FrozenMittens

Yu Jing/Infinity Advice

79 posts in this topic

Hello everyone! I'm a new player to the game and I am in need of some advice. I have flipped through the pinned articles at the front and they are very insightful but I was hoping for more general recommendations for list building and tips. Like do I always need to bring a sniper. Should every list have a paramedic just incase. If the enemy sniper has the high ground do I need to take them out at all costs. Things like that. I would greatly appreciate any advice you guys would give. Thanks. 

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I have 4 rules of thumb for list-building:

Orders.  I want at least 8 orders in my main combat group at the start of my 1st turn.  This means not more than 2 air-droppers or Hidden deployment models (or one of each).

Guns.  You win firefights by having a +3 to-hit when your opponent doesn't, so you want to have weapons with other than the basic Rifle range bands.  I usually start by taking a HMG, then look for a sniper rifle or ML.  I like to have a grenade launcher if I can, too.  Then you spend a couple SWC on Forward Observers and hackers.

Speed.  Orders are how you win the game, so spending fewer orders to get where you need to be is good.  This doesn't mean strict MOV stats, either.  AD troops, especially AD4, are "fast" because they can spend 2 orders to arrive on the table and do something.  Same for Infiltrators, Forward Deployment, and Mechanized Deployment.

Specialists.  You can't accomplish the mission if you don't have the specialists to do it.  I run lots of heavy infantry and TAGs, so I always take an engineer to fix IMM2.  I also had a horrible experience with GMLs back in the day, so I always take a hacker, too.  I usually take a doctor or paramedic, especially if I'm running a large force.  I also often take the Combirifle/FO REM, or another Forward Observer, because those are usually the cheapest specialists for ITS missions.

The "It's not your list..." banner in my sig links to a thread full of general list-building ideas.

Also, are you choosing your mission before you choose your army list?  You're supposed to!

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Section 9 has the basics pretty nailed down. 

Some extras to help build on his advice:

  • Generally put your big guns on those who can use it well. A Keisotsu HMG is relatively cheap, but not very good platform for them unless they are in a fireteam. Zuyong, Hsien, Marksmanship 2 Husong, and Hac Tao generally get more mileage out of that gun even if they are more expensive.
  • Bring answers to common questions. Do you have something that can deal with armor? How about CH/ODD models? How do you keep your opponent from getting choice terrain? How do you deal with long range assets? Note always bringing hard counters to all of these kind of questions will often constrain your model choice. Sometimes it's better to use a soft solutions like bypassing them or neutering their effectiveness. This is why you'll often see versatile tools like smoke and templates in a list. 
  • Don't go too hog wild with all the cool toys. At the end of the day you still have to complete your mission, and it's often better to limit yourself to a few flagship models while you build a force that can complete your mission.
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General list building tips:

Cover all range bands, so take a sniper, hmg, shotgun etc.

You want smoke and msv.

Infiltrators, especially specialists, are golden for missions that need buttons pressed/boxes opened etc. Saves a lot of orders walking up from deployment zone.

A good spread of specialists is a good idea. Secondary objectives are drawn at random so you want to be able to be able to complete most of them with what you've got on the table. 

8point baggage bots are golden for several of the ITS missions, especially the beacon planting one and all the zone control ones.

General ITS tips:

Always try and do your classifieds, they're usually the difference between a minor victory and a major victory and in the new scoring scheme, that can be the difference between 1St and 5th! If you're on the same tournament points, your objective points determine your placing so classifieds are hugely important 

Don't forget about secure HVT. It's very easy to complete 

Lots of classifieds can be done against unconscious models, telemetry and data scan for example.

Make sure you read and re read the missions thoroughly. It's amazing the number of people who play missions wrong because they remember the old mission pack from two seasons ago lol.

If you're getting spanked and won't get any objectives done, make sure you bunker up and keep your dudes alive. Victory points are awarded for army points alive at the end of the game and are used for tie breakers if you're on the same overall score at the end of the day.

 

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Hi guys! Thanks for the awesome feedback. I played a few games last night and the dice betrayed me. So I'm hoping to get some more tips.

