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PanO One dimensional?

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Slightly off topic but in the spirit of panO shortfalls- is there a fluff reason for no smoke?

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4 minutes ago, Phototoxin said:

Slightly off topic but in the spirit of panO shortfalls- is there a fluff reason for no smoke?

Its "primitive".
You "have" TO camo for that purpose!

Funny that most of the "primitive" equipment is rather dispropotionally strong to high-tech equipment.

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1 hour ago, Eciu said:

Yes it would. Problem current problem is that there's no reason to take Teuton over Hospitaller/Magister/Santiago unless you are really tight on points or for some reason definetaly need that Berserk skill in your list (again is not that Teuton is useless standalone but overshadowed by a lot of more focused units, also combi Hospitaller is cheaper than combi Teuton if someone wants to brag about "cheapest BS14 HI"). 

MK?

I always imagined "fast" HI as something Joan 2.0 is so 6-2 MOV with Multiterrain. 

Magister Knight, sorry fir making up abbreviations on the go :P . Dodge 3 to 4 inch (depending on kinematika it could've had) on 17.

Sadly we know 6-2 is super human speed. As in literally "above human" and only aliens, robots and engineered humans (recreations) have it.

17 minutes ago, Phototoxin said:

Slightly off topic but in the spirit of panO shortfalls- is there a fluff reason for no smoke?

In fluff, though not in game, apparently MSV among Pan-O forces is common enough that smoke is pointless. This is second hand information, mind, though one would say MSV2 on Fusiliers would be... broken.

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23 minutes ago, Phototoxin said:

Slightly off topic but in the spirit of panO shortfalls- is there a fluff reason for no smoke?

Unless there was some pope anathema (which was not described in fluff) I don't know any fluff reason :P

 

16 minutes ago, Guardian said:

Its "primitive".
You "have" TO camo for that purpose!

Funny that most of the "primitive" equipment is rather dispropotionally strong to high-tech equipment.

Dont forget that this "primitive" equipment is also very cheap for what it does.

6 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Magister Knight, sorry fir making up abbreviations on the go :P . Dodge 3 to 4 inch (depending on kinematika it could've had) on 17.

Well I have high doubts if we should see HI model with both Hyperdynamics and Kinematika ..... (ok Seraph could do that ;P)

7 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

In fluff, though not in game, apparently MSV among Pan-O forces is common enough that smoke is pointless. This is second hand information, mind, though one would say MSV2 on Fusiliers would be... broken.

Shouldn't MSV2 on Fusi almost double his price ?

8 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

In fluff, though not in game, apparently MSV among Pan-O forces is common enough that smoke is pointless.

I would say something different, having such broad access to MSV2 means you always want to fight in smoke as that means your opponent has a big and strong disadvantage of being totally blind. 

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8 minutes ago, Eciu said:

Shouldn't MSV2 on Fusi almost double his price ?

I would say something different, having such broad access to MSV2 means you always want to fight in smoke as that means your opponent has a big and strong disadvantage of being totally blind. 

Yes, but if MSV2 equivalent gear is super common among your forces and your enemy's (I don't delve into fluff enough, but if it's only marginally less common among Yu Jing - and on more than just a single unit among the others) it becomes meaningless even though it's super effective against those that don't - which for most factions using smoke would mean internal conflict and criminal elements.

15 points I think. So broken in that getting a good order base is harder, but also broken in how ODD, TO and smoke completely loses their meaning.

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3 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Speaking of Teutons, wouldn't Eclipse make a lot of sense on them? As an outsider I see a hell of a lot more complaints avout them than about FKs.

Pan-O HI seem to be missing Kinematika for the most part. It's not the skill I'd prefer to replace the fast aspect of the old 4-4 HI, that's for sure, so in the case I don't think you got the short end of the stick. MK would be beastly with it, though.

Yes, but you can't ask for any sort of Smoke in the PanO forum, unless you want to be bored by the answers. It's also a slap in the face for the GdA, which is a problem. While decent and unique, it's not a particular stellar choice as it is. 

