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Bobman

Totally CRIT

18 posts in this topic

I'm listening to #24. You have a great podcast. This is the best miniatures etiquette discussion I've ever heard because you go into detail. Etiquette is specific.

Personally I point out AROs for opponents (the rules tell you to). I remind opponents of things like "there's a Hacker there" "that guy's actually prone" (In some cases). But I also strictly adjudicate 1/3 of a model being in cover, not being able to make it to a target by a millimeter, etc. The state of the table should be represented clearly. Declaring intent helps this.

I don't mind if my opponent doesn't remind me about problems I might encounter because I learn better that way. I make the same mistakes less than I used to. But the good players I play against, nearly all of them, are also very clear about what they are doing and what their intent is. They don't intentionally obfuscate anything. They are careful about making sure they put out the tokens they're supposed to. They keep good track of their order pool.

I can't stand it when an opponent flies through a game and I have to be my own advocate on every order. "That's the wrong burst value." "Hang on. I have an ARO." "How many orders did you spend just then?" I can't stand it when clarity is comprised because of bad etiquette.

I don't mind gamesmanship like pretending you have Hidden Deployment. That to me is cleverness and bluffing, not lying or cheating.

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Glad to hear you like it. Thanks for the compliments.

Out of the heat of the moment I do understand that people have different views on it. When actually playing sometimes I forget that and expect people to be as cool about things as I want to be. Trouble is Infinity can be such a fine line that if you're both not aware if each other's play style it can be a vastly different game imo.

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Thousand percent behind Bobman's way of thinking on this etiquette thing.. I've never had a nasty game of Infinity and I wondered where the worry was that an influx of players might jeopardise the tone of our game.

After this episode I can picture pretty clearly what that bad game will look like though. :(

 

No hate, but to the host advocating the other point of view: There's a way to play the Gotcha Infinity you're looking to play: it's called Shasvaasti/Hidden Deployment.

Intent > All.

 

Edit: Thanks so much for the amazing podcast though guys! And thanks for stepping up to the plate on this hottest-of-topics, it's fascinating and enlightening to hear such experienced players debating this issue.

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Thanks!

To be clear I've never had a 'bad' game, even at events. I've had a few dubious moments, some pushing the boundaries (opening an army builder mid game!), but nothing that's dampened my experience overall.

Clearly I have some strong views on the subject and while there are several reasons I feel people 'should' play an open game, time being a big one, that doesn't mean they 'have' to. I can forget that and in the heat of the moment sometimes that makes me grumpy.

Glad you like the episode. I knew this would be opening the proverbial can.

Please like us on FB where we share more of our exploits.

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I just listened to the episode, and I think it´s great that you can have a discussion where you aren´t agreeing, but I feel like at times you´re talking past each other even when it might seem like you hold similiar views. Interesting discussion though! I think it is indeed a very difficult matter to discuss, as sometimes it´s hard to determine what´s down to sportsmanship versus actually having a competition. I usually play it like this: When asked, I disclose the information my opponent is asking for, and when I can clearly guess what his intent is, I´ll fill in the blanks if he seems to have missed something. However, if I see what he´s doing and I can see that there are better ways to do it, I might give that information after the game, as to not play the game for him.

For example, I had an opponent once spend a couple orders moving his smoke throwing unit towards his MSV 2 HMG modell, clearly looking to improve his odds of engaging my 5-man fire team on the other side, thinking he´d get another -6 on the roll. Seeing this up front, I offered the information that using smoke + msv2 doesn´t actually work because of Sixth sense lvl 2 that the fire team is granted, so he changed plans. Because he´s a good chap he didn´t take any of the orders back, but I nipped the situation in the bud so to speak to avoid having to explain how he´d just wasted 3-4 orders only to have his plan fail and his premium trooper dead because he didn´t know / think about the finer details of fire team rules. What he could have done though, was to cautious move a flamethrower piece to just avoid the fire team completely, spend an order to get into a good position and just burn them anyhow. However, I can totally see that I´m in no way obliged to give this information, and if I wasn´t 99% about his intention, I might have just not said anything. I just feel like the important thing is to avoid situations where NOT telling my opponent about certain things will completely ruin his experience of the game, thus making it less fun for the both of us. However, it´s not my responsibility to remind my opponent of basic rules, even though I might casually mention it after the game to foster a friendly, but competetive playing environment.

