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Am I steel 'phalanxing' OK?

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Hey everyone,

Been lurking, reading up on various choices in SP and what has been working for people.  I've thrown a list together based on stuff I like and from recommendations I've seen online.  Would this work OK or does it have some glaring holes?

 

logo_702.png Steel Phalanx
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_32.pngHECTOR Lieutenant Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades + 1 TinBot A / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 71)
logo_2.pngDACTYL Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Adhesive-Launcher, Nimbus Grenades / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_30.pngACMON Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, Nimbus Grenades, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_12.pngNETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)
logo_12.pngNETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)
logo_18.pngPHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 40)
logo_6.pngMYRMIDON OFFICER (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 35)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Spitfire, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 31)
logo_17.pngMACHAON Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38)
logo_29.pngSCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 1 Devabot Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
 sep.giflogo_29.pngDEVABOT CARIBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7)

5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

 

I've also been considering downgrading acmon and machaon and trying to fit in Atalanta or Teucer.  Worth it?

 

I've also thought about swapping Scylla for infiltrating thras for an upclose and ready  to go specialist but then I've got nothing to combat enemy hackers.

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Looks solid mate. Can downgrade machine to a chain rifle myrmidon, which is drop a net rod and get an agema sniper or something into the list, the only thing you're missing is msv2 so that's where I'd start. If you can swing the points to get an assault or standard hacking device on scylla I'd do that too, gives much more overall utility 

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I personally like Scylla with a killer hacker. Being able to cybermask really helps deliver those flamethrowers :P 

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Ok I fit in some MSV2, Thoughts? It basically drops macheon and acmon for basics to fit in Tuecer

logo_702.png Steel Phalanx
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_32.pngHECTOR Lieutenant Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades + 1 TinBot A / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 71)
logo_2.pngDACTYL Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Adhesive-Launcher, Nimbus Grenades / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_2.pngDACTYL Engineer Combi Rifle, Flammenspeer, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
logo_12.pngNETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)
logo_18.pngPHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 40)
logo_6.pngMYRMIDON OFFICER (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 35)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
logo_27.pngTEUCER (Multispectral Visor L2) Feuerbach, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 44)
logo_29.pngSCYLLA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Maestro) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser + 1 Devabot Charybdis / Pistol, E/M CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
 sep.giflogo_29.pngDEVABOT CARIBDIS Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (7)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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First of all welcome to the Phalanx, I'm sure you'll like it here.

Your updated list is very similar to one I run myself quite often. It's a well-rounded list that covers pretty much all your bases but still leaves room for swapping out units to put emphasis on different units.

My Hector lists are usually based around the following 'core'.

1. Hector + Dactyl "objective" Fire-team
Dactyls are in contention for the best use of Hector's amazing link-ability. He offers them protection in the form of a big bad multi-wound bodyguard shooting a BS13, X-Visor, linked Plasma Rifle and vaporizing anything that gets close enough with CC23, PH14, MA4 + EXP CCW shenanigans. They offer him amazing durability in the form of reasonably priced Doctor + Engineer support and can actually bring a really scary set of ordinance to the table if you play them right.

2. Myrmidon "aggressive/support" Fire-team
Because linked Myrmidons are just our thing in Steel Phalanx. Thanks to their longevity via Smoke + ODD Myrmidon's can be played very aggressively. They have a decent range of options and as such can easily be tailored to support Hector and his Dactyl's in a complementary manner, usually by presenting your opponents with a threat and taking a bit of the heat off the Dactyl fire-team. Phoenix is a staple here as ODD + Fireteam Bonuses + HRL is borderline unfair and presents itself as almost as big of a target as Hector himself.

3. Hacker Support + Rounding out weaponry
While our hacker options may be limited compared to Vanilla Aleph, Steel Phalanx does have some fancy tools to work with and our hackers tend to perform a more tertiary role - usually supporting our larger than life hero units or hunting down enemy hackers that may threaten them. Scylla in particular excels at the more "killy" of the two strategies, as Maestro combined with Cybermask and her absurd hacking range makes her a nightmare for most hackers. Hackers of course also allow you access to a few of Alephs remotes with the Zayin and Lamedh Rebots in particular being low-cost but potentially impactful additions to almost any list.

