Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Munin

Home-Brew Kazakh Sectorial List

18 posts in this topic

Hey there, Cossack lovers! Have you ever looked at all the cool toys and special stuff that the USAriadna, Caledonian, and Merovingian sectorials get while grumbling under your breath that "by god, the Cossack faction is dominant on this stupid planet! Where are MY toys?"

Well then I have just the thing for you. We're currently running an Infinity narrative campaign, which you can read about here:

http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/44721-a-new-dawn-narrative-campaign-and-batreps/

One of our players (who loves all things Russki) could not be forced to wait for Acheron Falls (or whatever the next book to contain new sectorials will be called) to be released. In order to appease his fiery Cossack spirit, I spent a lot of time combing over various army lists, figuring out how different sectorial armies handle things like AVA changes and Fireteam options, and reverse-engineering much of how Infinity works points-wise (check out the "Mathfinity" thread in the Human Sphere subforum to see deeper into the rabbit-hole that that led me down).

In any event, the final result of all of that work can be seen here:

www.hill10.com/infinity/ks/KazakSectorial.1.1.pdf

It's exactly what you might expect out of a Kazakh sectorial in terms of unit choices, basically all of the stuff that wasn't in the other lists (Antipodes, TankHunters, Veteran Kazaks, etc). Plus Yevgeniy Voronin, 'cause the dude just doesn't get enough love. And in order to give it a little more depth, I added three special characters (who give the Cossacks the same kind of variety that Mirage-5, Isobel MacGregor, Uxia MacNeill, Van Zant, William Wallace, and the Unknown Ranger bring to their respective sectorial lists).

The three characters are:

Kazak Teknik Tatyana Belinskaya - one of the first graduates of a new program the Kazak forces are undertaking to try to dabble (read "take baby steps") in defensive infowar - she fills much the same role as Isobel MacGregor, but isn't quite as much of a Swiss-army-knife. But she can link in with Kazak fireteams, which should make her an interesting addition.

Next comes Grigoriy Antonov, a Spetsnazs Sergeant. Built off the base Spetsnazs profile, he's a bad-ass. He's also the Kazak sectorial's only access to MSV1 - allowing him to fill some parts of Uxia and some parts of Isobel.

Finally, there's Pavel Stoichkov, TankHunter Ace. Ever wanted to see what a dude with a man-portable Autocannon and Marksmanship L2 can do? Now you can find out. Oh, and did I mention that we added a Fireteam: Haris profile to the TankHunters? A Haris-team of TankHunters will eat up most of your SWC, but TAGS and HI should be extremely cautious when tangling with the Rodina faction.

Anyway, please take a look and let us know what you think. Run them by the folks in your meta and give them a try. We'd love to get feedback from outside our own group, especially on the merits vs. costs of the various characters and Fireteam options. Enjoy!

 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You've definitely piqued my interest comrade!

Having spent well over three years of my life dedicated to Kazaks; studying them, analzying them, learning their strenghts and weaknesses, as well as writing a tactica and many articles about them, I'll take a look through and provide you with any feedback I have.

 

The Pride of Rodina definitely honors this project and is glad to see comrades taking the initiative! ;) 

 

EDIT

Okay, took me less time than I thought to look through the document (I was afraid I'd have to do a whole bunch of calculations, etc.). Here are my thoughts:

  • I'd imagine that Tankhunters will probably be AVA 4, in your list, but it's a minor critique and I highly doubt anyone will want that many at 400 points with the character anyway.
    • I doubt we'll ever see camo links, especially after the recent FAQ ruling out Shas camo links and Bruant being camo'ed in a link. Maybe create non-camo versions that are linkable? I don't think it's that big of a problem, but it'd be something to consider and play test.
    • I think I would drop the ML on Pavel. A B2, EXP, Shock template that entirely ignores cover, with BS13, surprise shot and camo seems a bit broken in my opinion. Maybe switch it to the AP HMG loadout instead of the ML to discourage "gaminess" like that?
  • I find the inclusion of the Renegade and Lamuet a bit strange since the only sectorial to have Renegades is Morats and no sectorial has access to Lamuet, unless you 
  • Grigoriy: it strikes me odd that he doesn't have a SWC cost for his sniper option. I'd expect at least SWC 1 or more (it's so dumb how the Spetsnaz sniper costs 1.5 SWC, but that's a different story). Also, he already gets V:Courage from MA2, so no need to list it twice ;) 
    • Other than that, he looks pretty solid! Looks like something CB would cook up and he's a pretty solid addition without being overpowerd.
  • Tatyana seems kind of boring to me. I'd like to see something added to her to make her more interesting or just drop the hacking device and give her something else to make her unique. She's essnetially an over-glorified and linkable Wardriver which makes her feel awkward.
    • She's reasonably cost, so I can't complain! E/mauler's a good choice.
  • Your link options are all exceptionally fair to me when compared to other choices, so I won't complain.
  • AVAs are all reasonable. I mentioned my critique on TH's, but I think the Veteran Kazak AVA should probably go down by 1, which pains me to say. The ability to link one with LKs and then form two duos would get pretty silly quick. Force the players to make a choice: two duos or one duo and a core.

