Daboarder

A primer on massed armour operations

311 posts in this topic

Examples of Massed Armour Operations: Economy of force, Spending Orders.

I want to start out the examples by illustrating what I feel is one of the defining elements of a massed armour force, namely the economic application of that force.

A loss of the time the idea of running 2 TAGs or multiple HI is dismissed with the claim that a player will be left with too many models that they wish to spend orders on and not enough orders to do anything with them, effectively “wasting” the points and opportunity spent taking multiple threatening units.

Here I aim to show two ways in which having multiple threatening HI units on the table can be used to your advantage by consolidating your offensive force in a few major threats which are distributed over the board you are able to maximize the efficient use of each threat.

 

In this first example the Panoceania players opponent is setting up during the game and has placed his models on the flanks of the deployment zone. In doing this he has also been smart, deploying his units in such a way that they are tucked slightly back from the corners of the buildings they are behind. This means that while the units in question will be able to engage a model moving up close before it draws parallel with their position they also cannot readily be engaged by the opponents models directly opposite them on the table.

However, the Panoceania player is running a list that focuses on massed offensive power and has taken a pair of heavy offensive units. By taking two such units he is readily able to deploy one on either flank, ensuring that with a single move order each he is able to threaten and eliminate his opponent’s models. If the Panoceania player had been running a single heavy offensive unit it would have taken many more orders moving into position to engage each enemy target, even if they Panoceania unit had begun in a central position. As such, by running 2 offensive units we see how the Panoceania player is spending fewer orders in total to eliminate each enemy piece.

 

uNLyri3.png

 

Examples of Massed Armour Operations: Economy of force, Optimizing Range Bands.

In this example we will look at how having multiple threat units on the table allows you to pick and choose the optimal platform for dealing with a particular satiation.

In this game our Panoceania player has found himself in a bit of a situation. The opponent has manages to pin down some of his threat units. On the left side of the table the Panoceania player has a HI tucked behind a building, on the other side of the building, within ZOC his opponent has hidden a hacker to shut down any HI trying to move in the area. In the middle of the table the Panoceania player has a knight armed with Multi rifle, this would readily be able to deal with the hacker by shooting it from outside its ZOC, unfortunately the opponent has also placed one of his own offensive pieces near a building corner and on suppression fire, meaning that the multi rifle armed knight will have a significant fight on his hands trying to kill this model before even getting a chance to fight the hacker. However on the far right the Panoceania player has an offensive unit such as an ORC HMG outside of the suppression fires likely 24 and therefore, due to his saturation of the table with multiple HI, has all the pieces he needs to eliminate the opponent’s models at minimal order expenditure and risk to his own units.

 

Firstly the Panoceania player moves up the flanking HMG, the suppression model gets an ARO, but will be forced to break his suppression fire if he wants to engage effectively with either a dodge or single shot. After the HMG has dealt with the suppression fire the multi rifle armed knight is able to move up and engage the hacker from outside its ZOC therefore eliminating the risk of suffering a hacking attack back.

In this situation, not only has the Panoceania player effectively dealt with 2 threats to his own units with minimal risk and order expenditure, he has also moved 2 assault pieces up field into positions from which they can advance again and then drop into suppression fire, essentially then forcing the situation he was just in back on the opponent by adopting the same positions.

 

fCkEMYa.png

 

fddpxxU.png

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Daboarder I totally agree with you on these points. The amount of times i get comments on my lists before a game in a tournament saying i should have more than 12 orders is ridiculous. Of course it's always sweet when i mow down 1/4 of their list in my first turn and by turn 2 we are roughly equal in order count. 

Educate them good sir. I'll be watching in the wings. ;)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like this post a lot. it brings together what I think is one of the strengths of Pano. Massed, effective heavy infantry and Tags. Its even better if you can use both. Something like this

logo_103.png Military Orders
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  orden_impetuosa.png3
logo_9.pngMAGISTER KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 32)
logo_9.pngMAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
logo_9.pngMAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
logo_4.pngKNIGHT HOSPITALLER Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 37)
logo_4.pngKNIGHT HOSPITALLER HMG / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 41)
logo_11.pngSERAPH Spitfire, Nanopulser + AUXBOT_1 / EXP CCW. (2 | 82)
 sep.giflogo_11.pngAUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (- | 4)
logo_1.pngFUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_21.pngMACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
logo_12.pngPATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
logo_12.pngPATHFINDER DRONBOT Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
logo_18.pngPALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_irregular.png1  
logo_27.pngWARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I Never worry too much about orders, normally because I am running MO and so have a knight link. 

It all depends on how you use the list and also how effective the opponent is. Or if the tactics you are using are new to the opponent. this is a big one I think. At a 400pts Tournament at the weekend I used Tohaa Kerail percepters to alpha strike in most of my games. the meta was not expecting this especially as the missions were the Armoury and Frontline, both suited for going second for last turn claiming. However, by using most of my orders on these units i was able to neutralise the enemy. Now, against an opponent that was expecting them to do this they would have been wiped out quickly. 

It can be done as well with a heavy link or a TAG. Just make sure that they do not take out weaker members of the link or stop you from advancing. Isolation is a big one as is IMM/adhesive. 