Beyond the great core you have however, I'd just like to offer a few of my "guilty pleasure" tweaks I make to my list which you may wish to try out if you're having fun with Steel Phalanx and want to try something a bit different.

logo_702.png Dactyl Kill-Team
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png5  
logo_32.pngHECTOR Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades + 1 TinBot A / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 71)
logo_30.pngACMON Combi Rifle, Panzerfaust, Nimbus Grenades, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_2.pngDACTYL Engineer Combi Rifle, Flammenspeer, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
logo_2.pngDACTYL Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle, Adhesive-Launcher, Nimbus Grenades / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_13.pngPROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

0.5 SWC | 153 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Though Dactyls are admittedly quite fragile, I always have an absurdly fun time running this Fire-team.

At a hilariously low 0.5 SWC, there's basically nothing in all of Infinity that wants to be on the receiving end of at least ONE of the weapons this squad brings to the table. With link bonuses applying to a X-Visor Plasma Rifle (B4, DAM13 Small Teardrop-Template or DAM14 Hit-Mode Plasma), Panzerfaust (B2, DAM14, AP+EXP), Flammenspear (B2, DAM14 Circular-Template or DAM15 Hit-Mode Fire) this one squad brings a weapon for ANY possible threat.

Throw in a Baggage-bot in tow to add some extra victory points on objectives and re-load disposable weapons and you've got in my humble opinion one of the most fun Fire-teams in all of Steel Phalanx. Just be prepared for the Doctor to be doing A LOT of work as Dactyls fall over to a stiff breeze.

logo_702.png Not-so-subtle Distraction
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_20.pngAJAX 2 Combi Rifles, Nanopulser / AP Heavy Pistol, EXP CCW. (0 | 39)
logo_17.pngMACHAON Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Spitfire, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 31)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)

1.5 SWC | 124 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Hector is a big, imposing stat-line on a big, imposing model and as such tends to draw a lot of fire, especially while he's dishing out pain with that Plasma Rifle. As he also tends to be our armies Lieutenant, this can be troublesome. While you can always throw in a CoC Myrmidon Officer as an insurance policy, sometimes that's just not HEROIC enough.

What better way to take the attention away from such a big, stand-out model on the battlefield than putting an even BIGGER model on the field and making your opponent choose which one to focus on?

Though he can take some practice to use well and it can be awkward getting him to where he wants to be, Ajax has an uncanny habit of making his points back assuming you can deliver him upon the enemy.

With Machaeon around to offer Eclipse cover and perhaps heal up the odd wound here and there, along with a Spitfire to offer some premier gun-fighting while moving up the field this Fire-team is designed to deliver Ajax up the field and generally be a pain in the butt and drawing your enemies attention so Hector and his Dactyls can move towards objectives with greater ease.

-----

Again, while these strategies in particular may not be the most optimal - they are easy and fun modifications to a well-rounded core list and that can be an absolute blast to play

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Hector is a strange one. I've never tried him with Dactyls but there are definitely merits. I think one of the strengths of the team though is the 4 Man link bonus so if you're running Hector I think you'd want him to be in one of them. The Dactyl load out is interesting giving you a range of long ranged weapons but you are paying a premium in points for the dogged I feel and only WIP 13. Having said that they can link well and with 4-4 move can certainly move.

It might just be me but I'd try and squeeze him in with Machaon.

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1 hour ago, Thaddius said:

The Dactyl load out is interesting giving you a range of long ranged weapons but you are paying a premium in points for the dogged I feel and only WIP 13. Having said that they can link well and with 4-4 move can certainly move.

It might just be me but I'd try and squeeze him in with Machaon.

While Hector no doubt performs great in a Myrmidon squad and you can create some truely terrifying Myrmidon links with him, his strength with Dactyls is honestly just being the big bad scary stat-line that they are most definitely not.

Without access to the amazing Sophotect of Vanilla Aleph and with Thorakitai being slow with their 4-2 movement, Steel Phalanx is often left with the daunting task of delivering fragile Dactyl Doctors or Engineers to objectives.

Hector solves this problem by being a humongous powerhouse unit and acting as a bodyguard. Like I mentioned in my previous post - Hector offers Dactyls protection and they in turn offer him access to link bonuses and nearby Doctor / Engineer support.

My "guns blazing" Dactyl link is more of a "for the hell of it" addition than anything else. It is not always the right tool for the job but it is always funny seeing opponents jaw hit the floor when Acmon's B2 Panzerfaust obliterates the TAG they were planning to use to threaten Hector off his objective.

1 hour ago, Thaddius said:

Hector is a strange one. I've never tried him with Dactyls but there are definitely merits. I think one of the strengths of the team though is the 4 Man link bonus so if you're running Hector I think you'd want him to be in one of them.

