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abydog

critical while shooting into close combat

Question

Hi all.

Quick question from our last game:

We had a trooper in active turn shooting into a close combat situation consisting of a fellow trooper and an enemy. The Burst showed a critical and a miss which was on the range of the failure category.  So the miss should have hit the fellow trooper. Now we debated whether the critical canceled out the failure?

Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

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Presumably you were hitting on something like 7s (taking the -6 into account) and you rolled (for example) a 7 and a 9?

In which case, the crit causes a wound on the enemy and the miss would hit the friendly trooper.

Your crits don't cancel your misses.

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Rule of thumb is that on a single target a beneficial effect and a negative effect from the same skill resolution cancels each other out. This is two different targets and also two negative effects. (That's a rule of thumb, in practice effects only cancel each other out if specified)

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26 minutes ago, Cartographer said:

Presumably you were hitting on something like 7s (taking the -6 into account) and you rolled (for example) a 7 and a 9?

In which case, the crit causes a wound on the enemy and the miss would hit the friendly trooper.

Your crits don't cancel your misses.

I would also go this way. Say sorry to Steve!

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1 hour ago, abydog said:

Hi all.

Quick question from our last game:

We had a trooper in active turn shooting into a close combat situation consisting of a fellow trooper and an enemy. The Burst showed a critical and a miss which was on the range of the failure category.  So the miss should have hit the fellow trooper. Now we debated whether the critical canceled out the failure?

Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.

The miss would have only hit the fellow trooper if the roll failed; and it did not.

The rules state that you only hit your allied trooper if you "fail[] the roll."  But the crit here means the player succeeded in his roll.  The rules state pretty clearly that if you roll a crit, "[t]he goal of the action was achieved in the best possible way. A perfect success..." (p. 21)  Seems like the very definition of the opposite of failure to me.  Really, I think you can end the matter there.  There's nothing else in the rules under shooting into CC, or under Rolls generally, to suggest that in this situation failures are still counted despite a critical success in the roll.  I'd expect to see clear language to that effect if that were the case since it would mark a break with the rules governing rolls in every other circumstance.  Nowhere in Infinity, to my knowledge, do failures take effect over or despite a crit--they're only ever cancelled in FtF if your opponent also rolls one or more crits.  People can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that.

My guess is the aggrieved party here is arguing based on the use of the singular "Roll" under the "Shooting into CC" section.  But that's just how we speak, and it also happens to be how the book is written.  "Rolls" is used as a verb in the rule book and as a noun in those circumstances where there are (or are potentially) multiple rolls that need to be made, or in the abstract.  CB is quite consistent in this.  After a quick search, I cannot find an instance of CB using "rolls" to refer to an instance where a player needs to make a single roll that involves multiple dice (for example, firing a combi rifle at B3).  And while it's true that the example for the shooting into BS section involves the roll of a single die, that's because the shooter is using an ARO.  If you look to other sections throughout the book (for example an Akal shooting with a CR on pp 20-21), you see that CB uses the singular "Roll" when describing the roll made when shooting a weapon that clearly has a Burst value higher than 1.

Edit:  I see that others above pretty flatly disagree with my analysis, so I'm interested to see where this goes.  I don't regard the attack as directed at two targets, and that's probably where we're diverging.  You're still shooting at the enemy trooper--hence the -6 modifer to hit the enemy trooper--you're not shooting at both.  The language in the rules is:

If a trooper declares a BS Attack against an enemy in base to base contact with an ally, he applies a -6 MOD to his BS for each ally in that Close Combat...

It doesn't say "If a trooper declares a BS attack against troops in CC."  Similarly, the example below states that Fusilier Angus is opening fire on Ortega, not shooting at him and Bipandra.  Where are you guys getting the second target from?

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YoJamesBo - I can't tell which way you're arguing for. :( 

In this case it's pretty clear - the critical roll crits the target, and the roll that failed hits the other combatant.

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@YoJamesBo OP stated he missed within failure category meaning he hit a friendly. Also, no one is stating a failure cancels a crit.

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18 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

YoJamesBo - I can't tell which way you're arguing for. :( 

In this case it's pretty clear - the critical roll crits the target, and the roll that failed hits the other combatant.

I tried to clean up my language a bit, got lengthy.  I disagree with you. :lol:

11 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

@YoJamesBo OP stated he missed within failure category meaning he hit a friendly. Also, no one is stating a crit cancels a failure.

Again, messy language; fixed.

