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the huanglong

Major Lunah, Ex- Aristeiai Sniper for Imperial Service

145 posts in this topic

But as the numbers shown (excellent work there Dasaan btw!) that's clearly a gut feeling overriding the actual odds.

Burst is great, but bonuses to hit are also very good, especially with surprise shot. It's the same with Teucer; you're better using that one shot a lot of the time. And I think that if you fire through a Nimbus zone you declare the skill and check the Burst of the weapon to see if it can be reduced to 1 for MMX before you apply the -1 B for firing through Saturation. Which would mean she could combo very well with a Wu-Ming Nimbus LGL, especially against fireteams (both of them going to B1, but with a net +3 BS for Lunah).

Anyway, I think she seems decent and not overly powerful which is good, because ISS didn't need another option for that. They do have some cool mercs, though. I hope that some other Sectorals get more mercs/characters like this, CB adding them in to spice things up is actually quite a nice, cool touch.

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marksmanship LX doesn't work through nimbus (not on a B2 weapon at least).

It's a niche skill anyway, but on the 5 units who have it Lunah is the one who can make the most out of it: she's the only one able to reduce the opponent's odds (surprise shot + mimetism) which limit the risk of rolling low and being beaten by a slightly better roll, and unlike the pheasant sniper or Teucer she can't ignore mimetism/Camo/ODD/TO so she might want to use it when facing this kind of guys. In stats:

Lunah Surprise shot + MMLX vs Lasiqs (BS 12 viral sniper with mimetism)

Spoiler

Face to Face Roll

Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle vs. Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle

Active Player

57.46% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead)

Failures

30.44% Neither player succeeds

Reactive Player

 

12.10% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead)

Lunah surprise shot B2 vs Lasiqs

Spoiler

Face to Face Roll

Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle vs. Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle

Active Player

54.83% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead)

Failures

31.68% Neither player succeeds

 

Reactive Player

 

13.49% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead)

Lunah surprise shot + Marksmanship LX vs Hexa Sniper (Bs 12, TO)

Spoiler

Face to Face Roll

Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle vs. Hexas, Strategic Security Division - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Anti-Materiel Mode)

Active Player

45.49% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Hexas, Strategic Security Division (Dead)

Failures

40.39% Neither player succeeds

 

Reactive Player

 

14.12% Hexas, Strategic Security Division inflicts 1 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Unconscious)
5.50% Hexas, Strategic Security Division inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead

Lunah Surprise shot B2 Vs Hexa sniper

Spoiler

Face to Face Roll

Lasiqs - Viral Sniper Rifle vs. Hexas, Strategic Security Division - MULTI Sniper Rifle (Anti-Materiel Mode)

Active Player

37.83% Lasiqs inflicts 2 or more wounds on Hexas, Strategic Security Division (Dead)

Failures

45.56% Neither player succeeds

 

Reactive Player

16.61% Hexas, Strategic Security Division inflicts 1 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Unconscious)
6.29% Hexas, Strategic Security Division inflicts 2 or more wounds on Lasiqs (Dead)

 

Also, limited camo on a sniper means you can get out of the DZ and roam around freely until you reach the perfect spot to deliver your deadly surprise shot. It's extremly valuable in ISS, where you either have to gun down the stuff pinning you down or throw smoke everywhere if you want to move forward. Hell, when talking about mobility it's even better than Su-jian's 8" cautious move!

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1 hour ago, Sedral said:

marksmanship LX doesn't work through nimbus (not on a B2 weapon at least).

That's an outstanding issue that we have not got a conclusive answer for. I have answered this question like that before, but I'm willing to read it like how IJW read it a few years ago (the issue doesn't come up often, only twice the past two years or so).

Nimbus (that is, Saturation) reduces your burst by 1 on any attack through it, however, Marksmanship X requires a weapon with a burst of 2. To use absurdity as an argument, if I split burst between two targets my weapon will satisfy Marksmanship X' requirements and it will not get penalized by Saturation zone, meaning that both rules suddenly become contingent on the other to execute first. The current only consistent way of handling it is "Burst 2 or higher after MODs, but before allocation"

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Well, it might be a recent change, but marksmanship LX specifically says that

"The user must be using a BS Weapon with a B value of 2 or more after applying Modifiers."

and the saturation zone rule applies a burst modifier

"Any BS Attack from, into, or through a Saturation Zone suffers a -1 Burst MOD")

therefore you shouldn't be able to use it in a saturation zone with a B2 weapon (but it works with the posthuman MK12).

