Teslarod

PanO is good as it is - brainstorming reasonable adjustments

314 posts in this topic

Biotechvore has 8" deployment zones. What are you on about? :( 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, TDC said:

Please note what my reply was too...
That PanO would complain if they had wildcats instead... :) there was a reason for cross faction analysis.
Personally I think wildcats would compliment PanO/NCA better than bolts do for the reasons given. Not to say I don't like Bolts and want them to work...)

I agree with the draws for most of the things though... it's more personal preference for them... the thrust of it was I wouldn't complain about WC instead ;)

I know it was a reply, my remark about comparisons wasn't targeted at you. We're all prone to do this ;) 

As for Aquila vs. BF - the Aquila is much better shooter, much more durable, faster, and - and that's the biggest difference - enemy can't just try to sit the Discover out in hope of PanO WIP not being up for the task (let's say target is 12" away - 0 for range, -3 for cover, 50/50 chance). The Aquila will succeed at discovering, so the enemy is forced to react. For me it's things like this that make all the difference. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TDC Keep in mind that the Black Friar is a better mid field marker hunter (as that's his specialised role) but he doesn't have the BS and durability of an Aquila. (Who can also auto discover.) Not saying aquila trump Black friars in this, but they do it differently. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, IJW Wartrader said:

Biotechvore has 8" deployment zones. What are you on about? :( 

Sorry, wrong way around... :( 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Stiopa said:

Space Marines

If you really think about astertes as vanilla then go check some rules for them now ;P 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Stiopa said:

I know it was a reply, my remark about comparisons wasn't targeted at you. We're all prone to do this ;) |:) sorry

As for Aquila vs. BF - the Aquila is much better shooter, much more durable, faster, and - and that's the biggest difference - enemy can't just try to sit the Discover out in hope of PanO WIP not being up for the task (let's say target is 12" away - 0 for range, -3 for cover, 50/50 chance). The Aquila will succeed at discovering, so the enemy is forced to react. For me it's things like this that make all the difference. 

 

5 minutes ago, Razgriz said:

@TDC Keep in mind that the Black Friar is a better mid field marker hunter (as that's his specialised role) but he doesn't have the BS and durability of an Aquila. (Who can also auto discover.) Not saying aquila trump Black friars in this, but they do it differently. 

I agree with the forcing of discover and the aquila is better than the black friar (at twice the price)... but I don't find the Aquila MR to be of benefit in these situations to the HMG... and if I'm really worried about camo I'll take a AGHMG and a MRBF...

In fact I find it the opposite, losing burst and range really hurts the AGMR in my mind. 

Best of both worlds :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Eciu said:

If you really think about astertes as vanilla then go check some rules for them now ;P 

Don't wanna:nope:  There's a reason why I'm selling all my Wolves :P 

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@TDC @IJW Wartrader Can't you intuitive attack with Drop Bears?

 

I didn't mean to say Wildcats were worse. But they do have disadvantages, and if they were switched the disadvantages of Bolts would be played down and Wildcats would be played up.

If Corregidor had the same attitude Geckos would be considered unplayable, Intruders about 5 points too much, and Bandits as bad because of 12 WIP. Not to mention NO good Lt  option by PanO standards. And no impetuous order for Jaguar means no free smoke. Plus most of our CC is in the "useless but expensive" CC range of ~21 CC MA 2. I could go on. But the general community would think people petty for complaining about that because of all the good (even if not too unique) stuff we get, often on the very same troops with disadvantages.

 

Right now I don't think we could pick one link team over the other, it would be down to preference.

 

Things I'm envious of on Bolts:

They have drastically higher anti-tank capabilities. E/M gives them an instant "kill" against many power units at close range. Even more so from the MSR or ML.

They are better at long range. Their long range weapons are stronger (for more points) and cost less SWC. MSR is really really strong in a link. HRL is awesome but it loses a massive amount of to-wound chance compared to MSR against many targets, can't outrange HMG, and can get outranged if I use the link for ARO.

A type of mine. I love mines. A lot. I take a solo Muyib with Viral mines. I take Combi Bandit for mines. I take Fiday with mines. I really like them.

