Flamephoenix

PanO One dimensional?

771 posts in this topic

I see this complaint pop up quite a bit (most notably in the GAP analysis) but I don't really get it? PanO has access to a ton of different equipment and special rules. We have Camo/TO Camo/Holy Projectors/MSV2/3, Drop troops, EM weapons etc... the list goes on? I often see the complaint that our units are one dimensional as well, but then when we get jack of all trade units like Bolts/Montessa Knights/Locust the forum wisdom's seems to be that they are garbage...

So I'm curious to hear opinions on why this one dimensional bland faction opinion states? Is this just a case of people favoring the profiles that have raw stats over special rules? or is it something else.

Note: The gap analysis covers wishlisting pretty good so I don't want this thread to devolve into that, I'm just curious why people think the existing PanO unit stock is bland

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Find a place, outside of vanilla, where you have access to all of that.

 

None of those bits and bobs are anywhere near common enough to be considered a "signature feature" of PanO. We get...+1 Ballistic Skill.

That's it.

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I for one am a big fan of pano's somewhat one dimensional firepower schtick.bi just wish we didnt pay through the nose for the 14th or 15th point of BS that cones at the cost of other factions's tools: +1wip, template weapons etc. Instead of this +1 bs.

Not that +1bs should be free. That would be dumb. Rather, thatbi think it may be overpriced sometimes.

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It may feel bland to be the faction that shoots better, but it does lend itself to a specific playstyle that is very characteristically PanO. When I play other factions I may feel like the lack of 1 or 2 BS in comparison to PanO does make a difference. When you start stacking modifiers you find pretty quick that 5-10% difference is a big deal.

That being said, each sectorial in PanO is a slight variation of hit hard. You have the utility hit hard, HI spam hit hard, or fancy tech hit hard. It's not super shiny if you are into tricks and utility, but if you like big gun options, this faction is pretty unique. 

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6 minutes ago, xammy said:

It may feel bland to be the faction that shoots better, but it does lend itself to a specific playstyle that is very characteristically PanO. When I play other factions I may feel like the lack of 1 or 2 BS in comparison to PanO does make a difference. When you start stacking modifiers you find pretty quick that 5-10% difference is a big deal.

That being said, each sectorial in PanO is a slight variation of hit hard. You have the utility hit hard, HI spam hit hard, or fancy tech hit hard. It's not super shiny if you are into tricks and utility, but if you like big gun options, this faction is pretty unique. 

It's  especially fun to play or watch pano v pano matches where everyone keeps their head down and plays keepaway until one side or the other feels its time to pounce. 

The Pano hammer drops hard. Not many factions are compelled to commit like pano.

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Just now, DerBrizon said:

It's  especially fun yo play or watch pano v pano matches where everyone keeps their head down and plays keepaway until one side or the other feels its time to pounce. 

The Pano hammer drops hard. Not many factions are compelled to commit like pano.

Exactly this! I really enjoy this playstyle. I often tend toward fewer orders in comparison to other factions (10 to 12) and I have to punch through the opponents tools before my specialists have any real hope of completing objectives. 

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Some people think PanO is one dimensional, some (like me) don't.  I feel we've good access to tools, and I personally don't ever feel like I lack the tools to meet a specific challenge, at least as far as my army goes.  Now, I as a player may not have the tools, but not the army.

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Just now, A Mão Esquerda said:

Some people think PanO is one dimensional, some (like me) don't.  I feel we've good access to tools, and I personally don't ever feel like I lack the tools to meet a specific challenge, at least as far as my army goes.  Now, I as a player may not have the tools, but not the army.

I can see that. Since most pano troops are single-purpose, though there isnt much chance if deployment is poor, or if you didnt bring the right tools. Other factions seem to have much better backup plans - especially since their 'big' troops have a tendency to be cheaper.

