Muffin Man

Question for my fellow Tohaaians/tohaanites.

17 posts in this topic

So I've recently been playing a few of my many armies that aren't tohaa. To be honest it really makes me see how tohaa has so many good things. Our meta had our first tournament a few months ago and I ended up winning (in the process absolutely crushing everyone I played). I've played close to 50 games with my tohaa and have lost 2-3 times that I can recall. This is not me trying to toot my own horn by any means but it makes me wonder. I know tohaa get a lot of shit as being OP. Do you all feel the same? I've never played against them so I can't say, but I do feel like a good tohaa player is almost unstoppable. Let's discuss.

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In N2, I might have agreed about Tohaa being overpowered.  Many of Tohaa's and ALEPH's units had N3 pricing, but in an N2 context.  But flamethrowers were at their deadliest then.

In N3, no, I didn't think we were overpowered.  With amazing additions and updates to other factions, updated Hacking and stupendous Supportware, and the nerfs to G: Sync units and Fireteams, I think people's grudge against Tohaa was just that, a grudge.

But I have been saying since publication that HSN3 has made Tohaa overpowered.  The #1 reason is the softening of the Fire Vulnerability. Most armies contain at least 1 Flamethrowers or Rocket, and they were a reliable way to punish Symbiont spam.  Not anymore.  Literally the only Symbiont soldiers for whom Fire has any special effect now are Gorgos, Ectros, and Rasail.  #2 cause for me is that Triads break down to Duos.

Aside from fire, our traditional vulnerabilities are less relevant.  SWC is cheap.  Aforementioned link shenanigans.  Plentiful Chain of Command means Lieutenants hunting is moot.  More HMGs.  More anti-armor.  Everything is cheaper.  Etc.

Very simply, we are getting more than we pay for.  Compare a Khawarij to a Kotail, a Yaogat to a Gao-Rael, or a Zoauve Sapper to a Nikoul, if you do not believe me.  And Corvus Belli knows it.  They called us "Rotohaa" at Interplanetario.  That's a Spanish pun for "Broken Tohaa". :o

Tohaa players should demand the Fire Vulnerability return, or else be flipped to affect Symbionts at 1 Wound, instead of penalizing expensive Symbionts like Gorgos.

Reason #1 is sportsmanship.  We're playing an unfairly costed faction, and it would be a better experience for our opponents to have the weakness to exploit.  Extending that olive branch is also a good show of integrity.  And I'll put this next part in bold:

Reason #2 is in our own self-interest. Corvus Belli already knows something is broken in Tohaa.  So a fix is inevitable.

Let's do the old fire vulnerability, instead of the alternative:  everything gets nerfed or more expensive.

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I think I recall seeing in one of the interviews that some of the newer Tohaa units were based on the fact that the faction is very unpopular in ITS.  They might have been unpopular because of perceived uncompetitiveness, but they might have been unpopular for other reasons.  If it turns out to have been too much, then I'm sure they'll tone a few things down when the next book comes out in a couple of years.  (Don't expect an errata in the meanwhile unless something truly egregious surfaces).

I disagree with the premise that Tohaa is just straight up overpowered compared to other factions.  They have a lot of good stuff, but they don't have everything, and there are a lot of ridiculous shenanigans that all other armies can pull as well.  I should add the disclaimer, of course, that I haven't been able to play Tohaa since HSN3 dropped.  Previously, when I did play my Tohaa, I felt like I had a lot of options and abilities, but not that I was just always set to win every encounter.  Perhaps I'm just not as good of a player as you ( :-) ), but there are definitely things that I miss when I play Tohaa.

As for 2nd edition - the main problems Tohaa faced then were lack of options (since they only had the units present in Campaign: Paradiso), and lack of HMGs (which were undeniably the single best SWC weapon at the time).  Once N3 was released, a lot of the Tohaa composition and skill selections made a lot more sense.