FK have a very good Profile in the Assault Hacker and the others are only bad in comparison (except the ML). Coming from Haqq, CA and Nomads a lot of people don't see ARM5 BS14 as a problem (which it isn't, the competition and 4 more guys like that is what makes it dull/bad).

24 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

Yes, but if MSV2 equivalent gear is super common among your forces and your enemy's (I don't delve into fluff enough, but if it's only marginally less common among Yu Jing - and on more than just a single unit among the others) it becomes meaningless even though it's super effective against those that don't - which for most factions using smoke would mean internal conflict and criminal elements.

15 points I think. So broken in that getting a good order base is harder, but also broken in how ODD, TO and smoke completely loses their meaning.

And also makes paying 29 points for the other BS12 MSV2 Combi dude somewhat ridiculous :D 

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Ugh please no MSV2 on Fusiliers.  It's already bad enough in Vanilla, paying for unlinked Fusiliers because they're the cheapest Order once you max AVA on REMs.  Inflating that with a something like MSV2 would be broken, yes, but broken in a bad/non-functional way.  The only Sectorial that might be happy about MSV2 Fusliers might be MO, and even then I don't think MO players want their cheap LT/cheap Supportware Hackers to have their cost inflated for no great purpose.

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1 hour ago, Barakiel said:

The only Sectorial that might be happy about MSV2 Fusliers might be MO, and even then I don't think MO players want their cheap LT/cheap Supportware Hackers to have their cost inflated for no great purpose.

MO is really struggling to find cheap order pool for their links (when you compare it to ISS or JSA). 

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8 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

This is not to say that Guarda can't be reinvented, but rather that using the old fluff as justification is not an honest approach. 

Whether old or new, this is the fluff on GdA. How is it not honest to rely on it? 

 

7 hours ago, Eciu said:

I think he mean only Eclipse Grenades (so the FK and Singh had a PH Eclipse Grenades not auxbots with their crappy BS10 and LEGL )

Yes, it's what I meant :)

That said, I must say Eclipse could make sense on the Teutons too. 

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Although eclipse on the Teutons would definitely work in a practical sense, I just can't imagine them from a fluff perspective throwing eclipse grenades...It just seems really out of their character to throw something that blocks LoF. They are pretty hardcore Knights and go through intense combat training and discipline and are described as frenzied mad men when they reach CC (read the Teutonic order fluff in the HSN3 guidebook that isn't online and not part of the unit fluff and you'll see what I mean.) For them to be finesse like and careful using grenades feels kind of...Weird.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work on the table, it would and they are a good candidate for it but then I'm not sure they would feel like the crazy mad Teutonic Knights anymore. I think I'd prefer them to have more weapon profiles to really aid them in that 8 - 16" mad dash towards the enemy other than a combi rifle. An assault pistol, shotgun or SMG or something.

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Honestly speaking from their fluff description teutons should have a visual mod to help them reach close combat or even something like albedo but that deploys zero v zone directly on the user for the first turn or even a saturation zone. Like a sort of nano chaff dispenser 

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If a unit possesses enough intelligence and dexterity to Reset their powered armor interfaces when being attacked by enemy infowar Specialists, or even aim a precision rifle more accurately and effectively than 95% of all combatants in the universe, I'm pretty sure they can muster enough self control and grey matter to throw a grenade between themselves and the bad guys.

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38 minutes ago, T.I.A said:

Although eclipse on the Teutons would definitely work in a practical sense, I just can't imagine them from a fluff perspective throwing eclipse grenades...It just seems really out of their character to throw something that blocks LoF. They are pretty hardcore Knights and go through intense combat training and discipline and are described as frenzied mad men when they reach CC (read the Teutonic order fluff in the HSN3 guidebook that isn't online and not part of the unit fluff and you'll see what I mean.) For them to be finesse like and careful using grenades feels kind of...Weird.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work on the table, it would and they are a good candidate for it but then I'm not sure they would feel like the crazy mad Teutonic Knights anymore. I think I'd prefer them to have more weapon profiles to really aid them in that 8 - 16" mad dash towards the enemy other than a combi rifle. An assault pistol, shotgun or SMG or something.

