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Orpheus80

Help me understand some link teams

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Hi

So I decided to branch into yu jing. I bought hac tao and terracotta with HMG, purely because I like models.

Well, since I am interested both in vanilla, because some models seem just fun to play with -> like omniwban/shinobu/hac tao/shikami...

But also whole imperial service seems like really fun sectorial. So I am probably gona branch a bit, into both sectorial, but also in vanilla, since I like models/profiles from it.

When looking at imperial service,no brainer link teams are -> kuang shi link team for cheap orders or more expensive(150-160pts) wu ming link for really durable and killy link with specialists, that is good at almost any range.

Links that I really dont get, are:

Hsien, awesome new model, which I plan to get, I can link him with 2 imperial agents. Why do that? Pay almost double his cost for just an extra shot. Okay, you can get specialist in this link, but do you really want to go mid field with hmg?

Crane with celestial? Crane is also awesome model, I am not really sure about profile, kinda so-so. If I wanna go for shooting, why not just take hsien or su-jian? Linked with that new spec-ops number 2 guy, and 3 celestial guard, you have link of around 113+ pts. Link is okay, not too expensive, but also quite vunerable. Because those celestials will go down really easy.So you wanna go in close with them, butthen you will probably die when enemy gets his turn.

Imperial agent harris with bao. CLose to 100pts. For MSV l2, why just not go with hsien/lu duan?

Imperial agent + core bao. Seems you can get better link team options than this one. (+ not to delighted with bao models)

Zhanyng with wu ming - I can see some benefits of this, although he is a bit softer than wu ming, but leave him protected on the back of the link, and he should be fine. EIther mad traps/ML/sensor/hacker option all have their use.

Okay, I can see apeal in frendly games, where you don't wanna take most effective stuff, but you will use weaker stuff, not to anahilate your friend.

 

I love how new IS starter looks, but I am not sure would I use half of models from it. Actually even in vanilla, I don't see too much use of celestial/zahnshi, since they will mostly be cheerleaders, so why not just use keisotsu? You spare 2-4pts on each. Lower stats don't mean anything when your job is to sit tight and let big boys with shiny toys do their job. Except, keisotsu have older models that are out of scale, so I don't wanna buy them.

Also, ninja. Very cool new model, but when used in vanilla(combi rifle version), why just not pay a bit more and get shinobu or omniwban? I wouldn't really count on bow to kill stuff if I wanna have cheap ninja.

 

 

 

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While it is true the Hsien/Zhàn Yīng haris team can get expensive, they do have the following benefits:

- +1 Burst through easily accessible smokes (assuming the core CG+KS team is close by), which should not be underestimated

- Access to Sensor to make sure those tokens get discovered ASAP (even better if sniffers are deployed first)

- Nimbus grenades as an option when taking on full enemy fireteams (denying them their extra B while the Hsien retains original B, at the cost of -3 BS, which the target should suffer from as well I think?)

- Madtraps is an option for the other Zhàn Yīng wingman to protect against close in attackers?

And generally that team or a (Supportwared) Ruì Shī are better for active MSV2 usage compared to the Bào.

---

Even in vanilla lists, you 'could' easily use all 3 Celestial Guards models after all, especially as a KSCD (for Kuang Shi orders) or a hacker (supportware), and even for a Guǐ Fēng SpecOps using a CG base (assuming they are accepted for use). Nothing much to say about the Zhàn Shì or random ninja though.

 

 

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I've been playing a list lately that works surprisingly well as a defensive module. Crane with Spitfire in a link with 4 CG, and a Haris of the Hsien HMG  with two Zhanying, One with the ML and one with Breaker Combi / Sensor.  The rest of the list can vary depending on the scenario, either load in a few more CG as specialists or add in a few Bao.  Let your specialists grab objectives while the two link teams sit pretty in overwatch positions and annihilate any enemy troops that venture into LoF (I keep the CG in the link hidden behind terrain so the Crane does all the dirty work). The Zhanying has been especially effective with B2 Missile Launcher in ARO