When a sniper has cover on the high ground or is ideally placed. How do you get rid of them? And should you do so at all costs?

If there's a high priority target and they keep passing their armor rolls, how many times do you try and get rid of them before you move on to other objectives and units?

Every time I use a paramedic, the unit i'm trying to resuscitate usually dies. Is there a way to get around the -3PH? 

I've been using the Guiang with the multi sniper but I noticed that the Raiden Seibutai has a similar load out (no infiltration and different camo) which is point for point the best sniper option in faction?

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4 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

Every time I use a paramedic, the unit i'm trying to resuscitate usually dies. Is there a way to get around the -3PH?

I only ever used Paramedic once:

Kitsune is down. I'm in LoL. Last command token to convert one irregular order to regular. Keisotsu runs 8 inches. Moves another 4, throws a Medpack at BS10, passes the roll. Kutsune rolls at modified PH10, passes the roll and proceeds to win the game for me.

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4 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

When a sniper has cover on the high ground or is ideally placed. How do you get rid of them? And should you do so at all costs?

If there's a high priority target and they keep passing their armor rolls, how many times do you try and get rid of them before you move on to other objectives and units?

Every time I use a paramedic, the unit i'm trying to resuscitate usually dies. Is there a way to get around the -3PH? 

I've been using the Guiang with the multi sniper but I noticed that the Raiden Seibutai has a similar load out (no infiltration and different camo) which is point for point the best sniper option in faction?

1: Camo, Surprise, and getting in their bad range bands. Infiltrators and AD troops are great for this. As for removing them, this is kind of a contextual thing. How badly are they throwing a wrench in your gears.

2: This one is sadly entirely contextual. For things that are not mission critical to remove, and keeping in mind I usually play 12-14 order lists, I stop and re-evaluate at 3 orders.

3: Doctors. That's pretty much it.

4: YJ is sadly not really a sniper faction. We seem to like Missile Launchers and HMGs more. That said, if I had to choose between the two, I like the Raiden better.

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8 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

When a sniper has cover on the high ground or is ideally placed. How do you get rid of them? And should you do so at all costs?

Do you absolutely have to kill them?  IE, can you bypass them without getting shot at?  Cautious Move may allow you to cross their LOF without drawing an ARO, for example.  Smoke to block LOF, though that's limited in JSA. 

If you do have to kill them?  XVisor and suppression fire.  Camo.  Hidden Deployment Ninja on the sniper tower, which is usually easy to see and often a good perch for your own Ninja Sniper anyway.  ADing a Tiger onto a large rooftop.

 

8 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

I've been using the Guiang with the multi sniper but I noticed that the Raiden Seibutai has a similar load out (no infiltration and different camo) which is point for point the best sniper option in faction?

Keisotsu, Zanshi, and Celestial Guard MSR are all only good in link teams. 

While the Ninja and Guilang snipers are also only BS11, they pack camo or TO to make it harder for their targets to shoot back (-3 range, cover, and camo is -12 or -9, respectively), and they are usually hitting on 11s (or 14s if you can negate the target's cover by infiltrating and shooting the enemy in the back).

Tiger sniper is an unusual option, shoots at BS13 and has Mimetism, so is often at -9 for return fire.  Have him walk on from a table edge that has a long sightline and watch your opponent struggle.  Or AD him onto a sniper perch.

I don't like the Raiden sniper because he only gets that one shot from combat camo.  IMO, the best Raiden profile is the HRL, which is crazy-cheap and packs a scarier weapon.

Zhanying ML is very difficult to dislodge, and just about immune to assassins.  Sixth Sense L2 says you don't get Stealth or Surprise Attack against me, Bioimmunity says screw your Viral or Shock CCWs, electric pulse says take a -6 to your CC stat, and a missile is a nasty ARO piece.

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FWIW, if you truly want dedicated snipers, the Bounty Hunters aren't that bad all things considered for their prices (especially SWC-wise), and can come with useful things thrown in some of the time, alongside their double breaker pistols. Being irregular can be inconvenient at times, but it does encourage them to attack something/be activated at least one per round, making them at bit more proactive on the field. 

