Question

So Bolts in a 3+ link get B2 Drop Bears in ARO. But generally you have to target the same target in ARO (no split burst). With Smoke that seems to mean you effectively get two chances to land smoke at one location.

Does this mean it's the same for Bolts - i.e., you can only land one mine in ARO - even if you succeed on two rolls, but you expend two of your three drop bears? Because I'm guessing you can't land two mines in one spot.

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22 minutes ago, Hachiman Taro said:

So Bolts in a 3+ link get B2 Drop Bears in ARO. But generally you have to target the same target in ARO (no split burst). With Smoke that seems to mean you effectively get two chances to land smoke at one location.

Does this mean it's the same for Bolts - i.e., you can only land one mine in ARO - even if you succeed on two rolls, but you expend two of your three drop bears? Because I'm guessing you can't land two mines in one spot.

It's the same issue with Pitchers. 

I'd place both so they are touching the target point. If you can't fit both in that area, only place one discard the other. 

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So it is possible, just not massively flexible?

 Also no spec fire in ARO because its a long skill right?

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11 minutes ago, Phototoxin said:

 Also no spec fire in ARO because its a long skill right?

Yes, but mostly because it's not an ARO skill.

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You know, I don't think I ever knew until this post that increasing burst used a second part of a disposable weapon. I can easily think of a few tournaments where I have had opponents double their Panzerfaust uses. 

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Is there any particular reason 2 markers can't coalesce?

Like, the smoke template which makes a smoke area, obviously we all play that you can walk models on top of it, and I'm pretty sure you could even throw eclipse smoke on top of it too.

What in the nature of being a marker prevents this?

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Smoke isn't a marker, Deployable Equipment is (for certain definitions of marker). They can't share the same space as another marker.

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10 minutes ago, inane.imp said:

They can't share the same space as another marker.

Why? What rule says this?

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6 hours ago, Spleen said:

Why? What rule says this?

After several wiki search, I admit you are correct on this part. I see no indication that they cannot overlap, as long as they are not placed on a vertical surface and must follow Deployment phase rules (I guess this part only apply to deployable equipment/weapon that you deploy during Deployment phase!), there are no other restrictions.

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7 hours ago, Spleen said:

Why? What rule says this?

Physics says this. A Marker, Figure or Trooper occupies it's entire Silhouette. Two objects cannot occupy the same space (Troops/Figures moving through Markers, Figures or Troops with a smaller or equal SIL Attribute is specifically allowed as an exception to normal physics). Therefore two Markers, Figures or Troops cannot end the turn in the same space.  

Therefore the Dropbears (S0 Markers, it's worse for Repeaters: S1 Markers) would need to be stacked on top of each other. We know that 'hovering' is not allowed (from general movement and deployment rules - paraphrasing - 'Makers, Figures and Troops need to be fully supported by the table'). And allowing SIL to support another SIL is just a can or worms you don't want to open (can a Superjumping Morlock jump on top of a Guija to get into B2B?).

The relevent section from 'Initiative and Deployment':

  • Unless otherwise agreed upon, troops [which in this case should be taken to include figures and markers] cannot deploy in a location without enough space to fit their entire base.

------ 

This is partly why the solution of placing both markers so that they touch at a point that has both markers equidistant from the firer is simple and fair. It limits the ability of the AROing player to spread their Markers for maximum coverage, whilst still granting them the advantage of their burst without being incongruent with the rest of general play.

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you can also reduce your B voluntarly to use only 1 Drop Bear

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1 hour ago, Darkvortex87 said:

you can also reduce your B voluntarly to use only 1 Drop Bear

Can I?

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16 minutes ago, Darek_CTR said:

Can I?

i think you can.

at least, i've always did with Panzerfausts or limited uses weapons.

 

BUT, looking at the wiki, i'm not really sure anymore

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Nothing says you have to shoot at full burst, only that you can

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I feel like @inane.imp's solution is the best. The rules don't say you lose them. They also don't say exactly how the mine marker has to be placed in relation to the desired location (doesn't say to centre it for example). It makes sense for them not to be in exactly the same space. So both touching the target location equally distant from the firer, removing one if they don't fit seems the most reasonable to me. And you can just throw one if you want.

The Targetless trait could really use some careful extra clarification though.

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Throwing Dropbears at B2 can also be used as a failsafe - if you absolutely want 1 to go down, its a lot more reliable. Especially if you don't have 5 Man Link Boni. Hitting with both still only drops one Mine Marker as you can't split B in ARO they have to be placed in the exact same place.

If you opt for B1 you could also place them as a camoless mine instead epending where you want them.

Drop Bears seem a tad bit difficult to use as well as somewhat unintuitive.

ARO at B1 and hit both? Place 1 Mine.

Targetless? Yes but only if there isn't a Camo Marker in the Trigger Area unless there also is a Target in in the Trigger Area. This is in no way clear if you're only looking at the Throwing weapon Profile. You simply have to know that it works that way. I didn't know till yesterday and never would have noticed until someone pointed out the Drop Bear Skill states an exception.

 

 

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@Teslarod. I nominate a point on the table. I place both Markers so they're touching this point. Both markers are fully supported by the table.