This also depends on the opponent though; If I´m playing on the top table vs a really good opponent, I´d probably not say anything in the previous situation because I expect him to know better! He might also have ulterior motives that I´m not aware of, so it would be kinda, I don´t know, impudent to comment on it? It´s also an easy fix to just state your playstyle before the game starts; I find that it´s not really the act of "Gotcha" Infinity it self that I dislike, it´s having my premade assumptions being broken midgame. Having the "If you had just made it clear that this was the way it was gonna be, I hadn´t done X, Y and Z earlier and would have punished you for This and That" thoughts for the rest of the game, poisoning the experience. Doesn´t mean that the other guy is hostile, or a douche, or anything like that; He just had very clear thoughts about how the game works, and they differed from mine.

Also, people who make an effort to obscure orders, combat groups and such, are total dicks. You should assume that this sort of information, in a perfect world, would be crystal clear. There are things in this game that are made difficult because we are playing a table top miniature game instead of a computer game, but we should all strive to keep those things as clear as possible.

Sorry for the long rant, thanks for the podcast!

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5 hours ago, Ligerusjon said:

I just listened to the episode, and I think it´s great that you can have a discussion where you aren´t agreeing, but I feel like at times you´re talking past each other even when it might seem like you hold similiar views. Interesting discussion though! I think it is indeed a very difficult matter to discuss, as sometimes it´s hard to determine what´s down to sportsmanship versus actually having a competition. I usually play it like this: When asked, I disclose the information my opponent is asking for, and when I can clearly guess what his intent is, I´ll fill in the blanks if he seems to have missed something. However, if I see what he´s doing and I can see that there are better ways to do it, I might give that information after the game, as to not play the game for him.

For example, I had an opponent once spend a couple orders moving his smoke throwing unit towards his MSV 2 HMG modell, clearly looking to improve his odds of engaging my 5-man fire team on the other side, thinking he´d get another -6 on the roll. Seeing this up front, I offered the information that using smoke + msv2 doesn´t actually work because of Sixth sense lvl 2 that the fire team is granted, so he changed plans. Because he´s a good chap he didn´t take any of the orders back, but I nipped the situation in the bud so to speak to avoid having to explain how he´d just wasted 3-4 orders only to have his plan fail and his premium trooper dead because he didn´t know / think about the finer details of fire team rules. What he could have done though, was to cautious move a flamethrower piece to just avoid the fire team completely, spend an order to get into a good position and just burn them anyhow. However, I can totally see that I´m in no way obliged to give this information, and if I wasn´t 99% about his intention, I might have just not said anything. I just feel like the important thing is to avoid situations where NOT telling my opponent about certain things will completely ruin his experience of the game, thus making it less fun for the both of us. However, it´s not my responsibility to remind my opponent of basic rules, even though I might casually mention it after the game to foster a friendly, but competetive playing environment.

This also depends on the opponent though; If I´m playing on the top table vs a really good opponent, I´d probably not say anything in the previous situation because I expect him to know better! He might also have ulterior motives that I´m not aware of, so it would be kinda, I don´t know, impudent to comment on it? It´s also an easy fix to just state your playstyle before the game starts; I find that it´s not really the act of "Gotcha" Infinity it self that I dislike, it´s having my premade assumptions being broken midgame. Having the "If you had just made it clear that this was the way it was gonna be, I hadn´t done X, Y and Z earlier and would have punished you for This and That" thoughts for the rest of the game, poisoning the experience. Doesn´t mean that the other guy is hostile, or a douche, or anything like that; He just had very clear thoughts about how the game works, and they differed from mine.

Also, people who make an effort to obscure orders, combat groups and such, are total dicks. You should assume that this sort of information, in a perfect world, would be crystal clear. There are things in this game that are made difficult because we are playing a table top miniature game instead of a computer game, but we should all strive to keep those things as clear as possible.