All in all, I think this is a wonderful project and you folks have obviously put a whole lot of work into it! It's really quite wonderful, so thank you for this! Really, my two major critiques for balance are the AVA 5 Veterans and Pavel with his ML. Other than that, everything's just a bunch of minor gripes and I think that should help bring it to "CB standards".

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like some of the ideas, but certainly not all. I think the availabilities are all fine. 

I agree with Pride of Rodina that Tank Hunters should not be able to form links. I would also drop Muet and the Krakot. Kazaks don t need them and I feel it is best to be close to what CB does. I fear the Irmandhos should go the same way, they are an advantage that sticks with Vanilla. 

I like Pavel and Tatyana. I don t understand why Grigory does not have a SWC cost. 

My idea about a Kazak sectorial is that there should be two more Spetsnaz parachutists: One with a molotok and grenades and one with Specialist Operative, Rifle and D-charges.

The veteran Kazaks should have a Haris option, if anyone. Maybe it is enough not to give anyone haris and the veterans get duo. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I can see Tankhunters form link teams, but it'll be more like the Scots Guards where there's the 1st Batallion and 2nd Battalion. Basically have one version with camo, and another without camo, but with the ability to link. Also, I agree on having a Haris link for Vet Kazaks, it does sound nice. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, prophetofDoom said:

I fear the Irmandhos should go the same way, they are an advantage that sticks with Vanilla. 

I'm pretty sure that Irmies are a solid choice in the Kazak sectorial now.

Couple of reasons why I say this (I really like bullet pointed lists, FYI ;) ):

  • We know CB doesn't just keep faction units as Vanilla only and it's clear they don't belong in the other sectorials
  • Now that we know the Kazak sectorial is the "Tartary Army Corp." it makes sense to include Irmies
    • Irmies operate as an aquatic unit shipping things across Dawn, the Kazaks own the ports, a good amount of which appear in Tartary (where a good amount of smuggling and black market privateering happens too I bet).
  • It's also noted in their fluff that Irmies work very closely with Kazak High Command Ghazis in Hassassins make much less sense than Irmies in Kazaks
  • Lastly, it would break the Pride of Rodina's heart if they were give to the French instead, so it obviously won't happen then!

I agree with your other points though. I think the Vet. Duos are just fine and probably don't need a Haris option. It'd be bonkers to have a Vet. Core and then a Vet. Haris. I do agree that I feel Vets would be the best option for a Haris and that it's pretty probable. Maybe drop the Core with Line Kazaks option and give them a Haris option for SWC and Duos for free?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Pride of Rodina said:

I'm pretty sure that Irmies are a solid choice in the Kazak sectorial now.

Couple of reasons why I say this (I really like bullet pointed lists, FYI ;) ):

  • We know CB doesn't just keep faction units as Vanilla only and it's clear they don't belong in the other sectorials
  • Now that we know the Kazak sectorial is the "Tartary Army Corp." it makes sense to include Irmies
    • Irmies operate as an aquatic unit shipping things across Dawn, the Kazaks own the ports, a good amount of which appear in Tartary (where a good amount of smuggling and black market privateering happens too I bet).

It's also noted in their fluff that Irmies work very closely with Kazak High Command Ghazis in Hassassins make much less sense than Irmies in Kazaks Lastly, it would break the Pride of Rodina's heart if they were give to the French instead, so it obviously won't happen then!

