Teslarod

PanO is good as it is - brainstorming reasonable adjustments

217 posts in this topic

While derailing another thread with good ol' "hurr durr PanO doesn't get nice things" schenanigans there were a lot of opinions to be had and stuff to be said.

Guess we might as well spare everyone else from it and collect it in one place. Time for a short PanO design study.

Things that sound like PanO's thing:

- no regular Smoke

- below average WIP12-13 except for very few (and expensive) exceptions

- emphasis on shooting with BS weaponry and top of the line access to advanced guns like Multi weapons

- above average (or even exclusive) access to gear such as MSVs, Aux Bots, Drop Bears, TO Camo, ODD and advanced armour types, including TAGs

- Knight hybrid HI, good at shooting, decent at melee combat

- no bullshit default profiles - dude with rifle, dude with shotgun, dude with HMG, frills are for Nomads

 

While there has to be some margin of individuality in between factions there are some things that I don't get in PanO

- weird crutches: 1 guy with an auxbot has Zero V smoke, CamO Tags don't get DTWs because the Sphinx needs to have a defining feature, 2 kinds of bland AD troopers, AVA1 WIP12 Engineer while WIP 14/15 Doctor Plus is a thing

-Advanced Command, Strategos and Chain of Command missing (if you want to count Singh you can try, whatever suits your fancy)

- vastly more attractive profiles next to "yet another dude with Rifle", few "odd one out" profiles with additional skills or equipment

 

I really like this game, its loads of fun and there are tons of variants. My overall goal is just to brainstorm for a bit how PanOs hundred and more viable List concepts, including REM spamm, dual TAG lists, 5 Man HI Links and whatnot could be even more. Which units could need something else than a different gun, you know, like the Swiss Guard who has 3 very unique and impressive profiles. At some point you see a profile and just wish it wasn't one more dude with a rifle or ask yourself why the MSR Black Friar needed to be a slightly worse version of the Nisse. Small things, unimportant, basically just a small distraction from the awesomeness that is the core game. A piece of equipment here, a Skill there - not to buff the faction as a whole but to give generic shotgundude 23 and his 3 friends next over a reason to leave the shelf once in a while.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't been playing pano for very long (two weeks?) but I've noticed a number of things that I think are cool, and a number that annoy me.

Not having regular smoke. I think it adds a little depth to how you play the faction. Smoke, when not well countered can be a bit of an easy button. The fact that pano has to muscle through a lot of situations that most factions can toss smoke on and avoid can be a big challenge, but also forces a player to think outside of the box. You need to deal with threats, instead of temporarily ignoring them. That being said, pano has the BS to deal with threats. You can definitely find units in most other factions that can compete with pano's firepower, but not as efficiently. Very few things can out shoot a regular or fusilier link team, without putting a huge number of points at risk.

The lack of smoke does mean that one of the major uses of MSV2 and 3 is almost never used by pano. If we look at the Hsien and Aquila Guard, we see very similar units. There are a couple of differences like the LT options that I know annoy many players. Fundamentally though, these two units are virtually identical, apart from faction specific bonuses. BS, CC, and WIP are all slightly different in the same way that differences can be seen across all of pano and yu jing. The MSV3 and 2 reflects pano's access to the best technology. The tinbot on the Hsien profile, I can't really explain. The difference in lieutenant options and the fact that the Hsien has +1SWC seems arbitrary in my mind. The most important difference though, is the cost. In this case, because Pano does not have smoke, the ability to use the MSV compared to the Hsien is inferior. The Hsien can be played with Shaolin Monks in vanilla or celestial guards with smoke grenade launchers in ISS. The Aquila can only benefit from firing through smoke on the active turn if the pano player can bait an opponent into laying down smoke cover. Yes, MSV3 has some bonuses, but not enough across the faction to make the Aquila cost more than the Hsien. In my opinion anyway. I see a good solution to this as a slight cost reduction in a number of msv units across pano, because they don't have access to smoke like most other factions do. As it is, he Swiss Guard is almost always a better option than the Aquila, while the same is not true of the Hac Tao and Hsien.