For dealing with enemy snipers far away in their deployment zones, the Hsien HMG + smokes is probably one of the better ways to deal with them (range + high B, more ideal if in a Haris team in IS lists), even more so if said snipers have minetism+/ODD effects. Another solution might be the Yàn Huǒ HMC, although using him might be a bit more risky. In many cases, if the enemy sniper is a MSR user, taking that out would make our investment worthwhile indeed.

Don't expect too much out of paramedics though. More often then not, its better to use FOs as the specialists instead, and leave healing to dedicated doctors and their Yáo Zăo instead.

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Are link teams and fire teams the same thing? 

I used a Raiden HRL for the first time. Holy crap is that dude fun. But he costs 2 SWC. What gems do we have infaction that are not as expensive with their specialists points? 

I also don't really understand how remotes work. You need to have a hacker or a tag to use one. But does that mean that once the hacker or tag dies the remote goes inert? If I have multiple hackers can the remote keep running around or is it tied to a single hacker/tag? 

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16 minutes ago, FrozenMittens said:

Are link teams and fire teams the same thing? 

Yes

16 minutes ago, FrozenMittens said:

I also don't really understand how remotes work. You need to have a hacker or a tag to use one. But does that mean that once the hacker or tag dies the remote goes inert? If I have multiple hackers can the remote keep running around or is it tied to a single hacker/tag? 

No, you only need hacker or TAG to field remotes, it isn't required for continued operation; after it dies, remotes operate normally.

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1 hour ago, FrozenMittens said:

I used a Raiden HRL for the first time. Holy crap is that dude fun. But he costs 2 SWC. What gems do we have infaction that are not as expensive with their specialists points? 

I believe the Raiden HRL only costs 1.5 SWC. But to address your other question:

The Zuyong Lieutenant (Automedikit) HMG is a paltry 1 SWC for a Heavy Infantry HMG
The Yaoxie Rui Shi is an MSV2 Spitfire for 1 SWC
The Yaoxie Lu Duan and Karakuri have a Mk12 for 0 SWC
The Authorized Bounty Hunter Sniper Rifle costs a measily 0.5 SWC
The Oniwaban has a Monofilament CCW and Superior Infiltration for 0 SWC
The Bao Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun has an MSV2 and X-Visor for 0 SWC.
The Imperial Agent, Crane Rank (Sensor, X-Visor) has a MULTI Rifle + X-Visor for 0 SWC
Any troop with Forward Observer equipment (Line Infantry, Guilangs, Kanren, etc...) cost 0 SWC.

Those are some of the ways to get medium and long-range weapons on the cheap. There are many more. Don't be afraid to invest large amounts of SWC, though - the Yan Huo HRMC and Hac Tao HMG may cost at lot of SWC (and points), but they can definitely throw their weight around on the table.

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Okay so I still have yet to win a game amongst my circle of new players. It is starting to feel a bit hopeless. But I will persevere in the hopes of becoming not the worst ever. Here's my questions this week. 

I've been running the Zhanshi just to get a few extra orders but whenever they peak their heads around a corner to give me lanes of AROs they get shot off the table. Do you guys ever activate the models you bring just to bulk your order pool? Or do you leave them in total cover in the deployment zone?

Next question. My heavy infantry keeps getting rallied. Luckily, ours are pretty affordable so i bring a few but I was wondering is it better to bring several heavy infantry options or just two badasses. I'm specifically looking at the Hac Tao which is crazy expensive, I've never run him or anything that costs over 60 points. I know that there is no definite answer to this sort of question but as a guideline. Quality vs quantity?

 

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27 minutes ago, FrozenMittens said:

I've been running the Zhanshi just to get a few extra orders but whenever they peak their heads around a corner to give me lanes of AROs they get shot off the table. Do you guys ever activate the models you bring just to bulk your order pool? Or do you leave them in total cover in the deployment zone?