 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This tactica doesn't have to be limited to PanO.  I've experimented with a couple JSA lists that are either 400pts all HI or 300pts TAG+5xHI+mooks.  Both can be pretty brutal, and the all HI list is actually pretty good in ITS due to 5 specialists (3x Karakuri and 2x Shikami)!

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Section 9 said:

TAG+5xHI+mooks

That's just nasty!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Section 9 said:

This tactica doesn't have to be limited to PanO.  I've experimented with a couple JSA lists that are either 400pts all HI or 300pts TAG+5xHI+mooks.  Both can be pretty brutal, and the all HI list is actually pretty good in ITS due to 5 specialists (3x Karakuri and 2x Shikami)!

Its more that Daboarder pretty much only plays PanO and Caledonia (where he favours the "horde of hairy, screaming, probably drunk Scotsman" list archetype). I do agree that if there were some other contributors to talk about the other factions, it'd probably be better suited to the Access Guide rather than any one faction forum, but I can understand why he did it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been a while since a thread matched up to the reality of my games.

I believe that ITS 2016 and HSN3 have shifted the game to making smalls lists just as viable. Not "you could win anyways" but actually not at a disadvantage. The forum meta just hasn't caught up.

Hopefully we can stick to discussing how to make and play these lists, and advantages/disadvantages, instead of arguing over the concept.

I play pretty heavy Nomad and ALEPH, I'll start thinking about applying my experiences here.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oddly enough, several of the Interplanetary players from the UK just submitted ten-Order lists. :) 

To back up your excellent point about unequal attrition, I used the Xeodron/Xeodron/Samaritan Haris on Sunday, backed up by a Unidron Core with heavy weapons. The game ended with one Xeodron Dead via Coup de Grâce and the other Possessed (after being repaired from Unconscious), but they were the only casualties, putting me on eight troopers alive compared to a Shang Ji Hacker and three LI

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good topic, I'll try to follow your suggestion to my next games.
I usually play MO - started playing them in N2 - so I feel this topic very interesting in its future developments.
But, right now, based on the experience in my meta, I have to completely disagree.

= tl;dr
HI and TAGs are weaker than little units, which are more convenient. Big units are scary because of their stats, so they have a lot of weaknesses to "balance" them.
I really am open to all kind of suggestions, because maybe I am doing something wrong. Not looking for flame or something like that, maybe only a little sarcasm somewhere.


= Number of orders
I slightly disagree in the number of the orders problem, as I saw that the games change a little with a 14 or a 10 orders list; not completely, but a little.
If you have more orders you can do more and make more mistakes. On the other hand we cannot make mistakes or have bad dice. I saw this a lot of times in most of my games: one bad roll, and your key unit it's just gone, and your game shifts incredibly near to defeat.
This won't happen if you play a lot of littler, cheaper units. Ariadna often teaches me this.

I often find myself in the third turn with 5/6 orders, and sometimes there is not much that I can do with that.

= Durability, costs and skills
What I have observed in my latest games is that HI and TAG are not as durable as they seem to be.
I mean, when you read the stats you feel like the opponent must struggle to deal with them, but when you play them... it's completely the opposite. They have a lot of weak spots. The problem lies in the fact that stats are scarier than skills. If you read BS 14 and ARM 4, it looks like a tank compared to a BS 12 ARM 2, but it's not. On the other hand Forward Deployment, Advanced Hacking, Camo (...) seems just an addiction, but they are very powerful, and do not cost so much.

Too often I read this in the forum, that PanO has this +1BS perk. Believe me, it does nothing in the modern Infinity, with a lot of skills and gears.
Too often I read that we must field an hacker and give Fairy Dust, and I think "why I have to pay this order tax that the other faction can simply ignore? This is not fair."
As I sayed before, big units are scaried than little ones. So, the balancing is done by giving to little units a lot of skills.
And in this game skills are everything, more than stats. I'll repeat this forever, since someone will finally notice.
Much better to have a jumping dog immune to everything (someone please explain me this, I don't get it. why meat should be immune to explosions?), that a TAG.

My CA opponent can just get rid of them fielding his immense Umbra Hacker, that can easely stop anything with ease. Just put it in the centre, cybermask him and the field is done, 40cm diameter of "no, you just can't go there". The centre of the table is controlled with no real strategy.

My Ariadna opponent just field a lot of heavy weaponry at ridicoulous cost - both points but also non-sense-low SWC - and both in ARO and in main phase he can cast so many dice that he can destroy everything. Want to go closer? No problem, he is also full of template weapons.

My Aleph opponent just have his greek heroes, who are TAG in miniature. And he can link them with cheap but effective units. We can't link TAGs, of course.

My YuJing opponent is the one that I feel the most similar to me. But his units are more effective, and have twice the tools that PanO (the most powerful human faction in the fluff) can offer. He is not OP but just... more flexible.

= Crits
My friend who plays Ariadna one day sayed to me "I play on the crits, because I can shoot so many hits, that I can tear apart everything". You know what? He was correct. He has an admirable crits streak, in my company.
No matter what is opposed to his units. A Santiago in full cover vs a 11 pts nameless guy? Crit crit. Dead. Wow. -> Really happened. And no, not rarely.