I agree with your other points though. I think the Vet. Duos are just fine and probably don't need a Haris option. It'd be bonkers to have a Vet. Core and then a Vet. Haris. I do agree that I feel Vets would be the best option for a Haris and that it's pretty probable. Maybe drop the Core with Line Kazaks option and give them a Haris option for SWC and Duos for free?

Ok, the Irmies can stick with the Kazaks, then. More power to us! Kazaks then have another cheap unit available.

If the Vets are AVA 5, you won t see two links of Vets anyway. So they could have haris, but maybe the sectorial is strong enough without it. You d need good playtesting to find out. 

 And again, there should be molotoks available in a Russian sectorial. 

Now that I think about it a bit more, 2 antipode team means that Kazaks don t really need a haris option. 

 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yikes, the reason Grigoriy doesn't have an SWC cost is because I forgot to add it! I'll get that fixed.

As for the AVA 5 on the Vet Kazaks, I modeled them after most of the HI AVAs across sectorials. Domaru, Haramaki, Janissaries, Asawira, Order Knights, Mobile Brigada - they all get a pretty significant bump in AVA (and usually Fireteam: Core) in their respective sectorials. I didn't see any reason why Veteran Kazaks should be any different. If a player wants to pay the points and roll heavy, then the opportunity should be there. Kazaks are generally more heavily armored than their rough equivalents in the other sectorials of Ariadna (with the possible exception of MRRF, which has good options here), and I kind of dig the idea of the steam-rolling Russian juggernaut.

I also thought the Caledonian thing of rolling one heavily-armored guy into a fireteam of Line Troops was interesting, and Veteran Kazaks have the MOV to keep up.

I was on the fence about the Irmandinhos, but it's one of the few accesses to smoke the sectorial would get. I didn't want to go adding smoke to another troop type.

@mr_nuts31 makes a good point about linkability for TankHunters. I want to see how the unit plays on the table, but it's certainly an option. I don't know if you noticed, but I bumped up the SWC costs for both of Pavel's profiles by +0.5 SWC from the base cost (in addition to the extra skill cost). So yeah, he's nasty with the +1 Burst offered by Haris, but you're paying at least half (and probably more) of your SWC budget in a 300 point game to make him that way. And I actually find the B2 ignores cover missile launcher profile to be less scary than the B5 ignores cover AP HMG idea. I originally gave him all three HW profiles, but backed it down to two because the AP HMG at B5 is just too good.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Munin said:

Yikes, the reason Grigoriy doesn't have an SWC cost is because I forgot to add it! I'll get that fixed.

As for the AVA 5 on the Vet Kazaks, I modeled them after most of the HI AVAs across sectorials. Domaru, Haramaki, Janissaries, Asawira, Order Knights, Mobile Brigada - they all get a pretty significant bump in AVA (and usually Fireteam: Core) in their respective sectorials. I didn't see any reason why Veteran Kazaks should be any different. If a player wants to pay the points and roll heavy, then the opportunity should be there. Kazaks are generally more heavily armored than their rough equivalents in the other sectorials of Ariadna (with the possible exception of MRRF, which has good options here), and I kind of dig the idea of the steam-rolling Russian juggernaut.

I also thought the Caledonian thing of rolling one heavily-armored guy into a fireteam of Line Troops was interesting, and Veteran Kazaks have the MOV to keep up.

I was on the fence about the Irmandinhos, but it's one of the few accesses to smoke the sectorial would get. I didn't want to go adding smoke to another troop type.

@mr_nuts31 makes a good point about linkability for TankHunters. I want to see how the unit plays on the table, but it's certainly an option. I don't know if you noticed, but I bumped up the SWC costs for both of Pavel's profiles by +0.5 SWC from the base cost (in addition to the extra skill cost). So yeah, he's nasty with the +1 Burst offered by Haris, but you're paying at least half (and probably more) of your SWC budget in a 300 point game to make him that way. And I actually find the B2 ignores cover missile launcher profile to be less scary than the B5 ignores cover AP HMG idea. I originally gave him all three HW profiles, but backed it down to two because the AP HMG at B5 is just too good.

I think the tank hunters would get too strong with haris.  I thought the +0.5 SWC for Pavel was due to the marksmanship. Which already makes sense without considering links. 

Playing Caledonia with the Higlander Grey and a link of cheap volunteers is fun, but I wonder whether it is not a bit over the top. Because the Line Kazaks are already very good the Veteran Kazak as a team member is probably not necessary. Leave that advantage to the Scots. 