The benefit of 4 man links is SSL2 and its ability to boost performance reactive turn shooting - as such I personally believe it doesn't mesh up with how Hector is usually used (though this is just in my experience), especially compared when compared to a unit like Phoenix where +1B and SSL2 turn him into an ARO monster.

Unlike Myrmidons Hector doesn't have ODD and so mostly has to rely on his decent BS13, long-reaching +0/-0 range-band and Burst 4 to keep him safe in FtF. He has decent ARM and BTS if his rolls fail him but ideally he's not taking much fire on the reactive turn anyway. I can see the argument being made of putting him in Suppression as X-Visor makes that legitimately terrifying, but that breaks any Fireteam he is in and so is moot in this case.

Since Hector is usually Lieutenant, Burst 2 ARO just isn't high enough to justify leaving him on ARO duty and risk losing him. Yes he can take on the odd unit but ideally he should be in a relatively sheltered position during the reactive turn; in which case whether or not he has SSL2 is hardly a make-or-break issue.

As such a 3-man Fire-team usually suffices for Hector's needs, especially if his main duty is delivering specialists to objectives and being an active turn gunfighter.

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Yeah I definitely would want to use Hector as an LT but I'm really shit scared of being LoL. You could bring him in with a Myrmidon officer but thats a lot of points. I'd want to run Machaon or someone that is used less aggressively. Having said that I can see why Hector in a Dactyl link of 3 would work. I would be tempted to put it in for 4 for SSL2 even for the dactyls. Being immune to surprise shot/attack can increase survivability. Having said that you probably get more out of it in a Myrmidon link than Dactyls.

 

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Luckily 'ector leaves plenty of SWC room for a CoC Officer. And what's even better is, that the CoC officer is an awesome choice on his own. A V:NWI specialist with ODD, eclipse and WIP14, that combination alone can win you games.

Aside from this, Steel Phalanx is in a pretty decent place, when it comes to actually being in LoL; as everything is linked, there isn't a lot of use for command tokens, so you can easily reserve these for converting irregular to regular orders and maintain the efficiency of the army.

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Wow, thanks for all the tips everyone! Very much appreciated.  I played this list this weekend and was very happy with how it performed, I even managed a win!  A couple of things I noticed:

Tuecer is really really expensive and while he's fairly resilient and damaging, I feel like an agema or nearly 2 of them can cover his role effectively.

I liked the dactyls, the one dr medic'd hector out of NWI but I ended up getting pinned by a K1 combi and a TR bot with no good way to move up an effectively engage either.  My myrm link was engaged on the other side of the table.  So I'm gonna try switching to myrmadons for that link.  I've arrived at:

 

logo_702.png Steel Phalanx
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_32.pngHECTOR Lieutenant Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser, Stun Grenades + 1 TinBot A / Heavy Pistol, EXP CC Weapon. (0 | 71)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
logo_17.pngMACHAON Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 38)
logo_12.pngNETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)
logo_12.pngNETROD Electric Pulse. (0 | 4)
logo_18.pngPHOENIX Heavy Rocket Launcher, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Heavy Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 40)
logo_6.pngMYRMIDON OFFICER (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser, Eclipse Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 35)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
logo_5.pngMYRMIDON Chain Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 16)
logo_4.pngAGÊMA Marksman (X Visor) Mk12 / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png1  
logo_4.pngAGÊMA Marksman MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 30)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

I like how each link has smoke an eclipse grenades depending whats needed and I've got good access to long range firepower as well as up close and personal.  I saw a neat trick this weekend with having an agema basically cover each link with a myrm close enough to drop smoke in ARO letting the sniper aro without worry of repercussion.  The second agema in the second group basically swaps over to the main group once I lose a guy.

A couple points of worry, no engineer no hacker.  Which I think is largely OK.  The guys I'm most worried about have very high PH and WIP and are monsters in F2F rolls anyways.  And if one manages to tag hector and mess him up, I've got redundancy in the second link and support.  I think my second list would focus more on a non ODD list as well.

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Great to hear you managed to pull a win out, congratulations.

Unfortunate to hear that your initial Hector link got bogged down though as has been mentioned before, that tends to happen with Dactyls every now and then as their combat stats are far from stellar.

An important thing to remember however is that the main reason people combine Hector + Dactyls is BECAUSE they are specialists. If you are playing ITS or any objective based game Steel Phalanx has VERY limited options in regards to getting specialists on the table. Thorakitai are too slow to get where they need to be reliably and Myrmidons don't have access to an Engineer Profile. This is why you see so many lists including either a solo Dactyl Engineer with a Yudbot or the aforementioned Hector link.