 

So, is the position you guys are taking that each and every die rolled in a BS attack against a single target is a separate "roll"?  That strikes me as really bizarre given the language of the rules and common English usage.  No one says, "I'm going to make my rolls for this here Spitfire."  And it also runs counter to the way you throw the dice.  You make a single roll, you don't roll them one at a time.  But hey, if IJW is on board it's probably right.  Where am I going wrong? :huh:

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12 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

YoJamesBo - I can't tell which way you're arguing for. :( 

In this case it's pretty clear - the critical roll crits the target, and the roll that failed hits the other combatant.

So this is the only situation in the game (Shooting into cc) where more dice could actually screw you over? I can't think of any other time that rolling a crit and a miss on the same toss of dice has a negative effect.

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5 minutes ago, YoJamesBo said:

I tried to clean up my language a bit, got lengthy.  I disagree with you. :lol:

Again, messy language; fixed.

 

So, is the position you guys are taking that each and every die rolled in a BS attack is a separate "roll"?  That strikes me as really bizarre given the language of the rules and common English usage.  No one says, "I'm going to make my rolls for this here Spitfire."  And it also runs counter to the way you throw the dice.  You make a single roll, you don't roll them one at a time.  But hey, if IJW is on board it's probably right.  Where am I going wrong? :huh:

Why would it not be it's own roll? I mean, do you roll full burst and then if all 4 attacks hit you only take one ARM roll?

3 minutes ago, macfergusson said:

So this is the only situation in the game (Shooting into cc) where more dice could actually screw you over? I can't think of any other time that rolling a crit and a miss on the same toss of dice has a negative effect.

I don't know what you're talking about, really. You're shooting at a guy who's basically grappling with a friendly, of course you'll risk hitting your friend with a few bullets. Besides, there's also shooting Medikit darts, where a "crit" can be cancelled by a failure.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Weapon_Profile#Burst_.28B.29

This means that when you declare a BS Attack with a Combi Rifle, you can make three BS Rolls - each one an attempt to hit a target - because the weapon's Burst is 3.

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5 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Why would it not be it's own roll? I mean, do you roll full burst and then if all 4 attacks hit you only take one ARM roll?

I don't know what you're talking about, really. You're shooting at a guy who's basically grappling with a friendly, of course you'll risk hitting your friend with a few bullets. Besides, there's also shooting Medikit darts, where a "crit" can be cancelled by a failure.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Weapon_Profile#Burst_.28B.29

This means that when you declare a BS Attack with a Combi Rifle, you can make three BS Rolls - each one an attempt to hit a target - because the weapon's Burst is 3.

Why would critting your BS roll on a medikit be cancelled by a miss? Where are you getting that from?

And yes I understand the cinematics of the shooting into CC penalty, that's why the rule exists in the first place.  However this interpretation is more onerous on the shooting player than I read the rule as.

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14 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Weapon_Profile#Burst_.28B.29

This means that when you declare a BS Attack with a Combi Rifle, you can make three BS Rolls - each one an attempt to hit a target - because the weapon's Burst is 3.

Question:  ANSWERED!  

Thanks!

This language doesn't exist in the rules:  IGNORE THIS.

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16 minutes ago, YoJamesBo said:

So, is the position you guys are taking that each and every die rolled in a BS attack against a single target is a separate "roll"?

Yes, because that's what the rules say. From: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Weapon_Profile#Burst_.28B.29

 

Burst (B)

The B value is the number of shots the weapon is capable of firing in a single BS Attack Skill declaration. This value only applies during the Active Turn.

During the Reactive Turn, the B value is reduced to 1.

When firing, you can distribute the weapon's Burst amongst any number of enemies within LoF. Choose this distribution when declaring the Short Skill BS Attack.

This means that when you declare a BS Attack with a Combi Rifle, you can make three BS Rolls - each one an attempt to hit a target - because the weapon's Burst is 3.

 

Relevant text highlighted in red.

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7 minutes ago, macfergusson said:

Why would critting your BS roll on a medikit be cancelled by a miss? Where are you getting that from?

And yes I understand the cinematics of the shooting into CC penalty, that's why the rule exists in the first place.  However this interpretation is more onerous on the shooting player than I read the rule as.

I think you're really talking around the topic or missing it. I do believe the Medikit thing has been FAQed when shooting, but if a Coordinated order is used to make several doctor/medikit rolls on a single target, a crit (which has no extra effect in this case) will be cancelled out by a miss on the PH/WIP rolls.

Do notice the link to Burst I provided, each shot is its separate attack. Each attack can hit or miss individually and do not affect each other.

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40 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Also, no one is stating a failure cancels a crit.

it is true a failure does not cancel a crit. But the other way around is also true : a crit does not cancel the fact you had a failure.