I

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a note, CB is opposed to Autocannon links. And, let's be fair, with good reason. See Kurgat for an example of what they did there. I also feel like VKs will be linkable 1-of with Kazaks, same with Doktors, but that's just me spitballing at the moment more than anything. I approve of any attempt to codify the glorious Tartary military.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the +0.5 was to further balance the Marksmanship L2. But you'll notice that the TankHunter profile with the Fireteam:Haris special skill is also +1.0 SWC and does not carry the "big guns" (although Adhesive Launchers are pretty cool).

The example of the Kurgats is interesting, but man 1 SWC for an autocannon is cheap, especially on a guy who is effectively immune to morale effects.

Here's one of the issues with Fireteams - they are weakest in their active turn, because it only takes one shot against someone other than the Link Leader (a shot which is unopposed, I might add) to drop the Haris link to the point where it is no longer providing a bonus to Burst (which is I think the issue people are most concerned with). The Lasiq Viral Sniper is almost as nasty in terms of its effects, arguably has a better range band, and is on a model with an X-Visor anyway. Yet they're Fireteam: Core, have a higher overall AVA, aren't locked into taking a weaker (and SWC-eating) profile in order to get the benefits of a link, and must suffer 2 casualties before they lose their Burst bonus.

It might be crazy-powerful and need to be dialed back. But the sense I've always gotten about TankHunters is that they're kind of a glass (auto)cannon. See what I did there? And while the Haris link will make it more order-efficient for them to get the right weapon into the right place, it will also keep them close to each other, where they will exert less board control. I actually find two heavy weapons deployed on opposite flanks to be far scarier than two heavy weapons close together because it's harder to avoid giving up AROs to them (or worse getting caught in a crossfire situation). This is something that the Domaru and Domaru+Haramaki Fireteam: Core links suffer from - yes, it's a frightening amount of incredibly survivable combat power in one place - but it's only in one place.  

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just my few kopiejkas;)

As a whole, list is nice. It definitely has this Kazak-elite vibe.

Concerning link options: I think Veteran Kazaks will have this 1+Line Kazaks linkability. It was in one comic strip in 1st edition rulebook, where badass Veteran gets whole squad out of some bad situation. I don't think we can get camoed haris, but that was said by my predecessors in this topic.

Characters: I love Pavel and Gregorij (esp. since first one is my namesake :D) but I also think that Marksmanship lvl2 is huge on his weapons. Grigorij is nice, though expensive. But I love parachutist loadout - got all I want from my parachutist Specnaz and Rifle :)

I will test list in my local community and write back with some feedback.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Munin said:

 

 

It might be crazy-powerful and need to be dialed back. But the sense I've always gotten about TankHunters is that they're kind of a glass (auto)cannon. See what I did there? And while the Haris link will make it more order-efficient for them to get the right weapon into the right place, it will also keep them close to each other, where they will exert less board control. I actually find two heavy weapons deployed on opposite flanks to be far scarier than two heavy weapons close together because it's harder to avoid giving up AROs to them (or worse getting caught in a crossfire situation). This is something that the Domaru and Domaru+Haramaki Fireteam: Core links suffer from - yes, it's a frightening amount of incredibly survivable combat power in one place - but it's only in one place.  

I thought exactly about those point you mentioned before I made my post regarding the linked tankhunters. Of course, you are right, the gluegun TH and the fact the TH have to be close together limits the TH in a link somewhat. But the burst bonus on the Autocannon or missile launcher paired with the camo ability is a bit too strong, I believe. 

I find it strange that you of all people come up with these ideas, because you do not seem to be a friend of synergy effects without higher costs. Same goes for the vet kazak in the link team with line kazaks. I am sure you have already played against the grey HMG + volunteer combo and now how effective that is. 

In my experience (4 years of Ariadna) i don t really see the TH as too glassy. They have 3 ARM and camo to protect them, which works with a bit of luck and ifyou care to look after them. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, prophetofDoom said:

I thought exactly about those point you mentioned before I made my post regarding the linked tankhunters. Of course, you are right, the gluegun TH and the fact the TH have to be close together limits the TH in a link somewhat. But the burst bonus on the Autocannon or missile launcher paired with the camo ability is a bit too strong, I believe. 