If you're only playing annihilation then double Myrmidon links can work swimmingly. Try not to be too concerned with stacking ODD either, as long as you're not playing recklessly most opponents simply are not going to have enough MSV or Fire weapons to be a full-blown "counter" to your list.

As for your experiences with Tuecer / Agema.

Tuecer's main draw is that -

1: He brings amazingly accurate anti-armor shooting to a Sectorial with limited access to anti-TAG weaponry.

2: Aside from Smoke + MSV2 shenanigans Teucer is quite possibly the BEST anti-sniper ARO in the game. In the reactive turn against other snipers (assuming both him and his target are in cover), MMLX actually gives Tuecer a big chance to win FtF rolls against most sniper models in ARO and using EXP rounds gives a high chance of putting wounds on them when he is in reactive turn as well.

Aside from that, if you're fond of the Multi-Sniper Agema I'd really advise trying to shuffle some points around to upgrade it to Atalanta. For an extra 9 points you upgrade from a pretty bog-standard MSV2 + Multi-Sniper model to quite literally the most accurate model in the game and she performs her function far better.

I'm also not a huge fan of the MK12 Agema. Agema are pretty fragile gunfighters and usually any smoke + MSV in the active turn will be used on the Multi-Sniper model hunting down threats. If you really want a mid-range powerhouse Gunfighter I would recommend seeing if you can fit a Spitfire Myrmidon or Eudoros your Phoenix link to round-out the range bands that fire-team likes to fight in.

Edited by Ouroboros
Clarity of wording regarding Teucer
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25 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Great to hear you managed to pull a win out, congratulations.

Unfortunate to hear that your initial Hector link got bogged down though as has been mentioned before, that tends to happen with Dactyls every now and then as their combat stats are far from stellar.

An important thing to remember however is that the main reason people combine Hector + Dactyls is BECAUSE they are specialists. If you are playing ITS or any objective based game Steel Phalanx has VERY limited options in regards to getting specialists on the table. Thorakitai are too slow to get where they need to be reliably and Myrmidons don't have access to an Engineer Profile. This is why you see so many lists including either a solo Dactyl Engineer with a Yudbot or the aforementioned Hector link.

If you're only playing annihilation then double Myrmidon links can work swimmingly. Try not to be too concerned with stacking ODD either, as long as you're not playing recklessly most opponents simply are not going to have enough MSV or Fire weapons to be a full-blown "counter" to your list.

As for your experiences with Tuecer / Agema.

Tuecer's main draw is that -

1: He brings amazingly accurate anti-armor shooting to a Sectorial with limited access to anti-TAG weaponry.

2: Aside from Smoke + MSV2 shenanigans Teucer is quite possibly the BEST anti-sniper ARO in the game. In the reactive turn against other snipers (assuming both him and his target are in cover), MMLX actually gives Tuecer a big chance to win FtF rolls against most sniper models and using EXP rounds gives a high chance of putting wounds on them as well.

Aside from that, if you're fond of the Multi-Sniper Agema I'd really advise trying to shuffle some points around to upgrade it to Atalanta. For an extra 9 points you upgrade from a pretty bog-standard MSV2 + Multi-Sniper model to quite literally the most accurate model in the game and she performs her function far better.

I'm also not a huge fan of the MK12 Agema. Agema are pretty fragile gunfighters and usually any smoke + MSV in the active turn will be used on the Multi-Sniper model hunting down threats. If you really want a mid-range powerhouse Gunfighter I would recommend seeing if you can fit a Spitfire Myrmidon or Eudoros your Phoenix link to round-out the range bands that fire-team likes to fight in.

Great points! I too am worried about the lack of engineer.  I could drop the MK12 to fit one in though.  Macheon is a specialist though.

 

I do love the Teucer model but I thought MMLX was only during the active turn?

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MMX is both Active and Reactive, BUT you have to have Burst > 1 after modifiers so you can downgrade to B1.

Meaning Teucer can only use it in Active turn, since on Reactive he is Burst 1 without a way to have higher Burst (like Fireteam or Suppression Fire).

I really, really want to love Teucer but honestly he just keeps getting used as Agema Missile Launcher. To be fair, I play vanilla but still.

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8 minutes ago, Nemo No Name said:

MMX is both Active and Reactive, BUT you have to have Burst > 1 after modifiers so you can downgrade to B1.