Veteran link would come up for me a lot. Nomads have a big Lt. problem. Alguacillies cost 1 SWC. Veteran not only retain their orders, but can spend their orders on the link without breaking it. Wildcats often freeze for 1/3 of the game because of that. Maybe it's less of an advantage with Fusilier Lt. but I would use it.

Winning at CQB. Wildcats hold ground in CQB with DTW. This means the enemy can choose to risk/sacrifice to get past. They don't win they just make you lose too. There are advantages and disadvantages to this.

Regular Hacking Device. I like Assault as well but I was a bit sad to lose HD on Cats right when it got really useful. It not only gives Bolts a specialist and SS2 hacker like on Wildcat, it fills the requirement for supportware, saving a lot of points by not needed a unit just for that. I'm on record praising Brigada for this so I'm not making it up for Bolts.

 

There are a ton of things I like on Wildcats as well. I wouldn't trade them. But I think saying Bolts don't have any advantages is dishonest.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Loricus said:

Can't you intuitive attack with Drop Bears?

Not in the same way.

Intuitive attack LF vs camo. WIP test and they are hit.
Intuitive attack DB vs camo. WIP test and a mine is laid.

If the camo marker hits back, it's a F2F with the WIP test for the flamer... I'm not sure about the DB.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, TDC said:

Not in the same way.

Intuitive attack LF vs camo. WIP test and they are hit.
Intuitive attack DB vs camo. WIP test and a mine is laid.

If the camo marker hits back, it's a F2F with the WIP test for the flamer... I'm not sure about the DB.

It's not F2F because you are around a corner, possibly 15" away (instead of 8). Not that it ever comes up for me, at that range Discover+Shoot is what I go for. I think my meta has far fewer camo than most though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Stiopa said:

@Teslarod: Zu Yong suffer from this as well. Same for Mobile Brigada.

That blandness was more widespread before, and it's only fairly recently that those interesting combinations started to show up more. we got some of the goods too, but I wouldn't expect all our HI to reach YJ level. Remember, that YJ was always HI powerhouse and their designs are supposed to be better optimized and equipped then ours. Even so in many cases it's a close call.

Zuyong gets Kinematika and dual Breaker Pistols for 27, and the Mobile Brigada Combi at least has courage and the optional Tinbot L2 for 34/37. Orc combi is a friggin dude with a rifle for 36. That my only complaint. A. Dude. With. A. Rifle. No freakin' utility whatsoever, nor a choice in the matter. The upgrade options usually involve improving the Rifle into a HMG or Multirifle. All I want is a utility profile instead or heck even in addition. I'm not complaining the profile is there, I'm lamenting the absence of a cheap utility upgrade for the most basic profiles. What I'd really like to see happen as well is a 1-2 point drop in pricing for bloating stats that don't compliment the profile in 90% of all cases (Konstantinos, Bipandra, Kamau, Santiagos, Order Sergeants). There are things that are worth more than each part on its own, like a BSG FO, really great profiles. Then there are Bipandra's and Kontantinos stat upgrades you'll almost never get to use but pay for for in full

@IJW Wartrader I used to play low tier points at the beginning. Since RNG is a thing I really dislike anything short of 300 points simply to throw more dice to compensate for extremes in distribution overall. To be brutally honest I don't think playing against 3 Posthumans and 3 Netrods at 150 points is a very fun thing to do for reasons that should be painfully obvious and simply cease to exist at 300 points (linear components in non linear environment n' stuff).

Usual reminder, the game as a whole, the faction as a whole and the sectorials are all fine. No reason to start looking for me being hyperbole :_crying__rvmp_by_bad_blood:. Also a reminder that opponents can run very experimental or simply bad lists. If you can give a gunplatform a linear improvement and you lose zero utility by doing so, the profile might just be subpar on paper. It also might just be subpar in general. Best case you'll take exactly one of these profiles because you decide you want other stuff so bad that you settle for it.

Someone said "Crusader Combi is a good profile look at the Hellcat same thing there". Looking at the Hellcat example sure you can take the Combi, but you can also take a Combi+AHGL/Combi+depl.Repeater if you have a spare point and 0.5 SWC. Thats all I'd like to see. Something to go with dude+rifle.

