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Albi86

Are direct templates unconstitutional?

42 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

I had this come up in a game a few months back. Bike moves down, guy one shoots, guy 2 dodges, motorbike chain rifles. The only time guy 1 can see the bike is when the bike cant see guy 2. Dice are rolled, guy 1 kills the bike, guy 2 fails dodge and eats the chain rifle. There is no way this sequence should have happened because if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2, but because of the way templates are resolved this is a perfectly fine situation. Before you say the bike carried through long enough to make the shot, he was hit by a panzerfaust and failed all 3 saves, so not much left there.

 

Example problem.png

This isn't anything to do with DTWs though, it could have used any BS Weapon against guy 2 with the same outcome. 

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18 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

I had this come up in a game a few months back. Bike moves down, guy one shoots, guy 2 dodges, motorbike chain rifles. The only time guy 1 can see the bike is when the bike cant see guy 2. Dice are rolled, guy 1 kills the bike, guy 2 fails dodge and eats the chain rifle. There is no way this sequence should have happened because if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2, but because of the way templates are resolved this is a perfectly fine situation.

Your statement "if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2" is simply false according to the rules.

From the Move skill, among the places where this concept is stated:

IMPORTANT!
Once declared, troopers always reach the end of their Movement, even if they fall into a Null or Immobilized state due to successful enemy Attacksalong the way.

So what point are you trying to make?

 

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22 hours ago, Albi86 said:

ARO and FtF rolls are a core mechanic of Infinity, so to say part of the "constitution" of the game.

If Ortega shoots Angus with its combi and Angus shoots back, the battle of intents will be resolved with a FtF roll.

Let's say that both hit but Angus prevails. This would symbolize that f.x. Angus was faster, so Ortega was shot before completing his action (e.g. while moving, since everything that happens in an order is simultaneous).

Now, if Ortega had a flamethrower, even if the situation is still the same, the resolution would be quite different. If Ortega had to move to get in range before flaming, the lack of FtF denies the possibility that Angus shot Ortega while approaching, which is a core mechanic of the game. It also collides with the concept of simultaneous resolution of the order, since it implies that Angus cannot do anything to prevent or before Ortega flames, he can only act in response to that.

I'll make a concrete example:

[...]

Am I the only one seeing this?

The Normal Roll has been a part of the game since before there was a printed rulebook.  flamethrowers and chain rifles have been in the game since the 2006 Quick Start pamphlet, with exactly the same interaction as they have today.  Flame/chainrifle someone, and they get a normal roll to do whatever (dodge or shoot you).

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I would argue that thing that are and exception to "core rules" are a mainstay.

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As a guy with a whole heap of ODD at my disposal, you /want/ there to be a way around my modifiers. And MSV is rarely the most feasible answer to that problem. (See Lhost podcast episode 5) Thus, DTWs.

Additionally what would Haqq be without this function? Piece trading cheap flamers and forcing dodges is their shtick.

USARF infiltrating flamer grunts; a lot less cool if they rock up point blank with B1 rifles for ARO. A quick sensor sweep and all they did was waste points. The flamers make opponents play differently precisely because they can't just weight-of-dice their way through it.

I can't imagine the havoc Kusanagi would wreak were there no simple answer to her ODD Spitfire!

 

Tl;Dr Nawh, it's perfectly constitutional. Diversity and complexity make this game what it is and were DTWs to function differently, many different factions and playstyles would be brutally neutered.

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On 15/03/2017 at 8:24 AM, Zedaej said:

As a guy with a whole heap of ODD at my disposal, you /want/ there to be a way around my modifiers. And MSV is rarely the most feasible answer to that problem. (See Lhost podcast episode 5) Thus, DTWs.

I'm a new player and had a game last night that completely validated this statement and the others like it in this thread.

My opponent had Kusunagi in partial cover on Suppressive fire imposing a -12 BS modifier on my active turn right on top of an objective. No MSV on my team so I spent three orders with a Cutter in a similar position trying to shoot her with no success, although I passed all my armor rolls. It was a complete standstill right in the middle of the game table and it was actually really unfun for us both since nothing was happening on either side.

Then I remembered I had a light grenade launcher on a kamau and started speculative firing. I didn't kill her but I took her out of suppression. It really hammered home that the game needs weapon options that ignore modifiers (and to an extent FtF rolls) or else the system potentially leads to these grinding deadlocks.

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All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

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On 14 marzec 2017 at 10:55 PM, fool's idol said:

Ko Dali and 3 Tiger Soldiers on your backfield!

Never forget.

Jy9FtiG.jpg

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12 hours ago, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

I was going to chime in with this but was apparently beaten to the punch. 

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14 hours ago, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

EMarat - also banned due to Cube deactivation.

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That gif of Interruptor stone cold shooting Bostria never gets old

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On 3/14/2017 at 3:55 PM, fool's idol said:

Ko Dali and 3 Tiger Soldiers on your backfield!

I'm so sad I never got around to running that list...:rain-cloud::_crying__rvmp_by_bad_blood:

 

On 3/20/2017 at 5:56 AM, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

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3 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

Bah, flamethrowers could start uncontrolled fires, that wont do in the Emperor's garden!  Turn wayward foliage in to grey sludge (easy to clean, fresh pine scent) with a nanopulser instead.  Yup, no other use for them, Crane Agents and Hsien Warriors have them for maintaining the Imperial gardens and nothing else!

And Chain Rifles are for *coughcoughsputter*oh would you look at the time I have a very important NINJA SMOKE BOMB MOTHERFUCKER! *disappears in  a puff of smoke to later be found hiding behind a dumpster*

I think that should clear up any confusion regarding the others. :unsure:

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10 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

There is always a loophole :P . Who knew that creeping jungle was a SAS agent?

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11 hours ago, Durandal said:

 NINJA SMOKE BOMB MOTHERFUCKER! 

Ninjas don't have smoke bombs, only senior gardeners and consultant ninjas do.

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