Meaning Teucer can only use it in Active turn, since on Reactive he is Burst 1 without a way to have higher Burst (like Fireteam or Suppression Fire).

I really, really want to love Teucer but honestly he just keeps getting used as Agema Missile Launcher. To be fair, I play vanilla but still.

I think there is potential but he works in a different playstyle than is common in ALEPH. Maybe he'll be my next guy to champion.

MMX does have a significant increase in many scenarios on him. It improves his chances especially against powerful AROs.

I actually think he has more Vanilla potential than Phalanx, but to be fair I also do not play Phalanx.

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3 minutes ago, Loricus said:

MMX does have a significant increase in many scenarios on him. It improves his chances especially against powerful AROs.

That is true, although I would say "some" rather than "many".

3 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I actually think he has more Vanilla potential than Phalanx, but to be fair I also do not play Phalanx.

I agree, and that.is why I use him. But with Shock abundant, he is always in big danger and a B2 weapon is inherently risky.

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23 minutes ago, Nemo No Name said:

MMX is both Active and Reactive

MMLX specifically calls out that it can only be used in the Active turn. Still, pretty moot point considering Teucer has no access to increased Burst in the Reactive turn.

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Yeah, apologies if I worded that badly.

What I try to put emphasis on is how good MMLX performs against powerful ARO units - and how his decent BS14, combined with NWI and the option of AP+DA or EXP Rounds make him a pretty nasty ARO piece in his own right.

32 minutes ago, Nemo No Name said:

I really, really want to love Teucer but honestly he just keeps getting used as Agema Missile Launcher. To be fair, I play vanilla but still.

Don't get me wrong. He's quite expensive and the ML Agema can do plenty of work - though he looks pretty sad compared to Phoenix with link bonuses.

I just feel like Teucer just has a little more of a "spot" in Steel Phalanx as we really struggle to bring long-range anti-TAG/HI weaponry to the table.

There's also the fact that while he tends to draw a lot of attention himself, if he's running as fire-support for something like a Hector or Ajax Myrmidon link that your opponent REALLY wants to keep away he tends to draw less enemy fire than might otherwise be the case.

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7 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Yeah, apologies if I worded that badly.

What I try to put emphasis on is how good MMLX performs against powerful ARO units - and how his decent BS14, combined with NWI and the option of AP+DA or EXP Rounds make him a pretty nasty ARO piece in his own right.

Don't get me wrong. He's quite expensive and the ML Agema can do plenty of work - though he looks pretty sad compared to Phoenix with link bonuses.

I just feel like Teucer just has a little more of a "spot" in Steel Phalanx as we really struggle to bring long-range anti-TAG/HI weaponry to the table.

There's also the fact that while he tends to draw a lot of attention himself, if he's running as fire-support for something like a Hector or Ajax Myrmidon link that your opponent REALLY wants to keep away he tends to draw less enemy fire than might otherwise be the case.

He also keeps the ability to further swing the BS difference against HMG since Feuerbach gets +0 past HMG range which is pretty cool. My typical Nomad list has an Intruder with his own order pool in the second group, so if I started using him for that role Free Agent would become useful.

Vanilla also struggles with long range weapons good for armor. New Posthuman MK5 adds a good amount but still.

Phoenix sinks so much logistics to get link bonuses. If you are keeping Phoenix at optimal ranges the rest of the link is usually wasted. Plus Phoenix loses the extended HMG rangeband (huge IMO), allowing him to lose a lot of BS if your opponent takes advantage of that, and preventing him from using that as an advantage actively.

If you can out-range a TR bot with Teucer and use MMX, then compare it to linked Pheonix in range, Teucer loses 15% chance to kill and about 5% higher chance to get wounded. Pretty good! If you lose Phoenix link bonus the chances are about the same. This is without smoke, which advantages Teucer in both cases. If you go up to Sin Eater Pheonix is only slight better with link bonus, and much much worse without link bonus.

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I can't imagine a reason to pick a regular agema over teucer except for points. Nwi and his feurbach make him an awesome ARO piece that can fall back if he gets beaten by something and only takes one damage. I've had too many shots with Atalanta where she's rolling two dice at 17 through smoke and my opponent has one die at 1 and Atalanta takes the lucky crit. In that situation with teucer, he's almost always okay.

That being said, msv+ smoke shenanigans are tough to swing with steel phalanx because it's tough to get enough orders to make it work. With nomads or haqq, you can get 15+ order lists pretty easily and then spending a couple of those orders to lay down smoke and line of the shots is worth it. If you only have 11 orders to kill enemy pieces and get to objectives, it can be better to rely on odd and the fireteam bonuses. After all, a myrmidon shooting at a revealed Camo unit in the active turn is almost always going to win the face to face roll.