It's a common mistake when you begin the game, trying to exploit this reaction mechanic as much as possible, because it's new and interesting. Then you realize one thing: If you leave a dude on ARO duty, you should expect this dude to die, because your opponent will likely bring in the right tool to deal with it. Your objective with aro it to make him spend a lot of orders just to deal with your guy. In short, a dude in aro is a sacrifice, but if done right it's worth it.

So to answer your question, it's quite simple: you don't want your orders to die, so you don't risk them unless they're your last resort. you have better models to spend orders on! But there's still some jobs they can do appart from sitting behind a wall! They can cover drop zone/board edge to prevent airborn jumper from entering behind your guys, or you can use them as "link filler" for heavy weapons if you play a sectorial (not so much in Imperial Service, but linked Keisotsu with missile launcher are really nice!).

 

41 minutes ago, FrozenMittens said:

Next question. My heavy infantry keeps getting rallied. Luckily, ours are pretty affordable so i bring a few but I was wondering is it better to bring several heavy infantry options or just two badasses. I'm specifically looking at the Hac Tao which is crazy expensive, I've never run him or anything that costs over 60 points. I know that there is no definite answer to this sort of question but as a guideline. Quality vs quantity?

Both works actually, but you will not play it the same way. also not all the crazy expensive dudes are the same. Some are super good at killing stuff (Hsien/Hac tao/Daofei HMG, Yan huo HRMC), others are just super flexible and can deal with a lot of situations (Hac tao/Crane/Daofei hacker), and finally we have the kind with special features (Sun tze for strategic advantage, Su-jian best flanker 2016).

Overall they're great, but they reduce your ability to spread threatening units/throaway bodies around the boards, which means you have supposedly less board control, but it's easier to apply pressure on one specific point of the board.

Note that nothing stops your from doing a middle ground: one expensive dude, then a bunch-of-less expensive-but-still-capable ones to exploit your advantage and compensate his weaknesses

1 hour ago, FrozenMittens said:

Okay so I still have yet to win a game amongst my circle of new players. It is starting to feel a bit hopeless. But I will persevere in the hopes of becoming not the worst ever.

Perseverance is key. You really start playing infinity once you've learned all the traps and how not to fall in them, but until this point you will learn through pain and defeat.

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10 minutes ago, FrozenMittens said:

Okay so I still have yet to win a game amongst my circle of new players. It is starting to feel a bit hopeless. But I will persevere in the hopes of becoming not the worst ever. Here's my questions this week. 

I've been running the Zhanshi just to get a few extra orders but whenever they peak their heads around a corner to give me lanes of AROs they get shot off the table. Do you guys ever activate the models you bring just to bulk your order pool? Or do you leave them in total cover in the deployment zone?

Next question. My heavy infantry keeps getting rallied. Luckily, ours are pretty affordable so i bring a few but I was wondering is it better to bring several heavy infantry options or just two badasses. I'm specifically looking at the Hac Tao which is crazy expensive, I've never run him or anything that costs over 60 points. I know that there is no definite answer to this sort of question but as a guideline. Quality vs quantity?

Well, my first question is, what is railing on your Line Troopers and Heavy Infantry? Sounds like you're having some issues protecting your pieces in your opponent's turn. It's one of the hardest things to grasp in Infinity, and even as a veteran player I have issues with it sometimes.

Line Infantry are capable active turn troops: the humble Combi Rifle is still Burst 3, which makes up for a lot. However, in ARO they are little more than speed bumps - they'll likely be facing far better armed opponents at less-than-ideal ranges. Generally when I field basic Line Infantry, I don't have them watch approach lanes. I have them watch table edges and other potential AD landing zones. Basically I want them making unopposed shots if any at all. This usually involves burying them in my deployment zone, making them hard to get to. If you're having some trouble keeping your order pool alive, consider investing in a Total Reaction HMG remote, some Shaolin Monks, Kuang Shi, or other cheap templates. If you want to go whole hog, try the Yan Huo Missile Launcher with Tinbot (Neurocinetics). Or go on the cheap end and try the Warcor or Forward Observer Zhanshi/Keisotsu to watch enemy movement.