Other than that, I don't think having the Machinist or Trauma-Doc get a +1 to their WIP would be game breaking. In fact, I think it could be representative of the advanced training/equipment that they go through past basic Fusilier school.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Stiopa said:

Same story with Rao. For all his fluff he's basically a WIP14 Combi Bagh-Mari, that sees play either as a Lt. in fireteam in ASA, or as a cheap WIP14 Lt. in vanilla. He could use first a better weapon (MRifle or Vulcan Shotgun come to mind), and some unique profiles. @Errhile's idea of giving him Singh's CoC is nice, and I wouldn't mind seing an unlinkable profile with Infiltration. Stealth and/or Specialist Operative would be icing on cake. All this would make him more expensive, but also fun to play.

Singh on the other hand suffers from nerfing the AD+CoC combination, and same weak weapon loadout as Rao. Again, Errhile had a good idea of giving him Executive Order and better weapon (I'd say MRifle or Red Fury). It'd be enough to make him good, but not OP.

Actually, fluff-wise, I'd say Rao's Combi is the proper gun in proper hands fot the CoC guy. You want your CoC ready to step in the boots of a fallen Lt, not laying in a ditch with a bullet in his head already. He's there to command, let his HMG Bagh Mari team-mate do the shooting part.

As for Singh, I believe a Spitfire-class weapon, like a Red Fury, would be too much. Combi or MultiRifle is fine. Marksman rifle wouldn't be bad either (he's already well-equipped for short range combat with his Assault Pistol). I guesstimate he'd cost about 32/0,5 with a Combi and Executive Order then (and circa 36/0,5 with a MultiRifle). Which I consider to be about right.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems legit. Though I see no issue with having one profile with Combi/CoC and another without CoC but with stronger weapon. But I don't want to turn this thread into wishlist, so I won't elaborate on that beyond my first post.

1 hour ago, yoink101 said:

because Pano does not have smoke, the ability to use the MSV compared to the Hsien is inferior.

Actually I think that MSV3's automatic Discover success is one of the most undervalued abilities in the game.

1 hour ago, yoink101 said:

Other than that, I don't think having the Machinist or Trauma-Doc get a +1 to their WIP would be game breaking. In fact, I think it could be representative of the advanced training/equipment that they go through past basic Fusilier school.

I think this is covered by the Doctor/Engineer skills. Boosting their WIP wouldn't break the game, but it's not really necessary.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Stiopa said:

Actually I think that MSV3's automatic Discover success is one of the most undervalued abilities in the game.

It's fantastic. I don't think should count for as many points as the additional cc, martial arts, better LT options, and the ability to use smoke+msv2 on the active turn though.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Stiopa you're right some units are obvious Fireteam fillers. Here is a list of everything in PanO that isn't a LI and only got a Rifle or BSG without an alternative profile sporting the same basic weapon + some secondary weapon or piece of equipment. (And a special mention to the Kamau and Black Friar Snipers): 

Spoiler

logo_201.png Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png21  
logo_48.pngKAMAU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)

logo_2.pngAKAL COMMANDO Combi Rifle / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 22)
logo_2.pngAKAL COMMANDO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 21)
logo_43.pngCRUSADER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
logo_43.pngCRUSADER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_6.pngKNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 33)
logo_6.pngKNIGHT HOSPITALLER Combi Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 33)
logo_7.pngFATHER-KNIGHT Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 44)
logo_7.pngFATHER-KNIGHT Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 43)
logo_7.pngFATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 44)
logo_5.pngORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
logo_5.pngORC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 36)

3 SWC | 653 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Here is the same list for Yu Jing:

Spoiler

logo_201.png Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png1  
logo_7.pngDÀOFĚI Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 48)

0 SWC | 48 Points

Open in Infinity Army

And here for Haqq:

Spoiler

logo_401.png Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png1  
logo_7.pngRAGIK Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 25)

0 SWC | 25 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I hope I forgot something because this is what bothers me. Aquila MR, Croc Men and Kamau Sniper with X-Visor and Santiago Combi/BSG didn't even make that list. I'd run exactly one of the above profiles to get a BSG in a Hospitaler Link. The others don't really have a niche, they're just very expensive cheerleaders. Thing is you don't even miss these profiles because no one ever runs them for a reason. Its simply loads and loads of profiles so plain no one ever bothers to bring them. The very same profiles exist in Haqq and YJ, its just that every single last one of them gives you something secondary.

