Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Albi86

Are direct templates unconstitutional?

46 posts in this topic

14 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

I had this come up in a game a few months back. Bike moves down, guy one shoots, guy 2 dodges, motorbike chain rifles. The only time guy 1 can see the bike is when the bike cant see guy 2. Dice are rolled, guy 1 kills the bike, guy 2 fails dodge and eats the chain rifle. There is no way this sequence should have happened because if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2, but because of the way templates are resolved this is a perfectly fine situation. Before you say the bike carried through long enough to make the shot, he was hit by a panzerfaust and failed all 3 saves, so not much left there.

 

Example problem.png

This isn't anything to do with DTWs though, it could have used any BS Weapon against guy 2 with the same outcome. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

I had this come up in a game a few months back. Bike moves down, guy one shoots, guy 2 dodges, motorbike chain rifles. The only time guy 1 can see the bike is when the bike cant see guy 2. Dice are rolled, guy 1 kills the bike, guy 2 fails dodge and eats the chain rifle. There is no way this sequence should have happened because if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2, but because of the way templates are resolved this is a perfectly fine situation.

Your statement "if guy 1 had killed the bike, the bike never makes it to a position to kill guy 2" is simply false according to the rules.

From the Move skill, among the places where this concept is stated:

IMPORTANT!
Once declared, troopers always reach the end of their Movement, even if they fall into a Null or Immobilized state due to successful enemy Attacksalong the way.

So what point are you trying to make?

 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Albi86 said:

ARO and FtF rolls are a core mechanic of Infinity, so to say part of the "constitution" of the game.

If Ortega shoots Angus with its combi and Angus shoots back, the battle of intents will be resolved with a FtF roll.

Let's say that both hit but Angus prevails. This would symbolize that f.x. Angus was faster, so Ortega was shot before completing his action (e.g. while moving, since everything that happens in an order is simultaneous).

Now, if Ortega had a flamethrower, even if the situation is still the same, the resolution would be quite different. If Ortega had to move to get in range before flaming, the lack of FtF denies the possibility that Angus shot Ortega while approaching, which is a core mechanic of the game. It also collides with the concept of simultaneous resolution of the order, since it implies that Angus cannot do anything to prevent or before Ortega flames, he can only act in response to that.

I'll make a concrete example:

[...]

Am I the only one seeing this?

The Normal Roll has been a part of the game since before there was a printed rulebook.  flamethrowers and chain rifles have been in the game since the 2006 Quick Start pamphlet, with exactly the same interaction as they have today.  Flame/chainrifle someone, and they get a normal roll to do whatever (dodge or shoot you).

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would argue that thing that are and exception to "core rules" are a mainstay.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a guy with a whole heap of ODD at my disposal, you /want/ there to be a way around my modifiers. And MSV is rarely the most feasible answer to that problem. (See Lhost podcast episode 5) Thus, DTWs.

Additionally what would Haqq be without this function? Piece trading cheap flamers and forcing dodges is their shtick.

USARF infiltrating flamer grunts; a lot less cool if they rock up point blank with B1 rifles for ARO. A quick sensor sweep and all they did was waste points. The flamers make opponents play differently precisely because they can't just weight-of-dice their way through it.

I can't imagine the havoc Kusanagi would wreak were there no simple answer to her ODD Spitfire!

 

Tl;Dr Nawh, it's perfectly constitutional. Diversity and complexity make this game what it is and were DTWs to function differently, many different factions and playstyles would be brutally neutered.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

I was going to chime in with this but was apparently beaten to the punch. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Chainrifle - banned (unnecesarrily painful)
Chaincolt - banned (too easy to conceal + see above)

Flamethrower - banned (unnecesarrily painful)

Nanopulser - banned (subdermal versions are too easily concealable)
special mention: Shotguns - banned (because F you ariadna + haqq)

EMarat - also banned due to Cube deactivation.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I knew I left out something :) .

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That gif of Interruptor stone cold shooting Bostria never gets old

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/14/2017 at 3:55 PM, fool's idol said:

Ko Dali and 3 Tiger Soldiers on your backfield!

I'm so sad I never got around to running that list...:rain-cloud::_crying__rvmp_by_bad_blood:

 

On 3/20/2017 at 5:56 AM, Crusader said:

All of the DTWs are unconstitutional: the Concilium Convention bans all of them (at least in human vs human conflicts).

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

Bah, flamethrowers could start uncontrolled fires, that wont do in the Emperor's garden!  Turn wayward foliage in to grey sludge (easy to clean, fresh pine scent) with a nanopulser instead.  Yup, no other use for them, Crane Agents and Hsien Warriors have them for maintaining the Imperial gardens and nothing else!

And Chain Rifles are for *coughcoughsputter*oh would you look at the time I have a very important NINJA SMOKE BOMB MOTHERFUCKER! *disappears in  a puff of smoke to later be found hiding behind a dumpster*

I think that should clear up any confusion regarding the others. :unsure:

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Section 9 said:

Which doesn't stop people from bringing them for "combat engineering".  Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.  EM weapons are just the thing to deal with monowire and rampaging bots.

There is always a loophole :P . Who knew that creeping jungle was a SAS agent?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Durandal said:

 NINJA SMOKE BOMB MOTHERFUCKER! 

Ninjas don't have smoke bombs, only senior gardeners and consultant ninjas do.

6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/22/2017 at 3:55 AM, Crusader said:

There is always a loophole :P . Who knew that creeping jungle was a SAS agent?

Oops.  Totally didn't know that SAS was in the Paradiso jungle we just torched.  So sorry about that, we'd pay for the psychotherapy for your resurrection, but you don't have a Cube.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 22 marzec 2017 at 3:54 PM, Mahtamori said:

Ninjas don't have smoke bombs, only senior gardeners and consultant ninjas do.

For clearing pests and evading responsibility, respectively.

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/21/2017 at 4:53 PM, Section 9 said:

Got Paradiso undergrowth trying to get close to the perimeter?  flamethrowers.

That's a pretty racist way to refer to Shas... /s

5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/14/2017 at 5:55 PM, fool's idol said:

I miss Quantum Intercept Dodges.

Oh, the glorious Quantum Intercept Dodges.

Oh, that specialist that runs to a console, pushes enter and teleports back 5cm because a ninja dodge-intercepted there.

Oh, the stories of Quantum Intercept Dodges.

 

You kids don't know what you missed. The shenanigans! The Kebab Taktik! the King Kong Taktik! the Nomad Katyusha Missile Trick of Death! Ko Dali and 3 Tiger Soldiers on your backfield! Van Zant and threee Paracommandos and a Dog Warrior and a Chick in your backfield! ZoC Sepsitor! Aquila shooting at Camo Markers!

All gone and forgotten. All dead now.

 

tl:dr If any given rule feels weird the reason is they changed realism intto playability after byzarre 1st and 2nd Edition experiences.

[EDIT: Actual Bostria quote in  an (IIRC) BoW N3 video:

"We're done with reallism. We tried to make the game reatity and failed. Now we are making the game a game"

/EDIT]

Either that or the difficulties of translating High Galician into a lesser language.

But mostly the first.

 

Oh god, now I'm having flashbacks of Grenade Dispersion, pre N3 hacking battles which looked like (or actually were) 50vs50 Halo deathmatches. And Pretas! Coordinatedly Impetuosly laying mines! With Dogged! Help!

  Hide contents

rpkw_zpsrmnsb1rn.gif

 

The good old days. 

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0