Why do I need to discard one?

What about that breaches the rules?

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quite franky, forcing the discard of a drop bear would be BS. youve thrown a disposable weapon, youve applied all the rules you damned well deserve to not get shafted out of the benefits

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52 minutes ago, inane.imp said:

@Teslarod. I nominate a point on the table. I place both Markers so they're touching this point. Both markers are fully supported by the table.

Why do I need to discard one?

What about that breaches the rules?

DROP BEAR SHORT SKILL / ARO
Attack
REQUIREMENTS

In the Reactive Turn, LoF to the Active trooper is required.

EFFECTS
  • Effects
  • This weapon is a modified version of Anti-Personnel Mines and has two different in-game uses, each with its weapon profile: as a Throwing Weapon and as a Deployable Weapon. When you use your Drop Bear, use the appropriate profile for your chosen method of deployment.
  • As a Throwing Weapon. A Drop Bear can be tossed or thrown, becoming a regular Anti-Personnel Mine when it touches the ground.
  • You do not need a target to throw a Drop Bear as a Throwing Weapon, simply point the desired location and make the corresponding Roll. If you pass the Roll, the Drop Bear is successfully deployed, placing a Mine Marker (MINE) at the Conclusion of the Order, and becomes an Anti-Personnel Mine.
  • This means that a Drop Bear never detonates during the same Order in which it is thrown as a Throwing Weapon.
  • As a Deployable Weapon. Using this deployment option, Drop Bears are identical to Anti-Personnel Mines, with the single peculiarity that they are placed on the table as a Mine Marker (MINE), not as a Camouflage Marker.
IMPORTANT!

Drop bears function like other throwing weapons that places markers (example pitcher) and 

Pitcher

 
 
Human Sphere N3 Content.

A support BS Weapon that shoots Deployable Repeaters, a range amplifier for Hackers.

A successful BS Roll allows players to place a Deployable Repeater Marker (REPEATER) at the point of impact.

 

You must place the marker AT the point of impact. Not touching the point of impact.

 

At the point of impact means that you must place the centre of the marker on the center of the point you designed with your attack.

 

BTW drop bears could use some clarification of the wording, especially this point:

You do not need a target to throw a Drop Bear as a Throwing Weapon, simply point the desired location and make the corresponding Roll. If you pass the Roll, the Drop Bear is successfully deployed (at the point of impact), placing a Mine Marker (MINE) at the Conclusion of the Order, and becomes an Anti-Personnel Mine.

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The marker is at the point of impact if it is touching the point of impact. I don't need to be at the centre of the train station to be at the train station.

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2 minutes ago, Hachiman Taro said:

The marker is at the point of impact if it is touching the point of impact. I don't need to be at the centre of the train station to be at the train station.

at the point of impact means a very specific things in games. usually it means that the center of the thing (in our case, the marker) must be placed on the point you choose.

if CB wanted to allow that deployment perhaps they could have wrote "in base contact with the point of impact" or "touching the point of impact".

 

if we want to get really technical/cheesy i'll say that the only way for 2 lines to touch the same point is to intersect, so it's not possible with solids

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2 minutes ago, Hachiman Taro said: The marker is at the point of impact if it is touching the point of impact. I don't need to be at the centre of the train station to be at the train station.

at the point of impact means a very specific things in games. usually it means that the center of the thing (in our case, the marker) must be placed on the point you choose.

if CB wanted to allow that deployment perhaps they could have wrote "in base contact with the point of impact" or "touching the point of impact".

 

if we want to get really technical/cheesy i'll say that the only way for 2 lines to touch the same point is to intersect, so it's not possible with solids

You're not wrong. You can interpret 'at' as 'centred on', but nothing other than your expectations supports that intreptation. Equally nothing supports my intreptation ('at' as 'touching').' At' can be taken to mean either.

Basically, it appears as if you're trying to find a way to prevent the player with Drop Bears from benefiting from a bonus they paid for, rather than trying to find a reasonable solution that accommodates all sides and still fits RAW. I fundamentally disagree with that approach.

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1 hour ago, inane.imp said:

You're not wrong. You can interpret 'at' as 'centred on', but nothing other than your expectations supports that intreptation. Equally nothing supports my intreptation ('at' as 'touching').' At' can be taken to mean either.

Basically, it appears as if you're trying to find a way to prevent the player with Drop Bears from benefiting from a bonus they paid for, rather than trying to find a reasonable solution that accommodates all sides and still fits RAW. I fundamentally disagree with that approach.

I'm not trying to prevent anything. I'm one of the benefitter from this "solution" of yours. Remember that there are a lot of profiles with pitcher, some of them can easily go linked. In my meta, B2 Pitcher is a thing.

 

I'm just saying that from memories I recall something from N2 regarding B2 pitchers.

So maybe @IJW Wartrader can light our way to the solution? or put this thing to the "FAQ" list?

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ARO B2 Pitchers isn't really an issue. They're a touch harder to remove but you tap out the Pitcher, adding maybe 1" to coverage.

What's the issue with allowing 2 to be placed if someone gets lucky? The firer stands a good chance of dying to an attack on normal rolls.

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