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KestrelM1

Smoke Ammunition, Friendlies, and Civvies

Question

So, I'm having a bit of trouble reconciling some very common maneuvers with the rules. The first is a fairly typical Special Dodge, in which a trooper uses a Smoke Grenade in such a way that their own base, or a friendly's base, is covered. The standard "Smoke at my feet" tactic. The second is using a Smoke Ammunition in such a way that affects Civilians. 

From my reading of the rules, it seems that in both of the maneuvers above, the shot would be considered "null" and the attack cancelled. The relevant rules I'm seeing are this one, under "Template weapons and friendly and Neutral troopers":

"So, if the player declares an Attack with a Template weapon that affects a friendly or Neutral trooper, then that shot is considered null."

And this one, under "Civilians in Infinity":

"So, if the player declares an Attack with a Template weapon that affects a Civilian, then that shot is considered null (But not any other shot of the same Burst with no Civilian affected by a Template)."

Both of which effectively say the same thing. I couldn't find anything that overrides these rules in the Impact Template (Circular), Non Lethal, Special Dodge, Speculative Fire, Targetless, or Throwing Weapon rules, or elsewhere. So it seems that any template, regardless of its ammunition type, including Smoke, is cancelled if it is placed such that it affects a friendly trooper or Civilian. 

Now obviously this flies in the face of both common sense and common play practices, so I'm guessing I'm missing something. Does anyone know where the relevant rule(s) allowing this are located? And if not, should I start enforcing this in games?

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I think the key term here is that the template is cancelled if it Affects the friendly or neutral trooper.

Because Smoke has the trait non-lethal these troopers will not be affected in any way, there are no ARM or BTS rolls, and no state changes occur, so the template is not cancelled. 

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9 minutes ago, Col said:

Because Smoke has the trait non-lethal these troopers will not be affected in any way, there are no ARM or BTS rolls, and no state changes occur, so the template is not cancelled. 

I'd agree, but problematically the term "affected" is defined as:

"All troopers or targets in base contact or inside the Area of Effect of the Template are affected by the Attack declared."

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Templates that affect a friendly or neutral trooper get cancelled because you're not allowed to attack them. Smoke ammo 'is not an Attack'.

EDIT - and yes, it could be more clearly spelled out.

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39 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Templates that affect a friendly or neutral trooper get cancelled because you're not allowed to attack them. Smoke ammo 'is not an Attack'.

EDIT - and yes, it could be more clearly spelled out.

Okay. where is that rule located, for future reference? And as a corollary question, is it not allowed to throw Nimbus ammo on Friendly/Neutral models, since that is very explicitly an Attack?

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1 minute ago, KestrelM1 said:

Okay... in that case, as a corollary question, is it not allowed to throw Nimbus ammo on Friendly/Neutral models, since that is very explicitly an Attack?

Nimbus is not an attack as it has the same Targetless and non-lethal traits as smoke, this is why Nimbus never creates a ftf roll (it lacks the Special Dodge trait). 

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4 minutes ago, Col said:

Nimbus is not an attack as it has the same Targetless and non-lethal traits as smoke, this is why Nimbus never creates a ftf roll (it lacks the Special Dodge trait). 

The fourth Effect of Nimbus ammo is:

"Firing Nimbus Special Ammunition is an Attack." 

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1 minute ago, KestrelM1 said:

The fourth Effect of Nimbus ammo is:

"Firing Nimbus Special Ammunition is an Attack." 

Whoops, that is an odd one, I wonder if that was added in HSN3.

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Quoted verbatim from the Wiki. Yes it doesn't make any sense at all because it applies to all smoke ammo, not just speculative fire, but they're you have it.

 

Smoke and Speculative Fire

Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack.

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55 minutes ago, KestrelM1 said:

Okay. where is that rule located, for future reference?

 And as a corollary question, is it not allowed to throw Nimbus ammo on Friendly/Neutral models, since that is very explicitly an Attack?

Since you've brought up Nimbus ammo, compare the two bullet points:

"Firing Nimbus Special Ammunition is an Attack. "

"Shooting or throwing Smoke Special Ammunition is a Special Dodge. "

followed by the later section:

"Smoke and Speculative Fire

Certain weapons that use Smoke Special Ammunition allow the user to use the Speculative Fire Common Skill. In that case, the Common Skill Speculative Fire works normally, even though it is a Special Dodge and not an Attack."

in case it that bullet point's meaning was ambiguous.

So then you get to the situation that an enemy trooper affected by a smoke grenade template can dodge the template because they're affected by a template weapon, not because they're being attacked.  And the section prohibiting declaring an Attack doesn't apply because it's a Special Dodge and not an Attack.

 

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Ah, makes sense. I missed the bullet point about the "type" of order being a Special Dodge and not an attack. Thanks for the answers.

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2 hours ago, KestrelM1 said:

The first is a fairly typical Special Dodge, in which a trooper uses a Smoke Grenade in such a way that their own base, or a friendly's base, is covered. The standard "Smoke at my feet" tactic. 

Just want to clarify since it's been coming up a lot lately, but a trooper can only throw smoke on themselves to avoid an attack. They can't throw it on a friendly trooper. It can be used to block LOS for anyone but the special dodge tag only works for the thrower. 

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26 minutes ago, GregMurdock said:

Just want to clarify since it's been coming up a lot lately, but a trooper can only throw smoke on themselves to avoid an attack. They can't throw it on a friendly trooper. It can be used to block LOS for anyone but the special dodge tag only works for the thrower. 

Good to point out. Sorry the example muddied the waters on that.

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1 hour ago, GregMurdock said:

Just want to clarify since it's been coming up a lot lately, but a trooper can only throw smoke on themselves to avoid an attack. They can't throw it on a friendly trooper. It can be used to block LOS for anyone but the special dodge tag only works for the thrower. 

You can throw smoke on a friendly trooper, it just won't help the other trooper during that Order.

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