But if you imagine a dynamic between hacking/shooting/shellgame/warband/spam, many factions can pick 2 to 4 of those. Haqq and nomad can deploy every single aspect listed above to some degree at the same time. Pano can pick 2 and a hint of a 3rd and cant even hope to attempt some of them - which is clearly better than some sectorials *coughMAFcough*. But this is a vanilla discussion.

Long story short, pano's lack of toolbox options means we have to take 1 of each of a lot of different things or double up on a short list of tools. Each specialty troop we have is actually quite costly for it's purpose and almost invariably poor at non-killing tasks compared to other factional equivalents.

When your ONLY common option is to kill everything first, 5% doesnt feel like it's  helping. In this regard, the pano player has to get reeeaallly good at making sure each engagemen is on his terms.

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1 hour ago, Flamephoenix said:

So I'm curious to hear opinions on why this one dimensional bland faction opinion states? Is this just a case of people favoring the profiles that have raw stats over special rules? or is it something else.

I think the issue is that although you've listed a lot of stuff there, those things often singularly define the trooper as the only ability/equipment they have (ignoring niche abilities like specific terrain rules or Religious). Many of the TO troops have just TO. A lot of the MSV guys have either just MSV, or combine it with another passive BS mod, namely mimetism. Neither of the AD troopers have anything beyond their ability to drop/walk in (except the Crusader MR/LFT, who is great with all his weapon options). We barely have camo (and the one profile that does use it can't pretend it's anything else, so no scope for shenanigans).

And does anyone hate Locusts? I think they're great Drop bears on a profile that can actually get into a position to use them & (sadly) exotic weapon options. I've used Montesa to great effect since their revamp (on the other hand I have had a duo pinned down by a hacking net before even my first turn). Are Bolts jacks of all trades?

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20 minutes ago, DerBrizon said:

I can see that. Since most pano troops are single-purpose, though there isnt much chance if deployment is poor, or if you didnt bring the right tools. Other factions seem to have much better backup plans - especially since their 'big' troops have a tendency to be cheaper.

But if you imagine a dynamic between hacking/shooting/shellgame/warband/spam, many factions can pick 2 to 4 of those. Haqq and nomad can deploy every single aspect listed above to some degree at the same time. Pano can pick 2 and a hint of a 3rd and cant even hope to attempt some of them - which is clearly better than some sectorials *coughMAFcough*. But this is a vanilla discussion.

Long story short, pano's lack of toolbox options means we have to take 1 of each of a lot of different things or double up on a short list of tools. Each specialty troop we have is actually quite costly for it's purpose and almost invariably poor at non-killing tasks compared to other factional equivalents.

When your ONLY common option is to kill everything first, 5% doesnt feel like it's  helping. In this regard, the pano player has to get reeeaallly good at making sure each engagemen is on his terms.

Not to go over old ground, but if I'm playing PanO, I'm accepting the choices that I have.  Some will see that as one dimensional, some (such as myself) won't.  I'm happy to use the tools I have at my disposal, which I personally find give me the choices I want.

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I am always continually impressed by the amount of pressure PanO can put on an opponent and how well they can brute force their way through an obstacle. When I play against PanO there is always this looming threat that I better keep my guys heads down in total  cover or at the very least in suppression or they are most certainly gonna get shot/countered, but even then suppression can be dismantled by TO Camo unit suddenly appearing and surprise shotting.

There's something to be said by removing your opponents trooper by brute force and also your opponents order pool with it. Skirting around ARO pieces or obstacles with tricks or smoke has its merits but it can come back and bite you in the ass if you don't remove that opponents order. Although having to shoot through obstacles can be seen as inefficient it tends to play out efficiently by bottom of turn 2 / top of turn 3 when you have dented your opponents order pool by removing troopers and still accomplishing objectives. When I play against PanO I feel like I have to be continually on high alert against their aggression or they can do damage that I can't recover from.

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24 minutes ago, DerBrizon said:

I think piano is quite one dimensional.  My hope is that it dives deeper into that one dimension.  The tools at panos disposal are great, but if panostyle is killtown, id like it to get more creatively blunt in that direction.