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11 hours ago, yoink101 said:

I can't imagine a reason to pick a regular agema over teucer except for points. Nwi and his feurbach make him an awesome ARO piece that can fall back if he gets beaten by something and only takes one damage. I've had too many shots with Atalanta where she's rolling two dice at 17 through smoke and my opponent has one die at 1 and Atalanta takes the lucky crit. In that situation with teucer, he's almost always okay.

That being said, msv+ smoke shenanigans are tough to swing with steel phalanx because it's tough to get enough orders to make it work. With nomads or haqq, you can get 15+ order lists pretty easily and then spending a couple of those orders to lay down smoke and line of the shots is worth it. If you only have 11 orders to kill enemy pieces and get to objectives, it can be better to rely on odd and the fireteam bonuses. After all, a myrmidon shooting at a revealed Camo unit in the active turn is almost always going to win the face to face roll.

Yeah I love Teucer but I can nearly get 2 agema for his cost (well like 75%) who can each sit next to a myrm a get aro smoke.  

 

I need to try Teucer more thou.

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1 hour ago, Panzer said:

Yeah I love Teucer but I can nearly get 2 agema for his cost (well like 75%) who can each sit next to a myrm a get aro smoke.  

 

I need to try Teucer more thou.

I love Teucer, it's my favorite looking model in the Infinity line up. 

If I start out reactive, then I use him as an ARO unit and often fall back into total cover if he goes NWI so that I have the option to come back and do more on the active turn. If I start out active, he can deal with most ARO units well enough and then get into an optimal ARO position himself.

With 14 BS, cover, explosive ammo and NWI I find him much more durable and dangerous as an ARO unit than an Agema. I pretty much get him killed every game, but I force my opponents deal with him and waste orders doing so.

I have been including him less and less though because 2 SWC is pretty hard to swallow in a lot of SP lists.   

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3 hours ago, Panzer said:

Yeah I love Teucer but I can nearly get 2 agema for his cost (well like 75%) who can each sit next to a myrm a get aro smoke.

While it may come down to a difference in play-style and your mileage may vary, my general mindset when considering Agema and their Homeridae is as such:

Though we tend to be pretty low on orders compared to other factions Steel Phalanx is particularly order efficient, even when compared to other Sectorials.

This of course isn't just because fire-teams make great use of orders, but also because our individual units tend to have above average stats/weaponry and as such have above average potential during every activation.

Agema are perhaps the quintessential example of this. If you're using one of our precious few orders on activating an Agema, it's likely because you're hunting a threat encroaching on an objective or blocking one of your fire-teams from advancing.

Usually of course you want to cover this activation with smoke. Yes this is an additional order but Myrmidon squads are perhaps the best in Infinity at Short Movement + Smoke order. Up to 4 models get up to 4 inch movement and from there Myrmidons high PH gives them a good chance at succeeding their roll. Burst 2 from the link bonus only makes this even better, with the option of either placing smoke in two different locations or pretty much guaranteeing smoke in one area.

Once your smoke is in place you're going to want the best bang-for-your-buck from your Agema and this is why so Atalanta / Teucer are so attractive.

Atalanta's effective BS17 makes her the most accurate active turn Multi-Sniper + MSVL2 model in the game. Conversely while Tuecer is slightly less accurate, MMLX and NWI offer him enhanced durability and the Feuerbach give extra punch against high ARM targets.

If you're spending orders on a MSVL2 model, you want it to do the job as best it can and in Steel Phalanx we often don't have enough orders to smoke multiple fire-lanes and activate multiple different sniper models. Better to have a single sniper model with superior shooting ability and simply use good placement to give him coverage over the table.

If you are REALLY after the extra order then something like a Lamedh Rebot or FO Thorakitae can provide a cheap, semi-disposable order for your superior sniper to use, while also remaining an ARO annoyance for your opponent. Steel Phalanx really is made up of key order-efficient models / fire-teams with a few extra cheap units around to feed them orders (Netrods, Rebots, Probots and the odd Thorakitai all perform this function).

Though it's a bit of a misnomer I'm going to go back to the MK12 Agema as an example. There's nothing that this model cannot do that something like the addition of a Spitfire Myrmidon or Eudoros to a fire-team won't do just as well, with the added bonus of adding an extra effective range-band to one of your fire-teams.

