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Alkymedes

Pros and cons of CC from your point of view

180 posts in this topic

Hi guys !

So I'm having quite the debate with myself, and I thought that I would share with the class so here I am.

I'm planning my second faction (JSA) around aragotos because bikes (I swear this sentence is correct ;)). So I'm looking at CC, because Yu-jing, on the other hand I look at my friend's myrmidons and I wonder : what really makes a good CC unit ? The uber high CC value coupled with nice skills like MA/berserk etc or having a little lower but all the tools to get there easily like ODD/Smokes ?

On a side note there is the question of i-khol units, different CC weapons, mobility of the CC unit, dual wield, point cost. My experience with CC is the use of jaguars against hungries in my DZ or transductor zones going full electric pulse after being engaged, or being ripped to pieces by angry myrms...

And you guys, what is a good CC unit to you? What makes a faction a good CC faction? What's your experience with the use of CC ? I'm curious to see how other people outside my group thinks !

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Any dedicated CC unit will eat anything not optimized for CC for breakfast.

1. Good CC units have some kind of skill to get close without spending too many orders/eating bullets. Forward or much better hidden deployment.

2. There is no good CC faction because shooting is better 9/10 times.

3. Aside from highly specialised units with a combination of skills, stats and equipment CC isn't worth it.

tl;dr You're either a ninja/speculo/whatever or you just shoot things.

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For Jsa is a viable option...  My shinobu takes out Giovanna d'arco and a father Knight with one single stroke during last tournament... And I have a lot of similar story to tell... 

 

Mask

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27 minutes ago, Coffeefiend said:

tl;dr You're either a ninja/speculo/whatever or you just shoot things.

Even then you probably mostly just shoot things!

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A good CC unit has a 22+ CC stat and MA(preferably 3(+)), and never enters close combat with another CC unit.

With burst usually being low, then DA/EXP weapons are much preferred.

-

In general, I regard CC as more of a gimmick, and 9 out of 10 times, it will be preferable and less order intensive to just use a gun - mind you, I play Aleph, and so my CC units come with ODD and make great gunfighters.

The point where CC is less of a gimmick, is when you can get a cheap(-ish) cc unit in base contact with your opponents premier gunfighter/TAG, and thus force him to waste orders on getting slashed to bits. And with the nature of CC stats below 20, your unit doesn't even need to have a good CC skill in order to make your opponent consider whether the dice off is even worth it.

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I run Achilles a lot. I run Achilles into combat very rarely. As mentioned above, Shooting will almost always be better. The times I go into Combat is if I am fighting something that has a lot of bullet durability. In that case I pile as many people onto the target as possible to increase the CC efficiency. This game comes down to Burst number, followed by almost everything else.

An oniwaban is really the only unit I can think of who REALLY wants to be in CC.

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2 hours ago, Alkymedes said:

And you guys, what is a good CC unit to you?

You need to have enought negative modifiers/equipment to minimize the chances of the enemy hitting you (Camo, i-Kohl...) while giving yourself positive modifiers to take you over 20 (as much as possible). This way you have a high chance of critting and, even if don't, you are very likely to win the FtF roll.

When you are rolling only one dice, you have to make it count.

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more often than not, I have Achilles at Firefighting range (12"ish). It would be more order intensive to get him into CC, than to simply shoot things. But yes, if fighting heavy infantry incover, I would preffer CC. I am not saying there is never a reason not to get into CC, its just those reasons I have found to be niche cases.

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20 minutes ago, dlfleetw said:

527b4cb417d5a3465d59b2c9c874d04c.jpg

This is all you need...

I had one of those moments too, during Flamestrike:

- CC against the Gecko (-3 for MA3, -3 for Camo, -6 for Surprise Attack...).

- Boarding Shotgun against the REM.

- Boarding Shotgun against the Intruder.

https://postimg.org/image/9kbpuu9xt/

And now the Igao is even better.

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54 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Some of you might want to go and run stuff through Toadchild's calculator, because you're not using your troopers as efficiently as you could be. :( 

I did a bunch of calculations on this a while back actually!

Achilles is a beast in combat and chews up non-CC HI and TAGs effortlessly. 

 

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20 minutes ago, theGricks said:

more often than not, I have Achilles at Firefighting range (12"ish). It would be more order intensive to get him into CC, than to simply shoot things. But yes, if fighting heavy infantry incover, I would preffer CC. I am not saying there is never a reason not to get into CC, its just those reasons I have found to be niche cases.

If he's within a Short Move, he's almost guaranteed to be better in combat than shooting.

Even if the target is in the open, even if the target is Light Infantry, even if the target has no Mimetism/Camo/ODD.

Sorry for going on about it, but a lot of people don't realise just how exceptional he is in combat, and the same goes for many other CC troopers like Ninjas, Bandits, Igao and Samaritans.

The HI example is just a case where he's massively better instead of just 'better'. It's not just a higher chance of taking down the target, he's also less likely to be damaged himself due to the high chance of critting with CC25 and Burst 2.

Seriously, if you find he's close to a target that isn't itself a CC monster, give it a try, you're likely to be surprised.

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For a while, I have wondered about the odds of dropping an infiltration CC guy like Bran do Castro, starting prone in a rooftop, towards a high value enemy passing by below.

Looks like you can declare Jump+CC Attack, from up to 8in up (no falling damage), and be at very good odds of winning an exchange against for example an Aquila Guard shooting back as ARO. Dice calculator says that Bran has 67% chance of doing at least 1W, and the Aquila even with MULTI and in +3 range only a 9% chance of wounding Bran. Once engaged in CC, it's even worse for the PanO HI.