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11 hours ago, Muffin Man said:

So I've recently been playing a few of my many armies that aren't tohaa. To be honest it really makes me see how tohaa has so many good things. Our meta had our first tournament a few months ago and I ended up winning (in the process absolutely crushing everyone I played). I've played close to 50 games with my tohaa and have lost 2-3 times that I can recall. This is not me trying to toot my own horn by any means but it makes me wonder. I know tohaa get a lot of shit as being OP. Do you all feel the same? I've never played against them so I can't say, but I do feel like a good tohaa player is almost unstoppable. Let's discuss.

I've never won any single Infinity game.

Like it is said : "it's not your list, it's you". Maybe the Tohaa ruleset suits you better than other armies.

Grats for tournament win anyway ;)

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Nah. As nice as tohaa are for resilience and order efficiency, they struggle for shoot outs compared to true sectorals with five man teams. We're vulnerable to TO, smoke n shoot etc and never get to the same high BS as other races. Our answer to most tags is makaul/igao, which you can defend against relatively simply. We've got a lot of decent units, but no "star player" units other races have (hac tao/aquila/intruder etc). Tohaa are very beatable, I think their versatility and lack of meta presence upends a lot of opponents and you always have the upper hand when your opponent doesn't know your force.

We've got a lot of solid stuff and a good player can make them shine. The only thing I find a bit cheesy is the symbiomate soaking damage. Does allow for some ridiculous stuff! 

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I play Tohaa and they are very powerfull now.

I suppose, they are unpopular because of their "bio-affinity" that seems strange in hacker-oriented game and because the only shown bio-affinity is a symbiosuit and a couple of beasts.

For me the main problem of the faction are really crappy releases - rare, few, blisters. There is no devercity in a faction - if CB gives us more alternatives - it would be better. Ectross is a good HI, but the only HI we've got. I don't mean we should get something better than ectross, but something other than it.Tohaa still lack a lot of units comparing to other factions - so a little diversity would be just fine.

 

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I still think the biggest advantage that Tohaa have is the fact that very few people seem to play them so when people finally do go up against them they don't know what they are facing. In my experience I tend to win (about 2 out of every 3 games) because the people I play against do not know what my little toy soldiers do. They think every sniper I have is a Viral sniper, they think every unit I field has Symbiont Armor (including Chaksa), and they think every Chaksa is linked to some Tohaa unit. On the other hand, I put in some research on the Armies my friends play so I can talk to them about their guys.

Do we have some powerful tricks? Yes. But I don't think we are as over powered as some think we are. I have faced many a fire fight where I just can't beat the 5 man link team that has decided to take me out, or the HI with the long ranged gun who manages to slice the pie just right to keep taking my guys out. I have had a number of crits take out my Symbiont Armor and rendering my Symbiomate and bomb useless, including one from an Orc Troop taking out Le Muet's armor with mate on a 2. I have had fire one shot my Armored units because they still had to roll to see if they were burning and failed that roll. All armies have something powerful. Tohaa just has a weird powerful compared to the other armies and it's hard for people who don't understand it to deal with it.

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Hey guys, I'd like to chip in as I used to be a Tohaa player. Tohaa aren't that powerful, they are just very easy to use. Compared to other armies, espicially Generic, there are a lot of options and ways to play. It takes more time to get adjusted to a playstyle that one can get lots of practice in and be good with.

For Tohaa, it is extremely basic. We really don't have any exotic profiles to play with and our tactics are pretty straightforward. Our methology of playing is usually similar through out all the lists I see on this forum.

We take Makauls for Smoke to protect ourselves from AROs, and we put a high Burst SWC weapon in a triad along with a specialist. We make around 3 of those Triads, and the SWC works out and some ARO deterrents sprinkled in. 

I don't even know how to correctly convey what I'm trying to say. Tohaa are just extremely easy to use compared to the other Armies. I rarely found myself debating which unit I should take instead of another because of 'X' reason, like I do in other armies. 