The general rule for generic rifle dudes always seems to be that they get access to (or already have) DTWs, grenades, SMGs, Panzerfausts, Smoke, Tinbots, Mines, E-Maulers, Blitzen, D-Charges and what not. PanO dude has his gun, so you don't take him and get the Multi Rifle or SWC guy instead. For PanO these extra pieces of equipment are very rare, so basically every basic dude is only relevent if you lack the points to run him as a Specialist or SWC weapon instead. In addition you don't even get Lt Profiles for the Linkable rifle guys, so if you want your LT to be a secondary Link piece you can't take a cheap body to hang back and live till turn 3. While guys with a shotty often can be Specialists in other factions (especially FOs with a 24" +3 ARO) PanO has to take rifles on specialists (aint half bad, 50% chance that means Multi Rifle). If you want a BSG you'll have to dedicate a guy to bring one and that guy will do jack besides from that.

Again as said before, you don't need to use a single of these profiles and PanO is perfectly competitive and viable without them, but they're more or less obsolete unless you need to really find 1-5 points at the end.

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

Again as said before, you don't need to use a single of these profiles and PanO is perfectly competitive and viable without them, but they're more or less obsolete unless you need to really find 1-5 points at the end.

To be fair I think this is why they exist, without them certain list builds wouldn't be possible. There are a few lists I've made or ran where I really just need a few extra points to cram a guy in to do something I want to do so I start looking for compromises and thats where these profiles help.

logo_103.png Military Orders
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png2  
logo_3.pngCRUSADER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
logo_10.pngFATHER-KNIGHT Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 44)

0 SWC | 70 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I've used these two in particular in lists, sometimes I've downgraded the crusader because I feel like I know he can still do damage with his high BS. Same with the Father Knight when I've used the SWC elsewhere and I'm not running Fusi lieutenant (his breaker pistol really comes on handy on the combi profile) The units themselves were still useful purely based on their good statlines but more importantly helped me to squeeze in that extra MSR or extra few specialist upgrades on my fireteam.

At the same time like you say some just do not get touched, like ever. And that's a problem across all factions. The Daofei boarding shotgun for example that you mentioned, never taken one, can never foresee taking one either :(

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Stiopa said:

Actually I think that MSV3's automatic Discover success is one of the most undervalued abilities in the game.

This. MSV3 is so much stronger than 2 even without the smoke-trick. Automatic discover and immunity to Suprise Shot\Attack on a powerful HI is great.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Teslarod: Sorry, but if I understand your criteria correctly:

  • No LIs
  • Armed only with Combi or BS
  • No alternative profile with the same weapon but also with additional weapon/skill/equipment

then that list should look like this for PanO:

logo_2.pngAKAL COMMANDO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 21)
logo_43.pngCRUSADER Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
logo_43.pngCRUSADER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_5.pngORC Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
logo_6.pngKNIGHT HOSPITALLER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 33)

Yu Jing:

logo_26.pngARAGOTO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)
logo_3.pngTIGER SOLDIER Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_4.pngZÚYǑNG Boarding Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0 | 26)
logo_7.pngDÀOFĚI Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 48)
logo_53.pngSHIKAMI Combi Rifle / Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 47)

Haqq isn't a fair comparison because they 1) use much more LIs and 2) use Rifle+LSG, not Combi, as default loadout. Nomads have maybe three units like this, but their units are designed as toolboxes and sport more toys.

2 hours ago, Teslarod said:

Aquila MR, Croc Men and Kamau Sniper with X-Visor and Santiago Combi/BSG didn't even make that list.

From that list I wouldn't use only Kamau sniper, and even that is mostly the result of what I've mentioned earlier - vanilla factions are bloated with units that have no function there, but shine or are at least useful in their sectorial. I believe Kamau sniper will be quite useful once we get to play Varuna army.

PanO is definitely more focused, which means that most of our units aren't as versatile as those in other factions. But most of them actually performs better in their assigned roles than their counterparts.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Teslarod said:

 

- below average WIP12-13 except for very few (and expensive) exceptions

I don't get it. It's basically just Fusilier, Auxilia and the Doc/Engie. You have 12 point specialists with 13 WIP.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like any faction I think you just want to cherry pick the best profiles, or more specifically the ones that are going to enable your game plan and list win-conditions the most efficiently.