If Cameronians, Dog Warriors, and Morlocks are smart enough to use grenades it shouldn't be too hard for knight, and grenades would facilitate them getting to punch more faces, which I think would make them happy.

Realistically the main issue with Teutons getting eclipse is that they would make the GDA an almost useless profile outside of SAA. 

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43 minutes ago, T.I.A said:

Although eclipse on the Teutons would definitely work in a practical sense, I just can't imagine them from a fluff perspective throwing eclipse grenades...It just seems really out of their character to throw something that blocks LoF. They are pretty hardcore Knights and go through intense combat training and discipline and are described as frenzied mad men when they reach CC (read the Teutonic order fluff in the HSN3 guidebook that isn't online and not part of the unit fluff and you'll see what I mean.) For them to be finesse like and careful using grenades feels kind of...Weird.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work on the table, it would and they are a good candidate for it but then I'm not sure they would feel like the crazy mad Teutonic Knights anymore. I think I'd prefer them to have more weapon profiles to really aid them in that 8 - 16" mad dash towards the enemy other than a combi rifle. An assault pistol, shotgun or SMG or something.

 

19 minutes ago, Skoll said:

Honestly speaking from their fluff description teutons should have a visual mod to help them reach close combat or even something like albedo but that deploys zero v zone directly on the user for the first turn. Like a sort of nano chaff dispenser 

 

5 minutes ago, Barakiel said:

If a unit possesses enough intelligence and dexterity to Reset their powered armor interfaces when being attacked by enemy infowar Specialists, or even aim a precision rifle more accurately and effectively than 95% of all combatants in the universe, I'm pretty sure they can muster enough self control and grey matter to throw a grenade between themselves and the bad guys.

 

I think you're all right.

it depends a bit on how we look at things. I agree with Barakiel and Skoll that throwing a smoke grenade is an obvious way to cover an advance towards CQ or even CC. So all good with the fluff.

But TIA also has a point in saying that it would inevitably turn Teutons into a support unit that covers other troops advancing with it. That would be very much against the fluff.

in the end I thought best not to give them eclipse and save it instead for units with a more team player attitude. But again, I do see the point of how it could make sense on the Teutons too.

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25 minutes ago, Narkano said:

Realistically the main issue with Teutons getting eclipse is that they would make the GDA an almost useless profile outside of SAA. 

Well are Teutons a popular choice anywhere atm. ?

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1 hour ago, Eciu said:

Well are Teutons a popular choice anywhere atm. ?

Honestly nowhere afik, at least i never field teutons and the few times i have I've been rudely dissapointed.

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2 hours ago, Eciu said:

Well are Teutons a popular choice anywhere atm. ?

No, except for in some 200 point games to my knowledge, but fixing one unit really should not come at the expense of breaking/hurting another unit imho. 

Dont get me wrong, I'd be really happy to see Teutons get eclipse smoke, it's do wonders for MO, Teutons, and PanO in general, but I don't think it is something CB would even entertain partly due to PanO's design, and partly because of how it would affect the GDA. 

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2 hours ago, Narkano said:

No, except for in some 200 point games to my knowledge, but fixing one unit really should not come at the expense of breaking/hurting another unit imho. 

Dont get me wrong, I'd be really happy to see Teutons get eclipse smoke, it's do wonders for MO, Teutons, and PanO in general, but I don't think it is something CB would even entertain partly due to PanO's design, and partly because of how it would affect the GDA. 

They could just do like the Specialist/Order Sergeants. The TOFOOS costs 1SWC in vanilla. Just add in an SWC tax in vanilla on the Teuton.

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