Would change this crit rule, like giving +6/+9 to damage, resolve this? I don't know, but I would try something.

= Points lost
If you lose a big unit, like HI or a TAG, you suddenly give to your opponent a lot of points. And he can do that very efficiently, with very few orders.
On the other hand you, to balance the number of points lost, you have to use a lot of orders in order to kill a lot of cheap units. Orders that you don't have to make everything - because the game fortunately is not only on killing. To make the same amount of damage to your opponent's roster, you have to expend twice of triple the number of orders.

Also, you go from 10 to 9 orders? A dent to your game.
You go from to 15 to 13? Just swap someone in the other group, and fixed.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, smaller lists tend to have more life turn 3 for me. Part of it is losing less guys per turn, but another part is, as mentioned, losing something strong isn't as big of a blow, since your next guy is also strong.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, HurrJackal said:

You go from to 15 to 13? Just swap someone in the other group, and fixed.

Plus a skill "Free agent" which is again a thing PanO is missing totally....

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to agree with this thread, but I just don't feel that elite lists are more resistant to attrition for the main reason that they will lose a lot of models to an alpha strike. Turn one, before you can set up suppression fire, and lacking chain chaff to guard your flanks, an AD dude can come in and kill 50pt HI almost as easily as 10pt Fusiliers from a flank. Or a Speculo Killer slicing one of your TAGs with its first order.

The whole reason I started running spam in the first place was because it was enormously more resiliant against this type of strategy.

So I'm wondering, what answer does an Iron Fist pack against this type of strategy?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, what_is_tactics? said:

I want to agree with this thread, but I just don't feel that elite lists are more resistant to attrition for the main reason that they will lose a lot of models to an alpha strike. Turn one, before you can set up suppression fire, and lacking chain chaff to guard your flanks, an AD dude can come in and kill 50pt HI almost as easily as 10pt Fusiliers from a flank. Or a Speculo Killer slicing one of your TAGs with its first order.

The whole reason I started running spam in the first place was because it was enormously more resiliant against this type of strategy.

So I'm wondering, what answer does an Iron Fist pack against this type of strategy?

Or a pair of big dog things / Duroc running at run (Total immunity really does suck)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is where tactics and possible planning can work in your favour. Against frontal assaults you should be in total cover, protecting your flanks. A link team with 5 models will almost certainly be there in the main. the B2 ARO with +3 bs against a normal guy that is outflanking should win the majority of the time. 

In the active turn you got for the models that can be taken out easily, go for the line troops to cripple the orders of the specialists. Kill the specialists as they are what score objectives. Rambo the TAG is need by as use it as an expensive but expendable unit. 

it would be interesting to hear other peoples opinions but I have found these sort of lists are very effective. I have generally come in the top half of the table in tournament settings even coming second a couple of times. so it can be done

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, what_is_tactics? said:

Turn one, before you can set up suppression fire, and lacking chain chaff to guard your flanks, an AD dude can come in and kill 50pt HI almost as easily as 10pt Fusiliers from a flank.

That's not my experience, and the maths agrees. If you can catch the HI or Fusilier out of cover then the HI is still around three times harder to kill. If you can't catch them out of cover then a DA round in ARO puts BS15 HI versus a BS12 Combi attacker on roughly even odds of inflicting 1+ Wounds, which is obviously going to hurt the AD trooper more than it does the HI.

If you look at Deathbird's list, the HI are in a full Fireteam: Core, generally putting the AD trooper at a disadvantage even in their active turn.

 

10 minutes ago, what_is_tactics? said:

Or a Speculo Killer slicing one of your TAGs with its first order.

There's a reason why ITS gives you two lists, and outside ITS the default is that you write your list after seeing the table, opponent's faction choice and draw your classifieds - against Shasvastii and vanilla Combined you wouldn't choose to take TAGs.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, deathbird said:

 

I think this is where tactics and possible planning can work in your favour. Against frontal assaults you should be in total cover, protecting your flanks. A link team with 5 models will almost certainly be there in the main. the B2 ARO with +3 bs against a normal guy that is outflanking should win the majority of the time

 

The dice calculator disagrees with you... an akali vs a fusilier is 31% to 25% in favour of the akali... and that's the nice matchup... The not nice one is tiger soldier or garuda... or if they deny you cover (or if it's duroc)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure Deathbird is talking about the HI link, not the Fusilier link.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm really happy reading this stuff. Although I have my concerns I will for sure try this approach and verify it in real life hostile environment :)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

I'm pretty sure Deathbird is talking about the HI link, not the Fusilier link.

Ah... yeah, that might swing it with DA ammo and +2-3 BS :)

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Daboarder said:

My advice is based on my own experiences running dual tags, HI spam and a CHA army that regularly tops out 26 or so orders. I know spam and i know HI. I play consistently with an extremely good set of players and they know their stuff as well and this style of list works, works well and is not meta dependent.

Would it be possible for you at some point to post a battle reports of your implementations of such a lists ? It may show a lot of stuff and clarify some concerns/wonderns/open points :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now