It's a real shame about the no-smoke thing. Infinity is such a well-balanced (not perfectly) game, but as we know it pays the price of lacking a small amount of faction-diversity (a price I'm willing to live with) compared to some other systems. Giving PanO some form of smoke generation wouldn't be too overboard in my opinion. Perhaps it could go on an aux-bot and only be used via grenade launcher, but with low BS.

Even without smoke though, profiles like the Nisse HMG/sniper, Croc man, Swiss HMG, Auxilia FO, etc... and Krakot accessibility, give the faction its teeth imo. I only lament the fact that PanO overall feels like it has a higher proportion of less desirable profiles when compared with say, YuJing or Haqq. There are only a few things I don't really rate highly in YuJing but when it comes to PanO there are a lot more options that I feel don't make the cut (others have pointed out bipandra, Rao, teuton, etc, which I agree with).

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Stiopa no you got something wrong. Everything on the list is on the list for a reason. Aragoto are LI, Zuyong has dual Breaker Pistols as viable secondary weapon option, Shikami are Specialists (complaining about Specialists with rifles would be kinda mad). BSG Tigersoldier should be on the list, you're right there (probably a viable profile regardless, BS13 Mimetism AD, MT is a good platform to deliver a BSG)

Just one example so I we can understand what the other one is talking about:

You dropped the Orc Combi from the list for some reason, I think its one of the worst profiles possible and the perfect embodiment of what I mean. You'll just never take the guy. You want a Harris? HMG/Lt/Multirifle/AHD/BSG are the only realistic choices. The Combi doesn't serve any purpouse until someone gives them Fireteam Core in Varuna. Even then I'd rather take a second BSG/Multi. The profile serves no purpouse, its just kinda there if you run out of SWC and want so spend exactly 36 points on HI who can't frenzy. Then you'll probably scratch the list because its so bad you can do better. Heck even a basic Teuton wins a comparison against the Orc Combi.

10 hours ago, Loricus said:

I don't get it. It's basically just Fusilier, Auxilia and the Doc/Engie. You have 12 point specialists with 13 WIP.

...and Orcs (AHD), TAGs as well as Magisters. Also our Elite HI being WIP 13 rather than 14/15/16 (Haqq/CA). Our hackable and hacking troops get hit hard by the fact the have to face WIP 13-15. That part of the post was just a list though. Generic PanO stuff, no part complaint involved. Despite that the next time someone conveniently forgets that everyone and their mom either gets WIP13, is a REM with WIP13 anyway, forgets about Haqq, forgets about how many Orders Ariadna can spend on claiming objectives or actually thinks PanO's WIP isn't less then average I'm gonna find out if this forum has an ignore feature. Basic math and stuff, 60-65% still gets the job done.

@Vaulsc giving Smoke to the smokeless faction is the easiest but also the most boring solution that also won't happen.

Again - not trying to buff the faction, give it smoke or to hand out MSVs to everyone. Just asking if it would be so bad if the lackluster filler profiles could be as good as the Wu Ming CR+SMG once in a while. Who wouldn't like to pay less for a cheerleader to get SF with AP/Shock and a DTW out of it?

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of the problem in comparisons like Aquila to Hsien is how wildly overcosted our +1 BS is as soon as it pushes us past 13. Look at the ORC to see a particularly egregious example of this in action.

But an across-the-board discount on MSV 2 - 3 could be justified as well.

The absence of Eclipse Smoke options is a real puzzle, simply adding the Auxbot option to all the units which have one (so they can select between the H-Flamethrower or Eclipse LGL and Light Shotgun, at appropriate points costs) would be a good start, as would supplying the Teutons with them (to give them a slightly wider niche).

For me the real slap in the face was when Tohaa got handed a regular smoke unit...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd love to see a couple more irregular troops that Joan can take advantage of. It doesn't even have to be a bunch. Even just one or two bounty hunters would be cool

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Teslarod: You're right about Aragotos, IIRC they were MI before, but got switched into LI later on. As for AD troops I will argue that Boarding Shotgun is useful on each and every one of them (maybe stretching it with Ragik). And the poor ORC... I agree that Combi with no backup weapon is a weak loadout for a HI, but again - it's not a exclusive PanO feature. Zu Yong suffer from this as well. Same for Mobile Brigada.

