Flamephoenix

PanO One dimensional?

771 posts in this topic

I need to play more. Stun ammo really does add an element that this game needed (anti-rambo ammo). That makes units with multi-rifles even more useful. Heck, a stun ARO can be great as well. I need to take multi-rifles more often. LOL. Everyone always taking heavy weapons over a multi-rifle is probably why I don't know this. lol

 

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MSV2 with MSR is a perfect silver bullet if ya know what I mean.

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35 minutes ago, Death said:

Isn't a TAG (since it has STR) already immune to Shock? So the Bioimmunity is only useful vs Viral and stun. So very niche but nice to have when fighting Tohaa and HaqqIslam.

Its not that hard to get 12 to 14 orders with a pair of Montesa. Though honestly, just one Montesa is often enough since you can support it with peacekeepers and Nagas or TO camo in MO.

With Bioimmunity you get to use BTS vs Shock.

28 minutes ago, Death said:

Oh right, its exotic. Damn Stun. Honestly, I haven't seen that used much at all. lol

I do think 1 montesa with support is great for both ASA and MO if you want to build an infiltration based team. Sure, they are no Daofei, but they are still pretty good. Hell, Montesa Knights can work in generic Pano with croc men.

MSR AROs with 2 BTS rolls against a HI/TAG are usually a sad rambo piece. Regular DA Ammo has usually worse odds to even cause a wound (both roll 2 dice and ARM is usually higher on hard targets). Even against something with higher BTS you'll need to do 2/3 wounds to stop it compared to just 1 with Stun.

Stun is B1 tho, even on Snipers, so it's mostly ARO potential. Linked B2 Stun MSR active have saved my ass though.

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Oh right, and BTS is 1 point higher on the Xenodron. Oh wow, the Black Fraier just got better. lol

It also provides the multi-rifle crusader brethren with more use. Drop him down and sneak behind a TAG to stun them.

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10 minutes ago, Death said:

It also provides the multi-rifle crusader brethren with more use. Drop him down and sneak behind a TAG to stun them.

Of course, Akalis get E/mitter, but then you lose the MULTI ammos and LFT.

The points saved may be worth it though. I think it's a good profile. Hellcats pay SWC for their ADHL :P

Of course Tomcats don't for the E/mitter either.

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Wow, this makes the MSR Bagh Mari even more awesome. lol Especially since ASA is lacking in ways into deal with tough units like TAGs.

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56 minutes ago, Loricus said:

But PanO already has that. The new stuff PanO has gotten so far is pretty good. I'm not sure where to go from here though. Maybe the new sectorials will open up a lot of freedom.

Also he's still not too popular.

PanO has 11 HI units excluding characters. The issue at hand is that if a 1-2 of them are too popular (say, Swiss and Hospitallers), the others seem redundant and pointless. So the goal is to strike a balance where different units open up different strategic approaches to the game, each in its own way, without one being clearly superior.

Montesas strike that balance pretty well. They're not awesome or autoinclude, but they give you something very useful in certain scenarios. You wouldn't compare them to Hospitallers because it's clear they offer such different approaches that it's apples and oranges. In thousands of replies in threads like this I haven't seen much hate on the Montesa. 

My suggestions in the previous pages to give Climbing Plus and/or Eclipse to Teutons, and Forward Delployment to GdA were meant to fill this gap. Give different units a specific tactical application, which is different from the others but not better in an obvious comparable way. 

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I don't think GdA need anything extra. They already got plenty to make them an interesting unit. On the other hand, Teutons are almost never used now that they don't have a link. I think they can really use eclipse grenades.

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Just now, Death said:

I don't think GdA need anything extra. They already got plenty to make them an interesting unit. On the other hand, Teutons are almost never used now that they don't have a link. I think they can really use eclipse grenades.

... or you know... a Link. Unlike Albi I'm fairly certain that some troops don't need a remake, just a different Duo/Haris/Core Profile would be enough.

Most of our HI are fine as they are as a troop, it's the individual Profiles that suck. KothS Specialist would be okay (maybe even with a MR), FKs could use a second Breaker Pistol, MA etc, but would be instantly good if they could Haris/Duo with other Knights in MO.

Orc AHD and Black Friar MR are my least favourite Profiles in PanO, they're dull and don't do anything worth existing on top of impressive amounts of bloat. The Kamau MSR at least gets a X-Visor for Discover and 0-8" MSR action, he is at least a unique Profile.