On the offensive end, it's very hard to go wrong with the Hac Tao HMG. It starts in Hidden Deployment, so it's functionally invulnerable until you want to unleash it. That means it's immune to your opponent's initial attacks unless you want to reveal it. The same is true of Tiger Soldiers, and the Spitfire is a highly effective killer. The Daofei and Raiden  is also a good way to keep your firepower "safe," though they're obviously vulnerable to Discover. 

I hope that helps. If you could provide more specifics on the types of models you're having issues with, perhaps we can help more in depth.

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I usually have 2-3 models watching my back.  That is, they're set up to cover spots where AD troops can drop in (or Airborne Infiltration types can walk onto the table edge), and in total cover from my opponent's side of the table.  In all honesty, you should have 2 models watching your back, 2 models watching the left edge, 2 models watching the right edge, and the other ~4 watching forward.  You should also be trying to set up so that all your models are watching each other's backs (remember that you have 180 degree fields of fire).

I only put models on ARO duty when they're good at it.  Troops like a Missile Launcher with good BS, a Total Reaction drone, etc.  They probably will get killed, their job is to make the opponent burn lots of orders to either kill them or bypass them.

As far as losing games goes, I hate to say it but it tends to happen a lot as you're learning the game.  I'm probably still only 1 win for any 3 games because I don't play enough (maybe 1 game a month right now).  There's a lot of stuff that can and will kick your ass the first time you see it, but almost all of it can be handled through proper deployment and movement.

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Winning in Infinity is definitely about practice and experience.  I learned from Section 9 and another player named Kroot (I don't think he's on the forum anymore) and I lost a lot.  One of the best learning practices I started later was building a full list of some one thing (think CC, or AD troops).  Then you run though the games with these kind of lists till you see what the strengths and weaknesses are, which really helps learn which rolls they perform well in.  Literally you just do everything you can think of in these lists over and over.  That's how We learned CC and hacking in the new (3rd) ed.  Killer hackers are beautiful.  Now, honestly, I rarely loose unless I do some wierd list or something completely different from what one might consider my Normal list builds.

When learning basic troops is valuable, after experience sets in, you can cut them from lists or just use them to fill orders or points.  I've done more with most basic kiesotsu when learning, than any elite unit.

Finally, and this seems pretty key.  when learning an army one of the best things you can do is play the same basic list over and over.  Big  changes to a list can change how the entire list and even individual models play, it's best to just make 1 or 2 model changes till you get it.  The worst player in our group continually changes his whole list every game.  Every time he does anything he learned about how to play it goes straight out the window.  Just because you loose by a lot doesn't mean the list is bad, it could be luck or just playing it wrong.

 

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8 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

Okay so I still have yet to win a game amongst my circle of new players. It is starting to feel a bit hopeless. But I will persevere in the hopes of becoming not the worst ever. Here's my questions this week. 

I've been running the Zhanshi just to get a few extra orders but whenever they peak their heads around a corner to give me lanes of AROs they get shot off the table. Do you guys ever activate the models you bring just to bulk your order pool? Or do you leave them in total cover in the deployment zone?

Next question. My heavy infantry keeps getting rallied. Luckily, ours are pretty affordable so i bring a few but I was wondering is it better to bring several heavy infantry options or just two badasses. I'm specifically looking at the Hac Tao which is crazy expensive, I've never run him or anything that costs over 60 points. I know that there is no definite answer to this sort of question but as a guideline. Quality vs quantity?

 

I'll be brief as a lot has already been covered.

What missions are you playing and how open are the boards??

This is important as to what role your zanshis play. Generally though they tend to watch out for flankers or AD troops, always from some corner so they aren't exposed to general AROs. Try placing them all in suppressive fire using a coordinated order guarding corners.

Try our powerhouses: an Hac Tao HMG with executive order is a beast. You pick your engagements, have a very very solid defence, strong offence, good cc and even template weapon...superb.