 

Hm I might have poked the bear here, wasn't this lively since @Daboarder published his HI/TAG guides :huh:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

Someone said "Crusader Combi is a good profile look at the Hellcat same thing there". Looking at the Hellcat example sure you can take the Combi, but you can also take a Combi+AHGL/Combi+depl.Repeater if you have a spare point and 0.5 SWC. Thats all I'd like to see. Something to go with dude+rifle.

That's sort of Nomads' thing. We move slow but have better toolkits. That's our Doctor Plus.

Edit: Hold up Akalis get e/mitter and Brethren get a MULTI and a DTW.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Loricus said:

That's sort of Nomads' thing. We move slow but have better toolkits. That's our Doctor Plus.

No its not, YJ, Aleph and Haqq all get the same treatment. There aren't really any "guy with rifle" profiles outside of LI or they have 2 profiles, one for the plain rifle guy and one for the same guy+extra stuff for 1 or two points. More often than not they even have additional equipment on the trooper template and then the rifle guy gets one more tool to bring anyway (Tinbot, Grenades, Blitzen, Panzerfaust....).

 

Aquila HMG is better than the MR in 8-16 vs LI, 65% to 61%, the MR starts winning against ARM 4+ or if it can utilize Shock. The MR gets utterly obliterated as soon as anything you really want your Aquila to take care of early (ARO Pieces like TO Snipers) shows up. So while the HMG doesn't suck against targets in 8-32" the MR can only cover 0-16" properly, which I'd probably leave to something cheaper. Aquilas are probably our best choice to pick a firelane and simply push through it because we want to.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would just like to point out there are some PanO HI who get nice little utility pieces sprinkled on them too, like the Father Knight. Every FK has a breaker pistol, that's a nice thing to have on a guy like him who likes to be up close he's a great HI option in both vanilla.and MO.

Also don't forget all Zu Yong profiles have been designed with a future fireteam core in mind. Zu Yong also pay for things like kinematika and breaker pistols by having below average HI PH and ARM. (PH12 and ARM 3 respectively)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

No its not, YJ, Aleph and Haqq all get the same treatment. There aren't really any "guy with rifle" profiles outside of LI or they have 2 profiles, one for the plain rifle guy and one for the same guy+extra stuff for 1 or two points. More often than not they even have additional equipment on the trooper template and then the rifle guy gets one more tool to bring anyway (Tinbot, Grenades, Blitzen, Panzerfaust....).

How is PanO not the same way? Almost none have no skills or equipment past a standard gun.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, The Invincible Army said:

Would just like to point out there are some PanO HI who get nice little utility pieces sprinkled on them too, like the Father Knight. Every FK has a breaker pistol, that's a nice thing to have on a guy like him who likes to be up close he's a great HI option in both vanilla.and MO.

Also don't forget all Zu Yong profiles have been designed with a future fireteam core in mind. Zu Yong also pay for things like kinematika and breaker pistols by having below average HI PH and ARM. (PH12 and ARM 3 respectively)

Orcs already have a Fireteam option and no one seemed to give a damn about optimizing their profiles for being a gunplatform. PH14 on something that will only ever use it for dodging. The breaker Pistol is a nice sprinkle, 2 would actually see some use, apart from giving a 8" +3 ARO I don't see much use for them on something that either has a BSG or wants to sit at a corner in SF in reactive. I agree that the AHD FK is amazing, the Spitfire is a good candidate for an agressive Lt and the Duo profile is at least interesting in Vanilla. The other profiles would be useful if they had MRs or could link. The one profile I'd really bring is probably the AHD as a budget Swiss.

30 minutes ago, Loricus said:

How is PanO not the same way? Almost none have no skills or equipment past a standard gun.

Crusader, Akalis, Hospitalers, Orcs, Kamaus. Other than a few rare exception like MR Black Friar, Orc Tinbot, FK AHD with D-Charges and Kamau LGL(and MSR lol) with X-Visor, PanO doesn't get single profiles with additional equipment especially not for the basic profiles. And why someone thinks that is a good thing to have as a faction feature when we already have high tech gear, good BS, no Smoke, low WIP and no Warbands still is the thing I fail to grasp in this discussion.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having really tried to make the MULTI Rifle Aquila work, it simply isn't delivering the same efficacy compared to other units you can get for the points.