They're even better on the reactive turn as ODD + fire-team bonuses makes them much better at keeping their heads out and surviving compared to the fragile Agema. If you're adding a mid-range gunfighter to your list you want it to be the most effective mid-range gunfighter your list allows.

Again, it's not that Agema don't have a place in Steel Phalanx. Lord knows I have played them plenty of times and sometimes you just don't have enough points to justify the upgrade to Atalanta / Teucer.

It's just in my opinion that long-range support is a very specific use of orders. If you can spare the points / SWC you really should pick the model with the highest chance of performing its job successfully.

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23 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

While it may come down to a difference in play-style and your mileage may vary, my general mindset when considering Agema and their Homeridae is as such:

Though we tend to be pretty low on orders compared to other factions Steel Phalanx is particularly order efficient, even when compared to other Sectorials.

This of course isn't just because fire-teams make great use of orders, but also because our individual units tend to have above average stats/weaponry and as such have above average potential during every activation.

Agema are perhaps the quintessential example of this. If you're using one of our precious few orders on activating an Agema, it's likely because you're hunting a threat encroaching on an objective or blocking one of your fire-teams from advancing.

Usually of course you want to cover this activation with smoke. Yes this is an additional order but Myrmidon squads are perhaps the best in Infinity at Short Movement + Smoke order. Up to 4 models get up to 4 inch movement and from there Myrmidons high PH gives them a good chance at succeeding their roll. Burst 2 from the link bonus only makes this even better, with the option of either placing smoke in two different locations or pretty much guaranteeing smoke in one area.

Once your smoke is in place you're going to want the best bang-for-your-buck from your Agema and this is why so Atalanta / Teucer are so attractive.

Atalanta's effective BS17 makes her the most accurate active turn Multi-Sniper + MSVL2 model in the game. Conversely while Tuecer is slightly less accurate, MMLX and NWI offer him enhanced durability and the Feuerbach give extra punch against high ARM targets.

If you're spending orders on a MSVL2 model, you want it to do the job as best it can and in Steel Phalanx we often don't have enough orders to smoke multiple fire-lanes and activate multiple different sniper models. Better to have a single sniper model with superior shooting ability and simply use good placement to give him coverage over the table.

If you are REALLY after the extra order then something like a Lamedh Rebot or FO Thorakitae can provide a cheap, semi-disposable order for your superior sniper to use, while also remaining an ARO annoyance for your opponent. Steel Phalanx really is made up of key order-efficient models / fire-teams with a few extra cheap units around to feed them orders (Netrods, Rebots, Probots and the odd Thorakitai all perform this function).

Though it's a bit of a misnomer I'm going to go back to the MK12 Agema as an example. There's nothing that this model cannot do that something like the addition of a Spitfire Myrmidon or Eudoros to a fire-team won't do just as well, with the added bonus of adding an extra effective range-band to one of your fire-teams.

They're even better on the reactive turn as ODD + fire-team bonuses makes them much better at keeping their heads out and surviving compared to the fragile Agema. If you're adding a mid-range gunfighter to your list you want it to be the most effective mid-range gunfighter your list allows.

Again, it's not that Agema don't have a place in Steel Phalanx. Lord knows I have played them plenty of times and sometimes you just don't have enough points to justify the upgrade to Atalanta / Teucer.

It's just in my opinion that long-range support is a very specific use of orders. If you can spare the points / SWC you really should pick the model with the highest chance of performing its job successfully.

Very good points and I'm inclined to agree on most of them.  Part of what's attractive to me with the twin agema as opposed to say a Teucer or Atalanta is table coverage.  I can stick one on each flank and react to the situation as needed without needing to spend a bunch of orders to redeploy.  This compounds with having a myrm nearby and ARO smoke onto them to provide a really solid PAIR of ARO pieces (I realize I can do this with Atalanta and Teucer but in this situation I can do it on both flanks).  Additionally, while spitfire/combi myrms are amazing and able to solve a lot of long ranged problems, they're still susceptible to multiple aros and lucky crits.  With a smoke and an agema (again on either flank) I can shoot and only need to worry about an ARO from the model I'm shooting at (assuming no other MSV).