With Yu jing ARO/board control is a bit difficult to grasp, we don't have dedicated ARO pieces with useful abilities, no supersnipers or other things. Be aggressive (but don't push too much) with a strong piece and leave it in suppressive fire in a place where some of your other troops (even if weak) can cover it with AROs.

I'd actually go for 2 badasses, one or two no frills HIs, possibly specialists like paramedics or FOs, and then fill it up.

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First of all, I just want to say thank all of you guys for the kinds words. I wasn't trying to be mopey but you guys are all awesome and I hope the dice gods repay your kindness.

Secondly, I won a game! It was against the other player who hasn't won a game yet but still. A W is a W. 

So the scenario we played was Cold Sleep. It was fun. I made all my Zhanshi Forward Observers so they could get points. Pretty much everyone except one model was a specialist. Got lucky on some rolls and my opponent got unlucky on a few clutch ones of his own (not a single smoke grenade throw was successful). But after playing the game I came away with a few more questions. 

I've been playing the Zuyong as my go to heavy. I was running the HMG load out with the automedkit. With the automedkit, do I still take the medikit ph-3 modifier?

If you have a model that's in a situation that isn't favorable, how do you get them out? My example would be that my raiden comes out of camo on a rooftop. Next turn enemy father knight with a HRL goes onto a rooftop and there's a face off. If somehow my Raiden survives the turn (he didn't) how would i get him to safety without incurring any AROs from the enemy model? The Raiden can't cautious move cause he's being seen at the beginning of his movement. Not sure if my example makes sense... the meat of the question is, how do you tactically retreat without losing a model?

Thanks again for all the optimism and advice guys, you guys are a pretty epic community. 

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2 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

I've been playing the Zuyong as my go to heavy. I was running the HMG load out with the automedkit. With the automedkit, do I still take the medikit ph-3 modifier?

From the Wiki:

AUTOMEDIKIT ENTIRE ORDER
Non-Lootable.
REQUIREMENTS

The user of this piece of Equipment must be in Unconscious state.

EFFECTS
  • This piece of Equipment allows its user to spend the Entire Order required to activate it despite being in aNull state.
  • The user of AutoMediKit must spend one Entire Order and then make a PH Roll.
  • If the PH Roll is successful, the user recovers one point of Wounds automatically, canceling the Unconsciousstate and removing the Unconscious Marker from the game.
  • If the PH Roll fails, the user enters the Dead state directly and must be removed from the game.
  • Using AutoMediKit, troopers can recover from the Unconscious state as many times as desired, as long as they keep declaring Entire Orders and passing their PH Rolls.

Nope, it's a straight PH roll. 

 

2 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

If you have a model that's in a situation that isn't favorable, how do you get them out? My example would be that my raiden comes out of camo on a rooftop. Next turn enemy father knight with a HRL goes onto a rooftop and there's a face off. If somehow my Raiden survives the turn (he didn't) how would i get him to safety without incurring any AROs from the enemy model? The Raiden can't cautious move cause he's being seen at the beginning of his movement. Not sure if my example makes sense... the meat of the question is, how do you tactically retreat without losing a model?

Usually by sending someone else to deal with the threat.  Shoot FatherKnight in the head with a sniper or ML, have a Ninja come up behind him and shank him, something like that.

Another option is to ARO-Dodge instead of shooting back and try to duck back into cover.

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yey on the win!!! ;)

 

2 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

If you have a model that's in a situation that isn't favorable, how do you get them out? My example would be that my raiden comes out of camo on a rooftop. Next turn enemy father knight with a HRL goes onto a rooftop and there's a face off. If somehow my Raiden survives the turn (he didn't) how would i get him to safety without incurring any AROs from the enemy model? The Raiden can't cautious move cause he's being seen at the beginning of his movement. Not sure if my example makes sense... the meat of the question is, how do you tactically retreat without losing a model?

It depends...sometimes you just can't. Other you might get away with it using a coordinated order, baiting the problematic model into attacking another piece while you go prone with your raiden for example. Consider though that if the opponent uses more than 3 orders to kill a non-specialist cheap model, the that model did part of his job well enough...3 orders spent killing are 3 orders less used to complete the mission...order economy is key in mission play.