Odds are similar for a Bandit bursting out of cover and attacking. Looks like CC should be tried more, if you are 4 or 5 CC over the opponent you are better off charging them in the active turn.

Do you guys think this is viable?

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I think it depends more on how many orders you're spending getting into CC than anything else. As a situational tool it's a good one to have, but it's not a strategy to build around.

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CC is just one way to make an attack. I don't make a Combi rifle force, I don't make an HMG force. I make a force that has a mix of tools to engage my enemy effecivly.

That said anything with CC 20 or more and martial arts will very likely kill anything that doesn't. When I play steel I love it when my myrmidon mix it up in melee, but I don't go out of my way to do it. With ODD and cover you normally can shot your opponent to remove their troops in fewer orders then running out to kill them. But thats not always the case, in scenarios with objectives rooms or the like melee is a very potent tool. Just remember you have it.

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To sum up: If you're a CC monster with (pick as many as possible) superior movement, infiltration, (TO)Camo, superior armor, MA skills, high CC, a good CC weapon and preferably another dude to toss smoke for you. CC is sometimes, versus specific targets under specific conditions, better than simply shooting them.

In all other cases CC sucks and the stat is just a useless tax. Sogarat says hi. 

Rant over: A specialised tool for specific situations. Much like MSV or smoke. Some tools are vastly superior to others.

 

Edited by Coffeefiend
Too much hate
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Yes CC is a tool, and on a calculator yes it will often come up better if your a CC monster. The calculator does NOT provide for the cost effectiveness in regards to orders though. If I have to spend 2 orders to get 15% better chance in winning a fight, versus a 75% chance and one order, you have to think if it is worth it. To me, a 3/4th chance is enough to be happy not spending that order. You also have too look at the map. Can you get a line of fire on them with a gun and be a one vs one, or if you move up to CC will you provoke additional free shot ARO's? CC is a tool. Is it the right too at the time? That's situational and always will be. I have used it with great effect and I have used it poorly. I have had achilles charge down a LI, and took a free aro to the face that crit him from a sniper. I would have just as good odds (not as great as CC, but still nothing to scoff at) simply shooting the LI though and not taking the enemy shot in the face.

I have also had an agema and TR bot run into a CC beast with myrmidons as well just to add an extra Burst. Like everything in this game, use your tools properly and you will be rewarded.  

CC is situational.

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I really don't look at models as CC models as much as what role they are fulfilling. 

Shaolin are chain rifles with smoke and the option to tie up things. Morlocks are largely the same except with weapons more likely to cause a trade with something big.

Haramaki in fireteam are good at all ranges, unlike Wu Ming who can get punked at CC. Crane CC ability is just rounding out their excellent weapon coverage on top of stealth.

Shinobu is smoke plus the ability to eviscerate pretty much anything (high armor/wounds) as long as she gets the drop on them. Uberfall are kinda similar but trade in infiltration and TO for speed and low cost to make more favorable trades.

As far as what makes a good cc model, some combination of delivery mechanism (Smoke/eclipse, infiltration, CH, ODD, speed, durability, etc) and payoff in CC (high CC, CC skills, good CCW, high burst). Models like Achilles, Shinobu, and Uberfall tend to have either high marks in multiple categories and/or offer a good mix for the price.

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I agree. Infinity is a huge toolbox. Sometimes you feel it's worth it to leave a mine to harass an approach lane, sometimes what you leave there is a Hacker hiding to threaten incoming HIs, and sometimes it's a CC specialist that can tear it to pieces. As always, the delivery mechanism can or cannot work (but threat analysis is central here, as in taking any action in infinity).

When I listen a "con" to CC in "when approaching you might have to face several AROs", I think it's the same when you decide to stand up and shoot with a Camo Sniper... if you have to face several AROs for that one Sniper shot, you are doing it wrong or decided the trade-off was worth it. In comparison, most CC units have nice abilities to help them get there (camo, climbing plus, smoke). 

Approaching a template is not the best idea or target for a CC specialist IMHO. Those are better dealt with ranged weaponry. You don't fight fire with fire, you find something vulnerable and kill it stacking the odds. Is it more situational than, IDK, a shotgun or a MSR? I don't know, but being vulnerable to a CC specialists is something a few expensive pieces are and if it can be exploited...

So, a list of things to consider:

- CC 20+ and some extra skill like MA are a nice premium for infiltrating specialists or trops that can help deny an approach.

- Don't force a tradeoff, but if you lack a good 0-8 range weapon consider the odds of CCing.

- Troops with CC in the mid 10s have a difficult time hitting you and removing an Engaged state, which makes the lose LoF with anything on the board and cannot ARO anymore. Consider using a cheap CC troop to tangle an opponent and "shield" an specialist that needs to move through.

- Don't engage DTW if you can avoid it. 

- Remember that any MA level comes with Stealth. If you are also Camo/Holo/Supplanted, remember Surprise Attack for a -6 to the opponent when engaging.

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CC is a lot more fun with a domaru than with an aragoto.

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CC's primary use is for anything with a secondary or dedicated CC specialization to kick the everliving shit out of anyone who doesn't, in close combat, when shooting power is not at a major advantage.

Good luck trying to outshoot a Swiss Guard for example under most circumstances. But get a Daturazi to advance on him with smoke? Bye-bye swiss guard.

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