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3 hours ago, Alister said:

I used to be a Tohaa player

latest?cb=20160117225759

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6 hours ago, Alister said:

Hey guys, I'd like to chip in as I used to be a Tohaa player (bolded for emphasis). Tohaa aren't that powerful, they are just very easy to use. Compared to other armies, espicially Generic, there are a lot of options and ways to play. It takes more time to get adjusted to a playstyle that one can get lots of practice in and be good with.

For Tohaa, it is extremely basic. We really don't have any exotic profiles to play with and our tactics are pretty straightforward. Our methology of playing is usually similar through out all the lists I see on this forum.

We take Makauls for Smoke to protect ourselves from AROs, and we put a high Burst SWC weapon in a triad along with a specialist. We make around 3 of those Triads, and the SWC works out and some ARO deterrents sprinkled in. 

I don't even know how to correctly convey what I'm trying to say. Tohaa are just extremely easy to use compared to the other Armies. I rarely found myself debating which unit I should take instead of another because of 'X' reason, like I do in other armies. 

Dude...that was the harshest breakup letter I've ever read.....

 

To add my own opinions to this discussion (as someone who plays 8 different armies, including Tohaa), I don't think Tohaa are overpowerd, but I do think they're strong. They're in a very similar boat to Steel Phalanx: both break a lot of the core rules of the game to do things much differently than the other factions in the game. If you don't have enough experience against either, you'll be crushed...a lot. When I first started Infinity, one of my first opponents was a Tohaa player who constantly kicked my butt. Now I have very few problems with Tohaa. A lot of people don't get much practice in against Tohaa, so Tohaa curb-stomp them.

On top of this, Tohaa have some really powerful troops even when compared to the standard forces (Kerails, Rasails, Clipsos, Sukuels, etc.) which also helps them secure the perceived top dog position. Once the novelty wears off and people actually learn what each model does and how to adequatly counter Tohaa, they crumple up just like every other army, maybe even more so. Tohaa rely heavily on each other and once you start taking out the linchpins, the rest of the force will fall apart; it only takes one well placed kill to start crippling Tohaa.

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For me tohaa have the advantages of a generalist list (no particular weakness in army choice or lacks like in sectorial army) and they have advantage of a secrorial army with triad (well okay not 5man links but more than one ft) . Even before hsn3, before sukueul and upgrade of symbiomate and bombs they were strong. I must say that since hsn3 i look forward to start another army for testing a more difficult way to play 😀..

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14 hours ago, Alister said:

For Tohaa, it is extremely basic. We really don't have any exotic profiles to play with

Kotail? Symbiobombs? Taqeul? Kerail?

Also... no hacking, no remotes...

 

I would say that Tohaa is anything but "basic".

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4 hours ago, Abrilete said:

Kotail? Symbiobombs? Taqeul? Kerail?

Also... no hacking, no remotes...

 

I would say that Tohaa is anything but "basic".

It is why I stated that I have trouble conveying my message. I may have used some incorrect words. I also wrote that post when I had no sleep the night before, sorry! 

What @Aemaru said is sort of relevant to what I said as well.

Also, I stopped because Tohaa are hard to paint. Fuck all those straps man, they have some wierd fetish. @Dasaan please make a bondage artichoke comic.

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I find our main strength is the triads. It bumps the effectiveness of w good model up to 11 without spending the points you would in a sectorial. B2 reactive sniper? Two kamael and a gao- rael. Almost unimpeded movement up the table? Makaul smoke. We're a synergy faction and when you get a hold of that and understand the opponent, it's very easy to be higher than average.

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2 hours ago, Dasaan said:

Alright, you asked for it.

tntstandalonebdsmkosuil1.jpg?w=840

Nice

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Awesome, and 100% accurate XDDDD

Now we know the reason why all Tohaa units have regular training, and how we keep our Frenzy/Impetuous troopers in check while linked in Triads :P

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