Edit: to be clear this is why i advocated for more drop bears and multiweapons in other thread. Nothing says ill kill everything like high BS high tech guns and a castle of cute little tossable landmines

Honestly, I've been thinking that Drop Bears shouldn't be a "deploy one" thing.

 

It should be something like you throw the "deployable", but then it separates into 3 markers that scatter.

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3 minutes ago, Kanluwen said:

Honestly, I've been thinking that Drop Bears shouldn't be a "deploy one" thing.

 

It should be something like you throw the "deployable", but then it separates into 3 markers that scatter.

I dont think id like the randomization though. I like being able to toss one (at pretty good odds) or just lay one like a mine. Being able to set all three at once would be crazy. Especially if they scattered into large areas affecting multiple (possibly camo) troops. This would bypass the intuitive attack requirement.

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8 minutes ago, DerBrizon said:

I dont think id like the randomization though. I like being able to toss one (at pretty good odds) or just lay one like a mine. Being able to set all three at once would be crazy. Especially if they scattered into large areas affecting multiple (possibly camo) troops. This would bypass the intuitive attack requirement.

Honestly, I kind of have always envisioned the Drop Bears like the little "seeker drones" from Elysium.

 

The things that got tossed out and then latched into the one guy's flesh? They're effectively harmless--unless detonated.

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I would like to see some more options within our "BS attack" oriented playstyle. Like more unique auxbot options. If we are going to be limited by G:sinc bots we might as well have some more options with them interesting choices instead of a one size fits all for some profiles. I'm not saying we have to have a dropbear auxbot... but I want one.

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I've been taking 1-2 Krakots in every vanilla list lately, because they address the first three of Admirals complaints above.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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18 minutes ago, JoshTheStampede said:

I've been taking 1-2 Krakots in every vanilla list lately, because they address the first three of Admirals complaints above.

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Coming from MAF, I'm always scared of using Krakot without smoke. 1Krakot+1Daturazi is preeeeettty good. Wouldn't know how to incorporate Krakot into PanOstyle. Is it like a flank protector/opportunity thing?

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18 minutes ago, JoshTheStampede said: I've been taking 1-2 Krakots in every vanilla list lately, because they address the first three of Admirals complaints above.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Coming from MAF, I'm always scared of using Krakot without smoke. 1Krakot+1Daturazi is preeeeettty good. Wouldn't know how to incorporate Krakot into PanOstyle. Is it like a flank protector/opportunity thing?

More or less yeah. It's 14 points for a regular dual chain rifle with grenades and metachemistry and forward deploy. Flank protectors or blowing infiltrators off objectives to clear the way for your specialists.

Believe me I'd rather have a Daturazi :)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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1 minute ago, JoshTheStampede said:

More or less yeah. It's 14 points for a regular dual chain rifle with grenades and metachemistry and forward deploy. Flank protectors or blowing infiltrators off objectives to clear the way for your specialists.

Believe me I'd rather have a Daturazi :)

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Well I need to paint up my other Krakot and give it a swing some time!

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16 minutes ago, DerBrizon said:

Coming from MAF, I'm always scared of using Krakot without smoke. 1Krakot+1Daturazi is preeeeettty good. Wouldn't know how to incorporate Krakot into PanOstyle. Is it like a flank protector/opportunity thing?

The trick is to be really aggressive and open with your heavy firepower, deploy overwhelming fire superiority units like TAGs so the enemy deploys without any AROs out (or limited AROs) and then take advantage of that by charging a Krakot (or Magister Knight for that matter... they do basically the same thing) across the table.

But with no smoke (and especially no Impetuous Smoke to cover one another) it's certainly a LOT harder to use such units effectively. 

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7 hours ago, Kanluwen said:

Honestly, I kind of have always envisioned the Drop Bears like the little "seeker drones" from Elysium.

Sooo MadTraps and Crazy Koalas ?

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