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Crane Spitfire: 2 SWC
Hsien HMG: 2 SWC
Zhanying Haris: 0,5 SWC
Zhanying ML: 1,5 SWC

You cannot field a hacker, apart from KHD, and the CG in the CoreFT are armed with Combi or BS/Flashpulse

This is the most viable i can extrapolate on this:

logo_202.png Imperial Service
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_5.pngIMPERIAL AGENT Lieutenant (X Visor) Spitfire, 2 Nanopulsers / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 54)
logo_1.pngCELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
logo_1.pngCELESTIAL GUARD (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
logo_1.pngCELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
logo_1.pngCELESTIAL GUARD Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
logo_7.pngHSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
logo_2.pngZHÀNYING (Fireteam: Haris, Sensor) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 27)
logo_2.pngZHÀNYING Missile Launcher, Nanopulser, Nimbus Grenades / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 28)
logo_9.pngNINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_13.pngSOPHOTECT Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png1  
logo_16.pngWÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)

6 SWC | 298 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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Welcome aboard imperial citizen!

Regarding fireteam, one should not forget they aren't only about buffing an offensive/defensive unit to the stratosphere, but also about order efficiency. Basically: move your offensive unit/specialist and his bodyguards together, bring different tool to the midfield, moving more dudes just to have more board control, and thus for less orders than if you moved them separately.

In the end i think it's about which one fit your playstyle, or counter what your opponent bring on the board, so i guess everyone has it's own opinion. Anyway i'll give you my feelings about those:

 

- Hsien + zhanying: +1 burst is nothing to scoff at, but i really think this team shines with a multi rifle Hsien. It makes for a really powerful anti-camo setup by moving both your sensor and a BS 14 B4 multi-rifle with MSV2, and you can also pack a nasty hacking threat if you give your Hsien the tinbot 2 to protect your zhanying hacker. Also, nimbus grenades are sometimes handy, and B2 breaker rifle with 6th sense lvl2 are annoying corner guards (can't get flanked out of LOS!)

 

- Crane + celestial: the crane is a great toolbox, and a really good killer with the 5-man bonus links, even the hacker profile. BS 16 spitfire or multi rifle are really scary, and it's good to have this guy cleaning the place while his little corner guards/specialists/smokers follow. Also, Forward obs and smoke launcher Celestials are quite good at winning face to face, which makes them really durable considering their price.

 

- Pheasant + Bao (haris and core): I won't say much about those because i can't seem to make them work, even though i desperately want to because i love them. The haris is really expensive SWC wise for what you got and works better as a back-up offensive team, whereas i feel the core is so expensive it requires a very specific meta (facing a lot of ODD/smoke/TO and such, like steel phalanx) and open boards (for your sniper) to really shine. Every time i tried them they were just shred to pieces by superior firepower, high burst weaponry or template weapons.

 

- Zhanying with Wu-ming: pretty much like Hsien + Zhanying. Zhanying packs a lot of tools which are handy when deployed in the midfield, you already listed them so i don't have much to add.

 

So, in my opinion, they're all powerful and flavourful, except maybe the Bao ones which i feel are more tricky to play.

Also, on this:

2 hours ago, Orpheus80 said:

Okay, I can see apeal in frendly games, where you don't wanna take most effective stuff, but you will use weaker stuff, not to anahilate your friend.

I love how new IS starter looks, but I am not sure would I use half of models from it. Actually even in vanilla, I don't see too much use of celestial/zahnshi, since they will mostly be cheerleaders, so why not just use keisotsu? You spare 2-4pts on each. Lower stats don't mean anything when your job is to sit tight and let big boys with shiny toys do their job. Except, keisotsu have older models that are out of scale, so I don't wanna buy them.

Also, ninja. Very cool new model, but when used in vanilla(combi rifle version), why just not pay a bit more and get shinobu or omniwban? I wouldn't really count on bow to kill stuff if I wanna have cheap ninja.

Okay some units are better than others, but most of the time they're all tools which can come in handy. For example: most will agree that a ruishi is a lot better than a combi-lsg Bao, but if you know you'll face a nomad with LOT of hacking and repeater everywhere, suddenly the bao makes for a better choice.