 

Marksmanship Lx also says

"This Special Skill allows the user to reduce the B value of his weapon to 1, and in return apply to that single shot a +6 BS MOD."

which imo means you can't actually split burst with marksmanship LX. It's the B value of the weapon that is reduced, not the number of burst in the BS attacks. It's not a mod, your weapon's burst goes straight up from X to 1, and you can't split a burst you don't have.

 

 

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It's not a MOD to the weapon and is dependent on how you declare and split your attacks. MMSX depends on MODs before declaring, Saturation applies (none or more) MODs after attack has been declared.

Playing the devil's advocate, if I MMSX through Saturation I only declare one burst shot and Saturation applies no MOD to burst since it doesn't modify 1 burst allocations.

See why it's an outstanding issue? 

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45 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

MMSX depends on MODs before declaring

This is incorrect and not written in the MMLX rules or Order Expenditure sequence rules.

I don't really understand the confusion here, RAW seems quite clear. The requirements of MMLX require a burst 2 weapon AFTER applying mods in step 7 of the order sequence, so this step is after all short skill and ARO declarations. The requirements of MMLX are checked at the MODs stage in step 7. (Requirements being 1) declaring a BS attack and 2) having B2 AFTER MODs are calculated)

7. Resolution: Players take measurements, determine MODs, and make Rolls.

If you are shooting into a nimbus zone that is going to apply a -1 burst mod, meaning you no longer fulfil the requirements of MMLX at step 7. When that happens your skill becomes null and nothing happens, but you still generate an ARO.

IMPORTANT!

A Skill declaration is not valid if the Requirements for their execution are not met. For example, a CC Attackcannot be performed against a figure that is not in base to base contact with the attacker.

If the Player declares a Skill and, when he applies its Effects, he realizes the Requirements are not met, then the Skill is considered null. However, the trooper who declared it still generates ARO, as if he has declared an Idle, and loses the ammunition or equipment used, if he declared the use of a Disposable weapon or piece of Equipment.

 

So sure you can declare an MMLX shot through a nimbus zone on your first or second short skill, but when you come to calculate mods your BS attack becomes null because you would not meet the requirements of a MMLX BS attack that you declared.

In other words, don't be silly and declare MMLX through nimbus zone - it will be a null skill and not work because the saturation zone makes MMLX fail to meet it's requirements.

Btw if you are declaring MMLX you can't split your burst and declare MMLX at the same time. You either declare you using MMLX BS attack against one target or declare a normal B2 BS attack between two targets. Anything else is just looking for a loophole and exploitation

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Okay, so assume I declare a BS attack using 1 burst of my 2 burst weapon. I am using a weapon with burst 2, thus can declare MMSLX, and it's one burst so it doesn't get modded by Saturation.

Do note again, it is the burst value of the weapon that is the skill's requirement. Just like Suppression can't be declared if the weapon has a burst value of 2. So you're saying Suppression doesn't work through Saturation zones?

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if nimbus cant be used with marksmanship level x, it becomes a lost opportunity.

nimbus zone already has very little uses. if nimbus + marksmanship level x doesnt work together, i wont like it.

nimbus zone and marksmanship level x are things that nobody likes and use at all already.

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You're getting the sequence order mixed up about when the burst requirements are checked and applied. You are saying that you check the burst requirements and apply the burst reduction from B2 > B1 at the declaration step before saturation kicks in, so your sequence looks like this.

Declare > B2 requirement check > Apply mods/saturation > MMLX shot

That isn't what the MMLX rules say. The sequence for MMLX is declare first, then skills/AROs, then MODs check (incl saturation) then the requirements check. So according to the rules it looks like this:

Declare > Apply mods/saturation > B2 requirement check > MMLX fail > Idle/null

REQUIREMENTS

  • The user may only benefit from this Special Skill when he declares a BS Attack. (Step 3 or 5 of order sequence)
  • The user must be using a BS Weapon with a Bvalue of 2 or more after applying Modifiers. (Step 7 of order sequence)
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10 minutes ago, T.I.A said:

You're getting the sequence order mixed up about when the burst requirements are checked and applied. You are saying that you check the burst requirements and apply the burst reduction from B2 > B1 at the declaration step before saturation kicks in, so your sequence looks like this.

