rule in lots of situations, even if it doesn't feel like it's doing much game to game. I mean, who else has a 14 point Veteran troop in their army? The only problem for us is, you can't choose not to take the skill, and a lot of the time you'd probably rather just not be paying for it.

 

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1 minute ago, MMMMK said:

Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I think reading too much into the fluff is always going to lead you down the road to disappointment. That's just as true in this game as any tabletop game I've seen, maybe it's even worse in Infinity because of the propaganda style of fluff that they're going for. It seems like CB's idea of what a Morat should be doesn't go very much farther than the Morat rule itself, which, let's be honest, is a pretty powerful rule in itself, even if it doesn't feel like it's doing much game to game. I mean, who else has a 14 point Veteran troop in their army? The only problem for us is, you can't choose not to take the skill, and a lot of the time you'd probably rather just not be paying for it.

 

This is a justifiable argument among any other faction as far as flavor of a unit goes, not necessarily "power" level but playing more like it's supposed "style". I don't understand why if not just because of my own involvement in a statement that others would argue against it when their are countless threads a year proposing change based on fluff. As you can see I didn't actually suggest anything, yet alone anything overtly powerful.

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I do not think a change based on fluff is unjustifiable, wanting things to be in character is a justifiable wish.

 

Is there a deeper dichotomy in what each forum member here interprets as "proper" fluff? 

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