 

regarding keisotsu vs zhanshi vs CG, yea sure if you just want orders keisotsu are better. But sometimes you'll need a back-up specialist, or a hacker with decent wip, and it's when those WIP 13/14 instead of 12 makes them a bit better. But yeah there isn't much reason to use zhanshi until they have a sectorial where they are the only cheerleaders, or keisotsu ava is limited in vanilla (like CG).

On the ninja... let's just say a well placed assassin is sometimes all you need to win the game. And sometimes you don't want (nor need) it to be expensive, so you can get better stuff. I don't play the ninja much, but when i see how often i struggle to get 2 or 3 more points, a 6 points difference is nothing to scoff at, and even the cheapest one at 26 points can slice a lot of stuff in half.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Orpheus80 said:

Zhanyng with wu ming - I can see some benefits of this, although he is a bit softer than wu ming, but leave him protected on the back of the link, and he should be fine. EIther mad traps/ML/sensor/hacker option all have their use.

This is one I've been thinking about a lot.  There are so many great Wu Ming profiles.  I like the Sensor/Mad Trap Zhanying, but I don't know if it's worthwhile over the excellent Chain Rifle/SMG, or another Specialist.  I suppose I'll mix it up depending on the scenario being played.

It's nice to have options.

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16 hours ago, Sedral said:

Welcome aboard imperial citizen!

Regarding fireteam, one should not forget they aren't only about buffing an offensive/defensive unit to the stratosphere, but also about order efficiency. Basically: move your offensive unit/specialist and his bodyguards together, bring different tool to the midfield, moving more dudes just to have more board control, and thus for less orders than if you moved them separately.

In the end i think it's about which one fit your playstyle, or counter what your opponent bring on the board, so i guess everyone has it's own opinion. Anyway i'll give you my feelings about those:

 

- Hsien + zhanying: +1 burst is nothing to scoff at, but i really think this team shines with a multi rifle Hsien. It makes for a really powerful anti-camo setup by moving both your sensor and a BS 14 B4 multi-rifle with MSV2, and you can also pack a nasty hacking threat if you give your Hsien the tinbot 2 to protect your zhanying hacker. Also, nimbus grenades are sometimes handy, and B2 breaker rifle with 6th sense lvl2 are annoying corner guards (can't get flanked out of LOS!)

 

- Crane + celestial: the crane is a great toolbox, and a really good killer with the 5-man bonus links, even the hacker profile. BS 16 spitfire or multi rifle are really scary, and it's good to have this guy cleaning the place while his little corner guards/specialists/smokers follow. Also, Forward obs and smoke launcher Celestials are quite good at winning face to face, which makes them really durable considering their price.

 

- Pheasant + Bao (haris and core): I won't say much about those because i can't seem to make them work, even though i desperately want to because i love them. The haris is really expensive SWC wise for what you got and works better as a back-up offensive team, whereas i feel the core is so expensive it requires a very specific meta (facing a lot of ODD/smoke/TO and such, like steel phalanx) and open boards (for your sniper) to really shine. Every time i tried them they were just shred to pieces by superior firepower, high burst weaponry or template weapons.

 

- Zhanying with Wu-ming: pretty much like Hsien + Zhanying. Zhanying packs a lot of tools which are handy when deployed in the midfield, you already listed them so i don't have much to add.

 

So, in my opinion, they're all powerful and flavourful, except maybe the Bao ones which i feel are more tricky to play.

Also, on this:

Okay some units are better than others, but most of the time they're all tools which can come in handy. For example: most will agree that a ruishi is a lot better than a combi-lsg Bao, but if you know you'll face a nomad with LOT of hacking and repeater everywhere, suddenly the bao makes for a better choice.

 

regarding keisotsu vs zhanshi vs CG, yea sure if you just want orders keisotsu are better. But sometimes you'll need a back-up specialist, or a hacker with decent wip, and it's when those WIP 13/14 instead of 12 makes them a bit better. But yeah there isn't much reason to use zhanshi until they have a sectorial where they are the only cheerleaders, or keisotsu ava is limited in vanilla (like CG).