That blandness was more widespread before, and it's only fairly recently that those interesting combinations started to show up more. we got some of the goods too, but I wouldn't expect all our HI to reach YJ level. Remember, that YJ was always HI powerhouse and their designs are supposed to be better optimized and equipped then ours. Even so in many cases it's a close call.

What's more with each refinement of ITS it's easier to field our TAGs, which really are top tier. 

We might have a different perspective, because I almost never play vanilla - I enjoy sectorials too much. Even when playing vanilla Aleph I play Vedic only. What's more in our meta 20x20 reigns supreme and ITS doesn't hold much traction. I might have a more relaxed approach to TAGs, HIs and Specialists because of this.

1 minute ago, yoink101 said:

I'd love to see a couple more irregular troops that Joan can take advantage of. It doesn't even have to be a bunch. Even just one or two bounty hunters would be cool

Well, we can always field ABH and Miranda, so there's that...

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Stiopa said:

Well, we can always field ABH and Miranda, so there's that...

Not in MO...Could you imagine a Link of Joan and De Fersen with magisters, fueled by enough cheap orders to have a second combat group that isn't worthless?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, yoink101 said:

Not in MO...Could you imagine a Link of Joan and De Fersen with magisters, fueled by enough cheap orders to have a second combat group that isn't worthless?

That would be awesome, but I doubt Bounty Hunters would fit the MO theme. Now, if we could get some light auxiliary units to provide screen for the knights assault... Militia of the Faith of Jesus Christ comes to mind...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, I'll still say the Aquila Guard is well worth its cost. The MSV still ignores most BS modifiers in the game which makes the HMG Aquila an amazing killing machine.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, Stiopa said:

What's more with each refinement of ITS it's easier to field our TAGs, which really are top tier. 

Yea it list with the "TAG" even won the last interplanetary.....

 

(I still would love to see Interplanetary statistics)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Stiopa said:

That blandness was more widespread before, and it's only fairly recently that those interesting combinations started to show up more. we got some of the goods too, but I wouldn't expect all our HI to reach YJ level. Remember, that YJ was always HI powerhouse and their designs are supposed to be better optimized and equipped then ours. Even so in many cases it's a close call.

This is very true. And recently PanO have been handed some great new toolboxy units in the Black Friar MULTI rifle and Locusts profiles. Heck in some cases I would still say some PanO HI profiles have it better than the Yu Jing ones. For example the Swiss Miss, on a B1 weapon you want the highest BS possible. Also the Swiss get to tote a light shotgun around for close quarters and run up the field and still do serious damage. The Hac Tac Miss only has a pistol and nanopulser unfortunately and with 1 less BS his role is kind of relegated to sitting back.

logo_101.png PanOceania
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png1  
logo_9.pngSWISS GUARD Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 69)

2 SWC | 69 Points

Open in Infinity Army

logo_201.png Yu Jing
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png1  
logo_8.pngHAC TAO Missile Launcher, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 65)

2 SWC | 65 Points

Open in Infinity Army

You do have to be careful how much you give to PanO though before you start treading on other factions toes too much.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So here's a question: accepting that PanOceania will probably not get warbands (They don't really suit the feel of the faction, and though warband remotes certainly seem flavourful to me, its not the crux of the question), would smoke grenades - regular ones, not Eclipse - be unbalanced within the faction, assuming a smoke chassis that is 20 or more points? So, for the purpose of this question, lets go with the hypothetical of all Teuton profiles getting smoke grenades for an extra 2 or so points, and a theoretical new unit in ASA (Let's go with a Ghurka one because Ghurkas are cool) with smoke grenades and a close assault profile (Martial Arts, close ranged weapons etc.) for around 20-25 points a pop. Would the addition of smoke grenades as a tactic available to the arsenals of those sectorials and to vanilla PanOceania actually unbalance things that much, considering availability and points costs?