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@Albi86 like Montesa. He's tied for my favorite PanO unit. But if he is an example of the type of interesting unit PanO could get I'm afraid a large chunk of the PanO players in this thread would disagree.

Maybe some of the disconnect is there. When I say "you're suggesting balance improvements, I don't think it would be fair for PanO to get something like that", I'm not referring to someone who considers Montesa an example of what they should get. I'm not arguing with you. I whole heartedly agree that Montesa is a very interesting unit and stays well within the bounds of what feels "fair" to me.

You may not be on the same page as some of the other PanO players though.

15 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

The Kamau MSR at least gets a X-Visor for Discover and 0-8" MSR action, he is at least a unique Profile.

I'm surprised that's worth 3 points to you.

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17 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I'm surprised that's worth 3 points to you.

Emphasis on "at least unique" - still pretty crappy, but at least not vannilla crappy. Pretty horrible combination of Profile and Platform. X-Visor is serious bloat on a MSR as well. But a vanilla troop with a Profile that gets an X-Visor is still infinitely better than a Vanilla troop with the worst possible vanilla Profiles. BF MR adds insult to injury because he gets 3 things while the MSR gets 0.

Orc HD would at least not have to use WIP for everything it does. Orc AHD + Tinbot would have some synergy, Orc AHD + BSG would still be fairly terrible, but there isn't another HI Specialist with BSG. Orc AHD + Multi Rifle is a mid range HI combat Specialist without Frenzy and a gun with some punch. The last 2 Profiles start to look like competition to a Hospitaler Doc. MR AHD would also significantly improve the Haris witha backup weapon if the BSG or HMG bite it.

While I'd much prefer to see different changes than this, those are simple, effective and don't require new models.

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Unique but bad is the only thing that adds less than bland but acceptable.

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1 hour ago, Loricus said:

Unique but bad is the only thing that adds less than bland but acceptable.

Hey if thats what is necessaryto get you to agree that both could use some changes, fine by me.

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Unique but bad and bland but acceptable mostly only make it to fluffy lists.

 

Ideally every faction would be filled with profiles that are excellent in different ways providing stiff competition for what you want to field or for what option you prioritize.

This is not a problem exclusive to pano by any means, it is just that we suffer from it a tad more heavily since our niche is so specific.

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3 hours ago, Loricus said:

MSV2 with MSR is a perfect silver bullet if ya know what I mean.

Like the Black Friar Sniper in MO? Surprise surprise ;) I've not really used stun ammo yet though, usually the situation has called for a DA shot everyone so far. But that's because i usually deploy him for anti warband duties or pop out and snipe duties

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4 hours ago, Loricus said:

MSV2 with MSR is a perfect silver bullet if ya know what I mean.

 

23 minutes ago, T.I.A said:

Like the Black Friar Sniper in MO? Surprise surprise ;) I've not really used stun ammo yet though, usually the situation has called for a DA shot everyone so far. But that's because i usually deploy him for anti warband duties or pop out and snipe duties

*sigh* and you know who gets more use than a BF MSR from the Stun Ammo option? Correct - everyone who is already better than him. Stun is limited to B1 in active unlike DA, which means the Visor doesn't profit as much. TO OS MSR are much more likely to actually beat a TAG/HI in FTF. With Surprise Shot better against a Marut and against a Cutter/Avatar/Sphinx they are worse at hitting but also a lot less less likely to die, so can try more often. Whenever you bring him up I find a reason to see him as even less useful in comparison :( 

Swiss Guard Multirifle AHD Stun ARO is pretty damn impressive. Hospitaler MR B2 Stun is the kind of stuff you want when B2 DA is unlikely to scratch it.

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5 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

Hospitaler MR B2 Stun is the kind of stuff you want when B2 DA is unlikely to scratch it.

Stun on MR is also B1 (unless you are in link). 

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Just now, Eciu said:

Stun on MR is also B1 (unless you are in link). 

Yeah I was referring to a link (thus the comparison to DA)

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8 hours ago, Darkvortex87 said:

Play onyx. you'll find that the grass is not much green there.

or you'll like their playstyle and abandon Pano to CA.

 

Bizarrely my next force to do is onyx. I wonder if certain playstyles attract certain people

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Honestly, its coincidence for me since I just like how evil the Onxy force models look. lol

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The MSV helps with Dog Warrior smoke, and the stun works through Total Immunity. That's the silver bullet bit.

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