On the ninja... let's just say a well placed assassin is sometimes all you need to win the game. And sometimes you don't want (nor need) it to be expensive, so you can get better stuff. I don't play the ninja much, but when i see how often i struggle to get 2 or 3 more points, a 6 points difference is nothing to scoff at, and even the cheapest one at 26 points can slice a lot of stuff in half.

 

 

Don't you find multi rifle hsien to be kinda, low range? 4 shots at bs14, with DA ammo is nice, I am just worryed that range might be an issue. Potentionally I like this as harris option with main link team, although, at around 120pts for 3 models, of which 2 are quite soft, it's a lot!

Then again I made list with those 2 link teams that has 17 orders...could be fun to play. I don't plan to use it for competative games anyhow, for those there is ariadna XD

 

btw. kuang-shi, are they gonna get new models soon? They do show their age, and standing next to new models, they are not that prety. When your opint is to give order and die, at least you can be prety doing so :P

 

 

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Oddly enough the Hsien with a Multi Rifle is really good for.. well... SWC.

Kuang Shi has about twice as large Chain Rifles as the current model should have, otherwise they're fairly nice.

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@Orpheus80

The CG link with Crane is a no brainer once you get it on the table. Crane ranks are absolutely brilliant HI.

I'd have to disagree that the Rui Shi is better than the Bao combi+lsg. If you only look at part of the picture it might seem that way, but Bao have numerous advantages over the Rui Shi. I suspect that a lot of players don't put any practice into the Bao, and make their judgement before playing with them enough to notice how significant those advantages are. I suspect plenty of players have essentially never played a solo Bao.

 Individually and in link teams Bao are always excellent for me. Try using the Pheasant Red Fury with 2 Bao, neither of them with sniper rifles. You should start to notice how powerful at range the Bao Combi actually is, and the link ends up being very cheap in SWC.

The Zhanying + Wu Ming definitely has value, but it isn't an easy call over another Wu Ming. I've used it for the following: To get an HMG in the WM link when I only had 1 SWC left, To add a Hacker to a HI link that has Tinbot, To put sensor into a CQB HI link for making a joke out of your opponents camo.

I don't know if I can actually help you understand any of these links, but I can tell you that I use them all and I think they're all great even in competitive play. ISS plays from 10 orders to 20 very well, depending on link selections, so if you only play high order some options won't appeal to you. Some of the links might require a style of play that you don't use or practice at, and it's easy to confuse that with a link team being redundant or a poor choice. Usually I think it's caused by selectively ignoring features that you don't think you're interested in (like going prone, dodging decently, and being able to hide your base on a crowded table).

The consensus is almost always wrong when it comes to Infinity, so I recommend opening your mind as much as possible and trying crazy stuff every single game. You never know when you're going to turn your conception of the game on it's head. I promise every link team you've mentioned has real value and a real reason to pick them over the others.

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On 8/4/2016 at 4:40 AM, Orpheus80 said:

Don't you find multi rifle hsien to be kinda, low range? 4 shots at bs14, with DA ammo is nice, I am just worryed that range might be an issue. Potentionally I like this as harris option with main link team, although, at around 120pts for 3 models, of which 2 are quite soft, it's a lot!

I just want to add that a Hsien with Multi-Rifle isn't firing 4 shots with DA ammo. It'll be 4 shots with Shock or AP (also good under certain circumstances), but DA is the reactive ammunition type.

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Yea, noticed that. I come from ariadna, so all this mult technology is quite alien to me :P
But I am already looking up to some options that better tech unlocks :)

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On 04/08/2016 at 4:21 PM, StarTraveller said:

I'd have to disagree that the Rui Shi is better than the Bao combi+lsg. If you only look at part of the picture it might seem that way, but Bao have numerous advantages over the Rui Shi. I suspect that a lot of players don't put any practice into the Bao, and make their judgement before playing with them enough to notice how significant those advantages are. I suspect plenty of players have essentially never played a solo Bao.