Sorry for the long rant, thanks for the podcast!

First off thanks for listening. 

On your first point I think we have improved over the episodes, our earlier ones are much the same. This one in particular maybe suffered as it was a contentious subject and I can get very emotional when discussing these things. I hope this didn't detract too much though.

Secondly you are a scholar sir, as you have described my feelings on the matter almost perfectly using some examples I'm sure have actually happened to me.

Hopefully if anything we've made a few people think about some of the unspoken aspects of Infinity. I know the discussion had an impact on my views for sure.

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I've observed an etiquette-rules issue that's been coming up fairly frequently. Partial Cover requires 1/3 of the base and the silhouette to be obscured. I've noticed that people are very liberal about taking cover with their models and giving cover for opponents' models. I'm more strict than most people. I never argue, but I will tell people when they're moving that if they intend to be in cover they should move back a bit, and I often surprise opponents when I say "I don't think I have cover." It's a measurement issue I try to keep in mind more than most people I play, I find. It's not about getting an advantage on anyone. I realize some of this liberal cover granting might come from 2nd edition rules.

Is anyone else having this experience?

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Cover

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I tend or give cover if its borderline, but I'm not above disallowing cover if I think it isn't there. It's not a huge issue in our meta.

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Very new to Infinity and found the podcast recently and very much appreciate you guys taking on the subject of etiquette.

It's an important one because I've already signed up for my first tournament in a couple of months so I want to make sure I'm not the guy doing everything 'wrong' because I don't know any better.  I can obviously learn the rules and practice playing to time limits but knowing what's expected in terms of etiquette is also important.

It did come as a bit of a shock to me I must say.  I'm firmly in the camp of answering all questions about open information honestly and even to the point of answering the question they meant to ask rather than the one they did.  So for example the question "Can that guy see me if I move here?" would get the response "No, but, this guy could".  However if someone moves a model and misses the fact that I have an ARO to it then I'm going to ARO them.  I'm not going to be saying "You might not want to do that because I'll get a shot at you" and a response of "Well I wouldn't have done that if you can see me." is not going to get me to allow them to 'take it back'.  Infinity is a reasonably complex game but there isn't that much you need to remember from turn to turn.  If my opponent deploys a model in the deployment phase, tells me what it is and what I'm allowed to know about it then that is good enough.  If that model does nothing for 3 turns and I blunder into it's LOS on turn 3 because I forgot about it then that is my fault.  I do not expect to be reminded it's there before I make my move.  

I guess the only thing I will say is that whilst it appears I'm on the more 'gotcha' or 'aggressive' side of the argument I apply my standards to everyone.  I don't expect to be spoon fed information or to ever be allowed to take anything back.  I don't see why I should play the game for my opponents or allow them to correct errors of judgement either.  

I'm certainly not saying my way of playing the game is better than the other approach but I am slightly concerned now that it's an approach that is frowned upon when playing Infinity.  I'm talking tournament Infinity here not a random club game.

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The reality is what defines 'gotcha' play, for want of a better word is difficult to quantify. Not least because it will mean something different to each of us. The reason why I feel it can be such a touchy subject is it can skew our views on fairness of a game, which can lead to high emotions. Much like the issue of timings and games cut short.

Personally I find my interpretation can change so that ill defined line is not even a straight one. I may feel hard done by and react or sometimes in a effort to play an 'honest' game I become too lenient. Depending on your point of view each as bad as the other.

At the end of the day the best thing we can do is uphold ourselves to our own ideals and remember that it probably isn't worth it to get too heated over a game, but that doesn't mean me can't fight our corner in a rationale manner.

In short, Be excellent to each other.

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This podcast continues to be so great. Excellent knowledge of and opinions on the game.

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On 04/05/2017 at 2:00 AM, Whale said:

This podcast continues to be so great. Excellent knowledge of and opinions on the game.

Many thanks!

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Masters review after which we discuss list entries for the competition.

#32

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Awesome episodes lately. Keep them coming.

Did one of you mention that you make battle report videos? Where could I find those? Thanks.

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