That's sort of the crux of this discussion.  Nothing is bad.  It can all work.  But that doesn't mean it's performing at a level that it could or should. 

A quick point about PanO MSV units.  I don't think smoke is critical or mandatory.  But why is PanO paying the same cost for it as other factions, while being clearly unable to use half of its intended function?  Yes, PanO can Discover or shoot targets with negative modifiers without penalty.  But part of MSV2+ is also being able to shoot through smoke.  Yes, you can shoot through enemy smoke, but units aren't costed according to what your enemy might bring.

So if the Hsien shoots almost as well as the Aquila, and also gets several additional profiles and points of utility (direct template weapon, Martial Arts, Stealth) to help make them comparable... Why does the Hsien also get ultra-cheap smoke access and the ability to gunfight through it, without seeing an increase in cost?

You might say that the cost of the smoke trick is encompassed in the cost of the unit that's providing the smoke... But Shaolin are incredibly cheap and are providing additional benefits beyond smoke.  So are Kuang Shi controllers, since they're a prerequisite for taking Kuang Shi. 

So I don't mind PanO not getting smoke, but I do mind paying the same cost as other factions when we can only use roughly half of the equipment's capability.

 

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Barakiel I can almost hear someone already typing that high BS MSV2 Troops for 30+ points make 5 point Warbands useless...

As it stands I still don't think making PanO visors cheaper is a good solution, that would make them unbalanced at least vs Steel Phalanx. Costs should stay the same, just add something minor to the really bad profiles that are horribly optimised. Sensor, an X-Visor, Marksmanship L2 to make the MR compete by not costing SWC for a viable weapon or useful skill.

Actually... I'd pay 65 points and 2 SWC for an Aquila with MSR+MR, representing a really nice top tier Multi weapon, now that would be a really unique profile befitting PanO.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Barakiel the Aquila does still have extra BS and surprise shot/attack immunity against camo/TO Camo users though. Especially on more elite camo units or users this can be a big swing in BS.

Just for a simple example a BS 11 camo skirmisher in cover surprise shotting a Hsien HMG within 16" with a rifle is bringing the Hsien's BS down to 8. The Aquila however sits there on a lovely BS 12 from cover and that's it. That's quite a significant swing of +4 BS. When the suppression kicks in the Aquila is a monster for holding a position.

Hsien might be better in the active turn with smoke and stealth (which costs regular orders in ISS, maybe not vanilla) but the Aquila is superior in the reactive turn IMO.

EDIT: Btw I know using camo or TO camo against MSV user isn't optimal or a great idea, but sometimes it happens to try and bring BS down or because there few other option Turn 2/3 of a game after some casualties, so it does happen sometimes. Especially if they are trying to work range bands

Edited by The Invincible Army
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the Bolts vs Wildcats - I just played a game with my Phalanx against Corregidor with a Wildcat link. They certainly could hold their ground, and flamethrowers made me extra cautious with my Myrmidons and Penthesilea, but I hate to think how it would look against Bolts, which would leave a minefield around the center objective. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Teslarod said:

Zuyong gets Kinematika and dual Breaker Pistols for 27, and the Mobile Brigada Combi at least has courage and the optional Tinbot L2 for 34/37. Orc combi is a friggin dude with a rifle for 36. That my only complaint. A. Dude. With. A. Rifle. No freakin' utility whatsoever, nor a choice in the matter. The upgrade options usually involve improving the Rifle into a HMG or Multirifle. All I want is a utility profile instead or heck even in addition. I'm not complaining the profile is there, I'm lamenting the absence of a cheap utility upgrade for the most basic profiles.

I think this might be a good moment to step back and look at things from a wider perspective.

Instead of concentrating on individual unit options, look at the effects on list-building. As a broad (over)generalisation, other factions have to choose between armament or utility. So PanOceania will (again as a generalisation) have a force that has more expensive troopers that have roughly equal utility while being more heavily armed.