I completely agree that Teucer and Atalanta are the superior models (they should be, they're a significant investment) but I'm not 100% sold that one of them plus a lamedh is better (or worse) than 2 agema.  While T or A will be the superior model during its lifetime, when they go down you are left with a flash pulse/order (which can be decent on its own) but when an agema goes down, I have another one.  There's comfort in that MSV redundancy.  Realistically a BS13 MSV2 MSR agema or a BS13 Xvisor MSV2 Mk12 is still a very decent gun platform compared to what a lot of other factions have access too (in that point range).  Also putting the MK12 into suppression fire and having ARO smoke tossed on it is a pretty nasty combo (especially with the xvisor/MSV2).

As I certainly agree with a lot of what you said, I'm gonna give Tuecer another couple of tries as he's the better looking model imo haha.

Great thread so far! Learning tonnes, really appreciate the help everyone!!

 

EDIT: I guess its actually Teucer + lamedh + lamedh which certainly makes the arguement more attractive for Teucer.

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Don't get me wrong, there's certainly a time and a place for something like 2x Agema, especially if your table layout makes it hard to re-position a single model.

There are however a few things you bring up that I find interesting points of discussion.

50 minutes ago, Panzer said:

While T or A will be the superior model during its lifetime, when they go down you are left with a flash pulse/order (which can be decent on its own) but when an agema goes down, I have another one. There's comfort in that MSV redundancy.

This is an interesting perspective on things and I think this may be based more on personal experience than anything else.

In my games usually effectiveness trumps redundancy, especially when it comes to a model that I would ideally not be losing in the first place (though of course everything can die to a stray crit etc).

When comparing the standard Agema and Atalanta, Atalanta is far less likely to lose FtF rolls, which in itself can give her durability over the vanilla. She is also far less likely to miss her targets during active turn hunting, which means both conservation of orders and lowers the chance of failing to kill what you really need dead and having it cause trouble during your opponents next activation.

My thoughts on Teucer are similar, yes you may lose out on a second source of MSVL2, but he by comparison is much better at killing what you need dead and far less likely to die to either a stray critical or bad rolls.

I guess it's sort of like this - why stack back-up plans when you can simply have a more solid original plan that is less prone to failure.

Of course the funny part is that when comparing 2x Agema and something like Atalanta/Teucer + 2 Lamedh specifically - the Lamedh are TRUELY disposable. 8 points is a bargain for a super annoying ARO piece and they have a bad habit of bogging down way more orders than they're worth for your opponent.

50 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Additionally, while spitfire/combi myrms are amazing and able to solve a lot of long ranged problems, they're still susceptible to multiple aros and lucky crits.

Though a valid point with all due respect EVERYTHING dies to multiple AROs and lucky crits, most especially stuff like Agema.

With no extra modifiers like camo/ODD and no link bonuses available Agema are some of the most vulnerable units to have their heads out during the reactive turn.

Yes you can smoke them with a Myrmidon but since smoke resolves at the END of the order this leaves at least one shooting phase on your opponents part where your Agema is limited to challenging FtF with B1 and that's assuming the Myrm doesn't fail his roll.

It's of course also risky for Atalanta / Teucer but with Atalanta is rolling off of BS17 and Teucer having BS14 + NWI they are far more likely to not die on that initial ARO.

50 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Realistically a BS13 MSV2 MSR agema or a BS13 Xvisor MSV2 Mk12 is still a very decent gun platform compared to what a lot of other factions have access too (in that point range).  Also putting the MK12 into suppression fire and having ARO smoke tossed on it is a pretty nasty combo (especially with the xvisor/MSV2).

Now this one is purely personal opinion on my part and I'm not going to lie.

I dislike the MK12 Agema.

To me it seems a waste in a sectorial which has access to stuff like the linked Spitfire Myrmidon or Eurdoros with ODD + SSL2, along with the plethora of other crazy mid-range gunfighters that we have that don't necessarily require another unit tossing smoke on them to be effective (Achilles, Patroclus, Diomedes, HMG Ekdromoi, Drakios with Red Fury, Alke + Thorakitai link etc.).

Heck if you're after a defensive ARO piece then a Zayin Rebot provides cheap, long-range firepower and if you have never taken advantage of a TR HMG bot with support-ware you owe it to yourself to try it out. There's few things in the game that make back their points as reliably as a TR Bot with MSL2.

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@Ouroboros The increased hit chance on Atalanta and addition of AP on Teucer drastically increase to-wound and multi to-wound chance, another major factor in order efficiency. Heavy targets can take time for an Agema to chew through.

That being said I love all Agema profiles and have taken each one. But Atalanta and Teucer are undoubtedly order efficient. Agema are nice when you want any MSV just to deal with stuff like TO but don't want to sink points in to it, especially the low cost + low SWC MK12.

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