 Individually and in link teams Bao are always excellent for me. Try using the Pheasant Red Fury with 2 Bao, neither of them with sniper rifles. You should start to notice how powerful at range the Bao Combi actually is, and the link ends up being very cheap in SWC.

This. Rui Shi are not better than Bao, just different with pros and cons. Bao can cautious move, go prone, are not hackable, have access to Bio Visors and X Visors, can fireteam etc etc etc. 

Rui Shi are good. Bao are good. It depends what you need and what you are looking for. Since Bao can fireteam and get extra burst, BS and SSL2 bonuses it makes them have a different dynamic to Rui Shi completely.

As far the fireteams go I've had good success with the Pheasant/Bao Haris, B4 shock Red Fury, B4 MSV2/X-Visor combi or B3 MSV2/X-Visor Light shotgun and B3 MSV2 Boarding shotgun / B2 Contender are pretty rude. The B2 contender in particular hits hard. The B3 Light shotgun out to 24" is awesome.

The 5 man Pheasant/Bao becomes even more gross especially since you can take different Pheasants and are not constrained to the Red Fury.

logo_202.png Midfield Control
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png5  
logo_4.pngIMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command, X Visor) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, MadTraps / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 36)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (X Visor, Multispectral Visor L2) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (X Visor, Multispectral Visor L2) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

0 SWC | 136 Points

Open in Infinity Army

logo_202.png Range Pain
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png5  
logo_4.pngIMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command) Red Fury / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (1 | 35)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (X Visor, Multispectral Visor L2) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (X Visor, Multispectral Visor L2) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)

2.5 SWC | 141 Points

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logo_202.png Room sweepers
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png5  
logo_4.pngIMPERIAL AGENT (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, DA CC Weapon. (0 | 29)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (X Visor, Multispectral Visor L2) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Multispectral Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_3.pngBÀO TROOP (Biometric Visor L2) Boarding Shotgun, Contender / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)

0 SWC | 124 Points

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The great thing is they are not an SWC heavy fireteam (unless you want them to be) leaving you lots of wiggle room elsewhere. They key is leveraging their range bands, visors and weaponary. It's can be very difficult to impose penalties on a Bao team.

EDIT: Woops I put 2 Pheasants in the range pain team earlier, corrected

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On 8/4/2016 at 8:21 AM, StarTraveller said:

@Orpheus80

 

The Zhanying + Wu Ming definitely has value, but it isn't an easy call over another Wu Ming. I've used it for the following: To get an HMG in the WM link when I only had 1 SWC left, To add a Hacker to a HI link that has Tinbot, To put sensor into a CQB HI link for making a joke out of your opponents camo.

Those are all good and I'll add one more: to have a "spare" link member when you lose a Wu Ming (or flub a doctor roll).

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I never liked Hsien HMG, so this link provides some Multi rifle love, and ifI chose him to be a lieutenant - a lot of free SWC. Zhanying are versatile, you can get a ML in the mix, and use him to crack armor. Or just another bodyguard for the Hsien. BTW, Hsien is a great hunter, so Multi rifle option is not bad at all. 

+ Tinbot option for a hacker.

WuMing can also opt for an ML addition, or another FO for less if they are midfield team.

+ Tinbot option for a hacker again. You will have the Tinbot profile anyway.

Crane's team is extremely efficient, you can get a Spitfire CG in the midfield and proceed to clear a lot of threats with B5 troop that you don't care much for and still keep your Crane safe, or just use it to deliver FOs and Hackers (I mean it's a team that can include only Specialists!).

I love Bao models, but never used them efficiently. IMO you can get a lot out of the Sniper profiles, but at a cost. If you use Haris, Core Kuang Shis and Hsien Multi Lt, you get enough SWC discount to afford this one, and it's nuts if your opponent can't deal with MSVs and relies on smoke.

I don't dig the Core Phaesant + Baos, too expensive and has no practical uses unless used for defense, freeing up orders. Although with Xvisors you get a lot of milleage from even a plain Combi rifle :)

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