To me, that fits the background of PanOceania as the rich hyperpower. 

 

Quote

@IJW Wartrader I used to play low tier points at the beginning. Since RNG is a thing I really dislike anything short of 300 points simply to throw more dice to compensate for extremes in distribution overall.

We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Drastically. You can't make universal judgements on unit options based purely on 300pt ITS missions (never mind that that's a constantly moving target anyway) while ignoring other ways that the game is played.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

I think this might be a good moment to step back and look at things from a wider perspective.

Instead of concentrating on individual unit options, look at the effects on list-building. As a broad (over)generalisation, other factions have to choose between armament or utility. So PanOceania will (again as a generalisation) have a force that has more expensive troopers that have roughly equal utility while being more heavily armed.

To me, that fits the background of PanOceania as the rich hyperpower. 

And to go further, especially bringing the fluff into, PanO doesn't have to worry, really, about fixing or saving anything.  If it breaks, buy a new one.  If the soldier dies, recover the Cube and his insurance policy picks up the tab.  If this one particular regiment doesn't get the job done, bring in another one, rather than spend time cross training.  And trust in weapons to do the job first and foremost.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@IJW Wartrader @A Mão Esquerda

the core idea of this entire thread is this one: PanO is good as it is - brainstorming reasonable adjustments

Let me rephrase that: would it be so fucking horrible to grant the entire faction 5 additional profiles with a minor piece of additional equipment? Because for some reason people are trying to convince me otherwise with arguments like "No thats not PanO, it's more fluffy this way" is a relevant argument against grenades in general on soldiers in general and I'm starting to lose hope in reason over here.

We're still talking about wishful thinking and brainstorming, so would it be reasonable to get a few dudes with rifles and grenades?

Or am I really out of my fucking mind for suggesting this might actually not be broken and could be a good addition to the faction as a whole?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Teslarod said:

Crusader, Akalis, Hospitalers, Orcs, Kamaus. Other than a few rare exception like MR Black Friar, Orc Tinbot, FK AHD with D-Charges and Kamau LGL(and MSR lol) with X-Visor, PanO doesn't get single profiles with additional equipment especially not for the basic profiles. And why someone thinks that is a good thing to have as a faction feature when we already have high tech gear, good BS, no Smoke, low WIP and no Warbands still is the thing I fail to grasp in this discussion.

Why does E/Mitter or MULTI+LFT not count as special equipment profiles but Breaker Pistols does.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

9 minutes ago, Loricus said:

Why does E/Mitter or MULTI+LFT not count as special equipment profiles but Breaker Pistols does.

This is actually a point for Teslarod, as if I only have two bonus points I prefer to take Akal with E/Mitter over the standard Combi one.

18 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

@IJW Wartrader @A Mão Esquerda

the core idea of this entire thread is this one: PanO is good as it is - brainstorming reasonable adjustments

Let me rephrase that: would it be so fucking horrible to grant the entire faction 5 additional profiles with a minor piece of additional equipment? Because for some reason people are trying to convince me otherwise with arguments like "No thats not PanO, it's more fluffy this way" is a relevant argument against grenades in general on soldiers in general and I'm starting to lose hope in reason over here.

We're still talking about wishful thinking and brainstorming, so would it be reasonable to get a few dudes with rifles and grenades?

Or am I really out of my fucking mind for suggesting this might actually not be broken and could be a good addition to the faction as a whole?

A minor change here and there most likely wouldn't break anything, but might influence balance in a way CB doesn't want it to. Not being a part of playtesting I can only trust in the playtesters ability to balance things out, point out things that might be overlooked, and aside from that accept the current state of the game and enjoy. Trying to point out the places where it diverges from what I believe is military 101 and common sense, like the scarcity of grenades, would be only frustrating, as Infinity simply isn't constructed this way.

So I believe it's best to accept the limitations imposed on faction and look how to counter them through list construction and tactics instead of asking for rebalance. In some cases this will of course end with units landing on shelf until better times, but from what I read on the forums those units vary from person to person. This indicates it's a matter of personal preference instead of a balance issue.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now