 

47 minutes ago, The Invincible Army said:

This is very true. And recently PanO have been handed some great new toolboxy units in the Black Friar MULTI rifle and Locusts profiles. Heck in some cases I would still say some PanO HI profiles have it better than the Yu Jing ones. For example the Swiss Miss, on a B1 weapon you want the highest BS possible. Also the Swiss get to tote a light shotgun around for close quarters and run up the field and still do serious damage. The Hac Tac Miss only has a pistol and nanopulser unfortunately and with 1 less BS his role is kind of relegated to sitting back.

 

I dislike cross-faction comparisons a lot, but considering how similar the Hac Tao and Swiss Guard are, they're kind of inevitable. The thing that strikes me about them is not that the Hac Tao has more flexibility at the cost of less BS, but that there's a lot more Hac Tao profiles; more weapon options and toolbox profiles (Executive Order, KHD etc.). It always seemed strange that that was the case. Does the extra BS really make a Shotgun Swiss Guard an unreasonable proposition? A killer hacking device? (I always felt, that given that PanOceania has a tendency towards favouring the direct and aggressive response to things over flexibility and finesse, that the Killer Hacking Device would be a really popular tool for them, especially because it also ties into their secondary theme of using tech to make up for lack of raw skill - in this case the bonuses and focus of the KHD making up for their lack of WIP.).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, Counting_Kittens said:

would smoke grenades - regular ones, not Eclipse - be unbalanced within the faction, assuming a smoke chassis that is 20 or more points?

It might not. It might just allow playing styles that they don't want PanO to have.

It also might. At least take Mimetism off Nisse. Edit: or put him at or nearly 40 points with some bloat. Probably the better choice.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Counting_Kittens said:

So here's a question: accepting that PanOceania will probably not get warbands (They don't really suit the feel of the faction, and though warband remotes certainly seem flavourful to me, its not the crux of the question), would smoke grenades - regular ones, not Eclipse - be unbalanced within the faction, assuming a smoke chassis that is 20 or more points? So, for the purpose of this question, lets go with the hypothetical of all Teuton profiles getting smoke grenades for an extra 2 or so points, and a theoretical new unit in ASA (Let's go with a Ghurka one because Ghurkas are cool) with smoke grenades and a close assault profile (Martial Arts, close ranged weapons etc.) for around 20-25 points a pop. Would the addition of smoke grenades as a tactic available to the arsenals of those sectorials and to vanilla PanOceania actually unbalance things that much, considering availability and points costs?

Slight tangent but still viable to the question. I used to be a proponent of Pan'O having regular smoke. Really was all for it. Now, i say only eclipse smoke. Why?

Because i have fought against vanilla Pan'O with smoke access a bit to test that theory out.  Now granted, they were Yuan Yuan with the Merc rules engaged. So Pan'O could use AVA 4 Yuan Yuan. That was some of the most brutal AND one sided massacres i have ever been dealt. The amount of MSV 2 units he had combined with all that smoke meant that i had to hide completely every turn just so i wouldn't get massacred. That then allowed my opponent free reign of the board all game. With that supposedly trivial +1 BS from Pan'O, he was able to easily win nearly all the smoked up FtF rolls. We played 4 games just to test it out. The only objective points i was able to reliably get were classifieds or the occasional point for holding a quadrant from a hiding spot in total cover and turtling. The Aquila must have been high from the amount of smoke he was standing in all those games.

Now i know that this is Yuan Yuan compared to what you were saying with slightly more expensive options. But i felt that this tale from someone who was once on the side of Pan'O getting regular smoke and saw the terrible fate that awaited me should still be considered and not just laughed off or dismissed. Because as i said earlier, I believe now that Pan'O should get access to more eclipse smoke options on some cheaper profiles....... Just not regular smoke. Not anymore. That shite was a total nightmare and i don't want to go through that again.

30 minutes ago, Counting_Kittens said:

that the Killer Hacking Device would be a really popular tool for them, especially because it also ties into their secondary theme of using tech to make up for lack of raw skill - in this case the bonuses and focus of the KHD making up for their lack of WIP.).

I honestly have a feeling that the reason Pan'O suffers for KHD at the moment is because i feel that, that playstyle is more fluffy for Varuna and when Varuna comes out, you will see the KHD in more numbers on their sectorial troops.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now