I find it strange that you of all people come up with these ideas, because you do not seem to be a friend of synergy effects without higher costs. Same goes for the vet kazak in the link team with line kazaks. I am sure you have already played against the grey HMG + volunteer combo and now how effective that is. 

In my experience (4 years of Ariadna) i don t really see the TH as too glassy. They have 3 ARM and camo to protect them, which works with a bit of luck and ifyou care to look after them. 

I think what really makes it broken is a template that completely ignores cover, is EXP and shock. Each unit under that template will be taking three hits and each one of those hits will kill them right off if it's a 1W model. Shoot! I'd take that in every list I'd ever play and more! Imagine the carnage you'd wreak on 1W links with something like that. Wiggle around to find one model with a rifle, shoot, eliminate almost the entire team. There's a reason why Zhayedans only have MM2 on the Breaker rifle and sniper rifle loadouts and not on their ML and HMG ones.

 

 

My comment on AVA 5 Veterans was more about me being afraid to get my hopes up too high (5 Veteran Kazaks in one list would probably make me weep tears of vodka-infused joy) and the ability to do something like this:

logo_301.png Ariadna
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_8.pngVETERAN KAZAK (X Visor) T2 Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
logo_8.pngVETERAN KAZAK (Forward Observer) AP Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
logo_8.pngVETERAN KAZAK (X Visor) T2 Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
logo_8.pngVETERAN KAZAK (Forward Observer) AP Rifle, Light Flamethrower / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
logo_8.pngVETERAN KAZAK Lieutenant AP HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 47)
logo_1.pngLINE KAZAK (Forward Observer) Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_1.pngLINE KAZAK Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 16)
logo_1.pngLINE KAZAK Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 17)
logo_1.pngLINE KAZAK Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 17)
logo_17.pngKAZAK DOKTOR Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png2  orden_irregular.png1  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_14.pngIRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
logo_30.pngDOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_31.pngTRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)

4.5 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

That right there is a lean mean fighting machine. 2 Duos, a Core, and still enough specialists and whatever else to really make things hurt. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are currently no Duo options that even include specialists and if they do, they're extremely limited (except you Scots Guards, but you're a rare exception). That's why I doubt we'll see Duo on Veterans and why I think Haris would make more sense. If you're keen on keeping the Duo, then that's why I argue for a reduction in AVA of the Veterans to keep there from being 2 Duos and a Core.

Then again, I haven't playtested this, so I'm just spitting out armchair philosophies. Feel free to ignore me :) 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it would be best to keep things simple and just give core link to the vets. Remember that you could play two antipode teams. That should be enough teamwork. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, prophetofDoom said:

I think it would be best to keep things simple and just give core link to the vets. Remember that you could play two antipode teams. That should be enough teamwork. 

At the moment? I'd agree.

In the future? I want a Haris somewhere in the faction! I'm not picky on who gets it though ;) 

I will admit that I think one of the things I'm looking forward to the most when TAK's finally released is the ability to take multiple Assault Packs. That would be true love.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This discussion has brought up one interesting aspect of the Fireteam rules that I had missed - you can have multiple Fireteam:Duo links active at the same time. Hmmmm. Maybe the thing to do is add a Fireteam: Duo profile rather than broadly giving it to all Veteran Kazaks.

@prophetofDoom, My well-documented suspicions on the power of synergies was what led me to increase not only the points cost but the SWC cost of Pavel Stoichkov.

EDIT: I think we'll see him in actual play for the first time tonight, so we'll see how it goes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
52 minutes ago, Munin said:

This discussion has brought up one interesting aspect of the Fireteam rules that I had missed - you can have multiple Fireteam:Duo links active at the same time. Hmmmm. Maybe the thing to do is add a Fireteam: Duo profile rather than broadly giving it to all Veteran Kazaks.

@prophetofDoom, My well-documented suspicions on the power of synergies was what led me to increase not only the points cost but the SWC cost of Pavel Stoichkov.

EDIT: I think we'll see him in actual play for the first time tonight, so we'll see how it goes.

I think that's a good idea. It would definitely help from the Veteran spam I posted above.

Do let us know how it goes! I'm interested to see how Pavel plays out! I'm really interested in how the ML plays.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

D'oh, he took Grigoriy instead. Maybe we'll be able to get in a second game?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0