But was it  father knight ML or and order sergeant HRL?

 

2 hours ago, FrozenMittens said:

I've been playing the Zuyong as my go to heavy. I was running the HMG load out with the automedkit. With the automedkit, do I still take the medikit ph-3 modifier?

from the infinity rulebook, page134...the automedikit roll straight PH.

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Assuming that the Raiden survived the reactive turn and wasn't able to go prone/out of LOF either by ARO-dodging or failing his Guts after surviving a hit.

Second, I assume you mean a Father Knight Missile Launcher as there is no HRL profile.

Third, I assume that you don't have another unit that can remove the problem.

Raiden Vs the Father Knight on your active, and your aim is to survive the turn and reposition so that you aren't in LOF for their next turn. If the PanO player is doing this well he'll have ranged you (so outside 32"). Best option is to Move out of LOF and Shoot.

Active Player

24.18% Raiden Seibutai (X Visor) inflicts 1 or more wounds on Father-Knights (1 W)

12.21% Raiden Seibutai (X Visor) inflicts 2 or more wounds on Father-Knights (Unconscious)

6.09% Raiden Seibutai (X Visor) inflicts 3 or more wounds on Father-Knights (Dead)

Failures

31.21% Neither player succeeds

Reactive Player

44.61% Father-Knights inflicts 1 or more wounds on Raiden Seibutai (X Visor) (Unconscious)

28.95% Father-Knights inflicts 2 or more wounds on Raiden Seibutai (X Visor) (Dead)

That's a 55% chance of surviving the order, and a 12% chance of lucking in and taking it out.

If he hasn't ranged you and you're inside 32" then it's a 64% chance of surviving and a 16% of taking it out.

Basically, it's a bad situation to extract from (unless you have a different unit to attack the Father Knight with).

Personally I'd give up the Raiden as dead and force my opponent to spend orders to remove it in his turn by just leaving it where it is (there's a 47% chance he fluffs the roll and needs to spend 2 or more orders on the Father Knight to remove the Raiden including a 13% chance you do wounds to him).

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Yeah inane.imp, it's the missile launcher. Also thanks for the running those numbers. now that I know how hopeless that scenario is I'll avoid it like the plague. 

Ugh. I played the PanO player again. It was.... rough. He ran an Uhlan, the Father Knight with the missile launcher, a Black Friar, Magistar Knight, and a specialist order sergeant. Pretty much wiped the floor with me. Painful 2 hours. Kinda like what I imagine falling on a cactus feels like. 

I ran a Daofei with the HMG, a couple Zuyong, Raiden with a Rocket launcher, a Husong Remote, and a few tiger soldiers. Learned a lot. But it was a rough lesson to learn. 

So pretty much this experience made me realize that he can bully me around with TAGs. So when it comes to making a list, do you guys always bring someone to answer the TAG question? Or do you guys bring a few guys who may collectively be able to bring a harder target down? 

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I usually play Bakunin so my answer to TAGs is pretty much 'Smoke + Hackers and ignore them to do the mission; occasionally, Phys 19 DA/EM CCW; or, Feuerbach Tsyklons'. Oh, also E/M LGLs.

Basically my philosophy is based around limiting their effectiveness rather than killing them outright. With a few troops in the list who can contribute to that end. With maybe 1 which stands a good chance of taking it down properly.

In YJ: Yan Hao can go toe-toe with a TAG (HRMC in your active, 2ML to shut down a line in your reactive) just with less resilience, most of the AHDs are on good profiles that you can get well forward; Mad Traps threaten it and forces your opponents to spend orders clearing them before they activate the TAG; Monofilament CCWs.

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Hac Tao Assault Hacker < My go to answer against all PanO TAGs. Immobilise the thing with the carbonate program and then go to town with the MULTI rifle on AP within 16". Or you could use oblivion so that it can't receive regular orders from the order pool, or you could even try to possess it B)

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