Daboarder

A primer on massed armour operations

311 posts in this topic

On 8/15/2016 at 9:42 AM, Alister said:

@Daboarder

Idk why I can't remove your link from mobile, it is really annoying because I always have this problem :(

For those interested about my game yesterday as a first time orc haris user.

I had to play really defensively and slow. It sucked not having something reliable to take out that Rodoks, I really missed my Aquilla. Other stuff happened and the game ended up to PanO on a score of 7-2. 

Wish my Orc Haris did more, they were pinned down pretty hard, clearly they were not capable of taking on a 5-Man Core of Rodoks in cover, with HMG and Shotguns, lol.

*lol super late responce

Anyway, look at it the other way. Your Orc haris tried up a Rodok link that had to be used to pin your Orcs down. And that Boarding Shotgun Orc still got work done. Orcs aren't going to be able to handle everything. Part of their role is being annoying speed bumps that slow your opponent down. The Orc haris costs too much to work with a TAG, just going dual Tag is likely most cost effective. However, the Orc haris works really well as the anvil for say a SAA army. You then have the spare points to load up on support, like Naga KHD, Bagh-mari link, REMs, etc.

Bagh-Mari are a great hammer, an active turn attacker. However, they are fragile with only 1 wound. They need something more sturdy to be the anvil to slow down an enemy advance. Thats where the Orc Haris comes in. 

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To be fair, I think that something like this:

logo_104.png The Most Vanilla NCA
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_25.pngORC (Fireteam: Haris) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 36)
logo_25.pngORC Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 42)
logo_25.pngORC HMG / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
logo_7.pngSQUALO (Armored Cav.) MULTI HMG, Heavy Grenade Launcher / AP Heavy Pistol. (2.5 | 95)
 sep.giflogo_7.pngCRABBOT Flash Pulse / Knife. ()
logo_2.pngFUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
logo_2.pngFUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_2.pngFUSILIER Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_2.pngFUSILIER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_2.pngFUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_20.pngMACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
logo_17.pngPALBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_irregular.png1  
logo_23.pngWARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Might actually work for some missions.

At the very least, it's pretty hilarious. 

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that is the vanilla ice cream with no sauce or sprinkles list


also petition to rename Dab to Dabs2Tags in honour of this thread

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On 2017. 07. 30. at 10:36 PM, Death said:

*lol super late responce

Anyway, look at it the other way. Your Orc haris tried up a Rodok link that had to be used to pin your Orcs down. And that Boarding Shotgun Orc still got work done. Orcs aren't going to be able to handle everything. Part of their role is being annoying speed bumps that slow your opponent down. The Orc haris costs too much to work with a TAG, just going dual Tag is likely most cost effective. However, the Orc haris works really well as the anvil for say a SAA army. You then have the spare points to load up on support, like Naga KHD, Bagh-mari link, REMs, etc.

Bagh-Mari are a great hammer, an active turn attacker. However, they are fragile with only 1 wound. They need something more sturdy to be the anvil to slow down an enemy advance. Thats where the Orc Haris comes in. 

I know this anvil/hammer thingy is something totally basic, but what exactly are they?

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On 14/09/2017 at 8:17 AM, Zsolt said:

I know this anvil/hammer thingy is something totally basic, but what exactly are they?

Theres a wiki page on it but I think in broad infinity turns it comes down to the Anvil is the hard thing you want your opponent to attack and struggle against whilst you manoeuvre your hammer into position to strike them.

The wiki example is your anvil is your line of troops that your opponent troop line runs into whereas the hammer is the cavalry that runs behind them and pincers them against friendly troops.

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Yeah, that's a good assessment.  In Infinity terms, I think Hammer + Anvil is inducing your opponent to extend to attack your troops or grab an objective, maximizing the amount of orders they spend to do so, while minimizing the amount of Orders you lose in the process.  This leaves your opponent with units that are positioned in a vulnerable way, letting you counter attack and remove pieces with high probability order efficiency.

PanO is very good at this.  Since we lack most the utility of other factions, piece removal is basically our cornerstone.  TO Camo, link teams, Sapper Snipers can force enemy order expenditure (either they maneuver for multiple Orders to hit your visible piece, or they walk somewhere without knowing the TO Camo unit is waiting to ARO them.)  The enemy then either loses their unit, or spends more Orders than they want trying to remove your unit.  The idea is you've soaked a good portion of their Order pool, and they've gained very little for it.

Infinity Anvils are therefore kind of deceptive, because they're rarely "tough" units in terms of just straight Armor.  Sometimes they're as simple as a Chasseur minelayer, or a Mutt and its Jammer placed in an important chokepoint.  