When shooting or doing almost any action requiring a roll, usually it is that a pass provides a benefit and a miss is neutral* (no good nor bad effect).

When shooting into CC, a miss now have a bad effect, and it does apply on all your misses.

*except for Discover, a miss means you cannot attempt against that target again. Should you do a discover+discover if you pass 1 and fail 1, both positive and negative effect apply, but then the pass changed your target's state meaning you won't need to attempt a discover again anyway.

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See?  I knew I was done for when IJW chimed in on the other side.  :P

It is still a weird, niche situation.  I don't think I've had an opportunity to screw it up, but if I had, I would have done so.  

As a general question: are there other situations in game where a failure will have an effect despite also rolling successes?  I can't think of any, but might as well find out while we're on the subject.

Edited by YoJamesBo
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1 minute ago, Mahtamori said:

I think you're really talking around the topic or missing it. I do believe the Medikit thing has been FAQed when shooting, but if a Coordinated order is used to make several doctor/medikit rolls on a single target, a crit (which has no extra effect in this case) will be cancelled out by a miss on the PH/WIP rolls.

Do notice the link to Burst I provided, each shot is its separate attack. Each attack can hit or miss individually and do not affect each other.

I'm not arguing the CC rule interpretation here. That was a past tense "read", I was pointing out that this was a unique situation which I wasn't aware of.

Your comparison to medikit was strange though, which is what I was focusing my response on. I was just looking for that FAQ on multiple heal checks at once and I'm having trouble finding it, however that has nothing to do with shooting Medikit darts. The dart roll is separate from the heal check, so there's no reason that missing a dart would cancel a hit/crit.

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1 minute ago, macfergusson said:

I'm not arguing the CC rule interpretation here. That was a past tense "read", I was pointing out that this was a unique situation which I wasn't aware of.

Your comparison to medikit was strange though, which is what I was focusing my response on. I was just looking for that FAQ on multiple heal checks at once and I'm having trouble finding it, however that has nothing to do with shooting Medikit darts. The dart roll is separate from the heal check, so there's no reason that missing a dart would cancel a hit/crit.

 

23 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

where a "crit" can be cancelled by a failure.

:) 

It wasn't on topic, so I didn't print it out more so than imply it to save space, but sometimes it seems people are hunting accuracy on these forums so much that writing essays is the only way to go. I think the dart issue was informally FAQed in a post, or it is one of those that is coming in a future FAQ, where the target will only make a single PH roll regardless of how many Medikit darts you shoot.

--

Am I reading this correctly, shooting a Medikit dart at a friendly who is engaged means you do not suffer a -6 to hit because you are not attempting to hit an enemy?

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6 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Am I reading this correctly, shooting a Medikit dart at a friendly who is engaged means you do not suffer a -6 to hit because you are not attempting to hit an enemy?

It woud seem so, yes... Only likely to come up with a Dogged/NWI model though, as the opposing trooper would likely not be engaged anymore at that point otherwise  (unconscious enemy).

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43 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Am I reading this correctly, shooting a Medikit dart at a friendly who is engaged means you do not suffer a -6 to hit because you are not attempting to hit an enemy?

Congrats, you found a cheeky loophole!

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51 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Am I reading this correctly, shooting a Medikit dart at a friendly who is engaged means you do not suffer a -6 to hit because you are not attempting to hit an enemy?

Wow, never thought about such situaion. Nice find!

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But isn't the -6 penalty applied in the first place because the enemy is locked in CC with a friendly?  That means that the -6 penalty is more for shooting anything into CC that shooting an "enemy"

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10 hours ago, Danger Rose said:

But isn't the -6 penalty applied in the first place because the enemy is locked in CC with a friendly?  That means that the -6 penalty is more for shooting anything into CC that shooting an "enemy"

Copy/paste from the wiki:

If a trooper declares a BS Attack against an enemy in base to base contact with an ally, he applies a -6 MOD to his BS for each ally in that Close Combat (this is in addition to all other MODs for RangeCoverCH: Camouflage, etc.).

So....

The -6 is applied because you're declaring a BS ATtack against an enemy in base contact with an ally.  Your second sentence doesn't follow from that.

 

 

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And besides which, failing the roll within failure category would have the shot land on an ally, so unless there's several allies in base contact with the target, it'd land on target. I was mostly looking up those rules with the mindset "it'd be hilarious if it's written as the dart landing on the enemy and forcing a conscious enemy to take a PH-3 roll to avoid death", but it turned out that wasn't the case :P

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