Declare > B2 requirement check > Apply mods/saturation > MMLX shot

That isn't what the MMLX rules say. The sequence for MMLX is declare first, then skills/AROs, then MODs check (incl saturation) then the requirements check. So according to the rules it looks like this:

Declare > Apply mods/saturation > B2 requirement check > MMLX fail > Idle/null

REQUIREMENTS

  • The user may only benefit from this Special Skill when he declares a BS Attack. (Step 3 or 5 of order sequence)
  • The user must be using a BS Weapon with a Bvalue of 2 or more after applying Modifiers. (Step 7 of order sequence)

But is the attack a MOD to the BS Attack also mean the burst value of the weapon has been MODed? Does shooting someone using Suppressive Fire through a Saturation Zone cancel Suppressive Fire since you're using a weapon that has a Burst value of 2? Does Saturation Zone apply during BS Attack skill declaration effect step?

No, you don't actually need to answer those, they are illustrative, since it's at this point we're not going to actually get anywhere so it's time to ask the important question.

Have you got my message that this is an outstanding issue that the developers have not addressed and need to address?

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The difference is that MMLX requires B2 after MODs are calculated to use.

Suppressive fire only requires B3 at the declaration stage, there is no restriction on the suppressive fire rules about using suppression at B2 after MODs are calculated.

MMLX specifically calls out that restriction, suppressive fire does not. Thats why you can use suppressive fire through a saturation zone, because to suppress you only need a B3/suppressive trait weapon at point of declaration and it is allowed to be affected by burst mods. MMLX however will not allow you to use it if the burst mods affect it to go below B2.

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54 minutes ago, T.I.A said:

The difference is that MMLX requires B2 after MODs are calculated to use.

Suppressive fire only requires B3 at the declaration stage, there is no restriction on the suppressive fire rules about using suppression at B2 after MODs are calculated.

MMLX specifically calls out that restriction, suppressive fire does not. Thats why you can use suppressive fire through a saturation zone, because to suppress you only need a B3/suppressive trait weapon at point of declaration and it is allowed to be affected by burst mods. MMLX however will not allow you to use it if the burst mods affect it to go below B2.

You're avoiding the difficult questions. Let's try again: do you understand why this isn't cut and dry?

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Edited... @Mahtamori - I see your point. The rule is poorly worded by specifying the weapon has the burst, not the shooting attack.

I think the intention is that you can swap a B2 or more attack against a single model for a +6 BS shot. Holding a shot back from your weapon to let you ignore modifiers is... as cheesy as splitting burst through saturation zones to avoid losing shots. Which is totally legit. Saturation zones are... odd.

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Related topic here...

@Mahtamori after meditating on it I think your interpretation is correct. If you declare a burst 1 BS attack through sat zone, the saturation zone doesn't modify it. If saturation zone doesn't modifiy it no modifiers apply to the weapon and you're allowed to use your skill to activate MMLX... which drops your burst to one and you get your +6 BS.

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Oh dear, I caused a lot of trouble by sharing your interpretation of the rule on WGC infinity.

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On 10.5.2017 at 8:30 PM, YueFei23 said:

Oh dear, I caused a lot of trouble by sharing your interpretation of the rule on WGC infinity.

No worries, there isn't really much room for interpretation. MMS LX sets the B value of the weapon to one after all MODs while a Saturation Zone applies afterwards because it modifies the B value of the entire BS Attack (notably different).

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so final state is,,

Lunah can use a single sniper viral shot in nimbus zone , with marsmanship level x .

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Highly unlikely. Please read the linked thread, including all recent posts.

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On 5/12/2017 at 8:24 AM, IJW Wartrader said:

Highly unlikely. Please read the linked thread, including all recent posts.

I read several pages of that thread, and it still isn't clear to me which interpretation is favored. A lot of people seem to want MMX and nimbus to work together and your question cited a legal example how it would work.

There's mud in the water by people claiming a link team burst mod could be applied *after* dropping weapon burst to 1, which seems against the spirit of the "set to burst 1" being after other mods. But the basic example of having weapon burst 2, declaring a single shot and then incurring no mods from the saturation zone still straightforward and a legal way to resolve the wording of the rules. It's also consistent with the way split burst works through saturation zone.

Also, it's totally legit to not fire your full weapon's burst. I don't think anyone would prevent you plinking off single shots with a combi rifle or hold one of your disposable panzerfaust rounds back if you're firing as a linked ARO.

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On 5/15/2017 at 4:20 PM, YueFei23 said:

Also, it's totally legit to not fire your full weapon's burst. I don't think anyone would prevent you plinking off single shots with a combi rifle or hold one of your disposable panzerfaust rounds back if you're firing as a linked ARO.

The usual reason to not fire your full burst is to not burn up all your Faust/Blitzen/Flammenspear ammo while linked.

I cannot see any reason to do so with a combirifle.  Burst is too powerful an influence on probability otherwise.  Hell, MMX is barely worth it, as you've seen in all the comparisons from the dice calculator.

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