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15 minutes ago, Barakiel said:

Yeah, that's a good assessment.  In Infinity terms, I think Hammer + Anvil is inducing your opponent to extend to attack your troops or grab an objective, maximizing the amount of orders they spend to do so, while minimizing the amount of Orders you lose in the process.  This leaves your opponent with units that are positioned in a vulnerable way, letting you counter attack and remove pieces with high probability order efficiency.

PanO is very good at this.  Since we lack most the utility of other factions, piece removal is basically our cornerstone.  TO Camo, link teams, Sapper Snipers can force enemy order expenditure (either they maneuver for multiple Orders to hit your visible piece, or they walk somewhere without knowing the TO Camo unit is waiting to ARO them.)  The enemy then either loses their unit, or spends more Orders than they want trying to remove your unit.  The idea is you've soaked a good portion of their Order pool, and they've gained very little for it.

Infinity Anvils are therefore kind of deceptive, because they're rarely "tough" units in terms of just straight Armor.  Sometimes they're as simple as a Chasseur minelayer, or a Mutt and its Jammer placed in an important chokepoint.  

So it's not that they're hard to remove, but that they have a high potential threat, or that their threat is in a place of high value? This is an approach I'm not very practiced in, but have been thinking about more while I've been playing NCA.

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Nomad example: Gecko Duo + Intruder HMG + Hellcat.

You push the Geckos into your opponents face watching the objectives on Suppression Fire. You have 6 STR they need to chew through to get to the objectives meaning that they'll probably struggle to find time to a) do objectives B) set up for your turn and c) deal with your attack units. This enables the 'flashing sword of vengeance' in counterattack.

Basically it's about forcing your opponent to spend his strength against your strength and then crushing him against it. In traditional usage the emphasis is on pinning your opponent between your Hammer (the moving element) and your Anvil (the static element) where his forces are smashed.

PanO example: Swiss Guard ML + Swiss Guard HMG. This tends to be the classic Infinity construction: a clear ARO units/units paired with a clear attacking unit/s.

Part of what Barakiel describes is more aptly 'defence in depth' where you preserve your strength for the counterattack by presenting weakness to your opponent's strength but in a very deliberate manner. The aim is a wearing down battle whilst your opponent overextends thereby enabling the counterattack. However, Sapper snipers and that ilk tend to have the opposite effect of pinning your opponent down - rather than inducing them to overextend - and tend to be more of an Anvil.

Nomad example again: 2 x Zero Minelayers + 2 x Morans with all your troops deployed in total cover with nothing with LOF much beyond the midline. It's not a strong reactive turn, but it costs your opponent lots of orders to get at your strength, and doing so will probably leave them overextended.

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1 hour ago, Terrordactyl said:

So it's not that they're hard to remove, but that they have a high potential threat, or that their threat is in a place of high value? This is an approach I'm not very practiced in, but have been thinking about more while I've been playing NCA.

Usually they are indeed hard to remove, but more from factors like positioning (hiding behind a wall using hacking or jammer, or behind a corner with a direct template weapon) where they're hard to hurt and force you to engage in their terms. Camo or TO Camo models at long range also qualify, stacking big negative modifiers. NCA would use TO sniper/missile, linked Fusiliers, drop bears, or auxbots.

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6 hours ago, Terrordactyl said:

So it's not that they're hard to remove, but that they have a high potential threat, or that their threat is in a place of high value? This is an approach I'm not very practiced in, but have been thinking about more while I've been playing NCA.

NCA can do it very well; linked Fusilier snipers/MLs, Swiss ML, Hexa sniper, multiple Auxbots, Bulleteers in Suppressive Fire, Sierra of course - they all make it hard for enemy to advance fast, forcing them to use multiple orders to deal with a threat.

Anvils are usually hard to remove, but not necessarily because of their durability. Range bands and various modifiers come into effect here, forcing enemy to deal with the threat while on a back foot, or to maneuver other, more capable units into position. Take Bulleteer for example - it's rather fragile, but can soak up multiple orders unless enemy has a template, grenade launcher, smoke or MSV in position to intervene. So the thing to do is to plan for it and position your troops in a way that forces him to fight on your terms.

One nasty trick when using anvil tactics is to stack the threats - you place an obvious anvil in a good spot, and hidden TO unit directly above or below it, so they see the same spots, but can't be hit by a single template (it depends on terrain, but shouldn't be that hard to pull off). When enemy moves into position to fire you take AROs with both units, forcing him to split fire or allow you an unopposed shot. Even if he deals with your units it should cost him enough orders so he can't go for objectives or set up a proper defense... and in the next turn he should be hit with a hammer. Like Garuda for example.

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As an example the last game I had I put a nisse on suppression fire in the mid field but had a order specseargent sniper in hidden deployment ready to weigh in when the opponents tag weighed in. It was brutal. It allowed me my whole second turn to run and score two antenna with a fo auxilia, which seemed more important than striking with a hammer (Joan) in that game.

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