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Timothy Adan

Morpho-Scan, back from the dead...

Question

So, I decided to be a little silly and bring a lot of combat drop troops today. One o them was a Cadmus. My opponent, decided to bring a lot of holoechoes. The obvious question never actually occurred in the game, but we read through a lot of things before the game even started to try to find out.

 

The question is, what happens when the cadmus uses morpho scan on a holoecho accidently? If I choose poorly and pick a holoecho, does nothing happen? Do I lose my ability to morpho scan again? Do I get the stats of what the holoecho happens to be copying?

 

Similarly, if someone is duplicating a model using level 1 of holoprojector and I try to scan him, do I simply get the stats of the person with the holoprojector? Or through some wizardry do I get the stats of the model he is duplicating?

 

Thanks much.

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This is a great question! Doesn't look like an officially resolved question as far as I can tell.

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Striga

Based on a few terms in Striga, I would play it as such:

Scanning a Holoprojector L1 gives you true stats of the trooper, not the fake profile. Striga works on organics, like a DNA scan, so the electrically generated image wouldn't fool anything.

L2 - Holoechoes are technically markers. Striga Morpho Scan specifies that you can only scan Figures, not markers. Declaring a Scan against a holoecho would be much the same as declaring it on a camo marker: simply not a legitimate declaration.

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You get nothing.

Striga specifies that it works on troops. Holoechoes are not troops. 

Boilerplate: This skill is a leftover from N2 that has not yet been updated to N3, so it's not set up with labels, requirements and effects laid out in the same way that N3 skills are. But I feel 100% confident that morphoscanning a holoecho gives you nothing. 

If it's considered an attack (I don't know that it is) it would remove the holoecho, though. 

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Its a great way to reveal fake Salidins though. :)

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10 hours ago, macfergusson said:

L2 - Holoechoes are technically markers. Striga Morpho Scan specifies that you can only scan Figures, not markers. Declaring a Scan against a holoecho would be much the same as declaring it on a camo marker: simply not a legitimate declaration.

I disagree with this assertion because of bullet point four of the holoechoes state, where the echoes are considered real troopers for the purposes of AROs, LOF and activating enemy weapons.

So, no, it's not the same as declaring it against a camo marker.  

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Yeah, we had looked around for a while and noticed that nothing existed. What Solkan says is the issue with how this works.

 

So for Holoprojector level 1, what macfergusson said is what I expected (it made the most sense).

 

For Holoprojector level 2, holoechoes technically count as troopers, so you can pick them to be scanned. How I figure it works is that you are told it has no stats (much like if the holoecho has mimetism, but it can't be used). The other half of the question is whether or not that wastes your morphoscan use, since you only get to use it once.

 

What is funny is that morpho scan and holoechoes existed in N2 and yet I never saw anything about this interaction back then either.

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3 hours ago, solkan said:

 

I disagree with this assertion because of bullet point four of the holoechoes state, where the echoes are considered real troopers for the purposes of AROs, LOF and activating enemy weapons.

So, no, it's not the same as declaring it against a camo marker.  

Morpho-Scan is a Special Skill, not a weapon, except possibly when used in the second fashion as a coup de grace.

Holoecho is definitely a marker state, because it says right in the rules text that you are deploying holoechoes as Markers, and it allows the use of Surprise Shot.

There is no directly applicable rules text to this interaction, hence my statement that this is how I would play it.

All in all, best case scenario using Morpho Scan is a waste of an order if you pick the wrong target, if not actually wasting the single use of the skill you get, so I would recommend not declaring it against a set of holoechoes even if you do consider it to be legal.

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yeah. I mean, that specific situation wont come up again because my opponent was trying to get the patroclos/achilles shell game combo to work, then found out that it can't work (but until we found out that it doesn't work, I was intent on morpho scanning achilles, which is why the question of holoechoes came up in the first place.)

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He's gotta reveal himself some time! But yeah, there's the whole "fireteam leader" marker that would kind of ruin the surprise of which is which, iirc.

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13 hours ago, Locksmith said:

If it's considered an attack (I don't know that it is) it would remove the holoecho, though. 

Negative, being subject of an attack (successful or otherwise) is not a cancellation clause.

Spoiler

 

The Holoecho state of a holographic decoy is canceled, whenever:

  • It is successfully Discovered.
  • It enters base to base contact with a model.
  • It receives a successful hit that forces him to make an ARM/BTS Roll, or a Critical hit.
  • It breaks Coherency with the other Holoechoes.
  • The real Holoprojector L2 bearer's Holoecho state is cancelled for any reason.

 

Morphoscan does not cause an ARM/BTS roll nor does it count as a Discover nor does it put the Striga model in base to base with the target.

 

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6 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Negative, being subject of an attack (successful or otherwise) is not a cancellation clause.

Morpho doesn't roll to hit, so if it's an attack it automatically hits, and being hit does remove holoechoes. 

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1 minute ago, Locksmith said:

Morpho doesn't roll to hit, so if it's an attack it automatically hits, and being hit does remove holoechoes. 

You're going to have to supply a citation for that, 'cause you just claimed smoke/nimbus grenades remove echoes.

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1 minute ago, Locksmith said:

Morpho doesn't roll to hit, so if it's an attack it automatically hits, and being hit does remove holoechoes. 

@Mahtamori quoted the cancellation conditions for holoecho in his post, and that is not one of them. Being hit and having to make a ARM/BTS roll, or being hit by a Crit, are cancellation conditions for holoecho. Being hit by an attack in and of itself does not.

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As I said in my post, Morpho Scan is a leftover rule from N2 that hasn't been updated in N3 yet. There's no reason to expect it would be called out in the cancellations of a skill that has been updated for N3. 

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13 hours ago, Locksmith said:

There's no reason to expect it would be called out in the cancellations of a skill that has been updated for N3. 

Why ? Fireteam was in HSN2 and the N3 rules still made reference to it even if the fireteam had not been updated.

For example, Suppressive Fire cancellation lists say that joining a fireteam (which is a N2 HS skill) will drop you out of Supp Fire.

So they could very well write in Holoecho N3 cancellation that getting hit by a N2 Moprho Scan even if there is no roll will remove the holoecho.

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4 hours ago, Robock said:

Why ? Fireteam was in HSN2 and the N3 rules still made reference to it even if the fireteam had not been updated.

For example, Suppressive Fire cancellation lists say that joining a fireteam (which is a N2 HS skill) will drop you out of Supp Fire.

So they could very well write in Holoecho N3 cancellation that getting hit by a N2 Moprho Scan even if there is no roll will remove the holoecho.

If it's your contention that Fireteams and Morphoscan are equivalently common rules interactions then OK I guess, you're right. 

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We can't have a discussion based on what rules text is not written. We just have to work with what is there until an official clarification is made.

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You can remove my fireteam example and use any other example of less common interaction if you wish, it doesn't change that the absolute statement "there is no reason to expect ..." is false.  Here is another example.

Special Terrain N3 Rules give example of Hostility Level, referring back to N2 Paradiso, and that rule interaction is something that, like MorphoScan, I have yet to encounter in any casual or tournament play since N3 came out.

The N3 book will refer to rules found in older books that had not been updated (when N3 came out) when it see fit. And they did not include being merely scanned as a cancellation clause for holoechoes, you need to either make a ARM/BTS roll or get Crited.

Speaking of being scanned, I did not check, but how does Data Scan interact with holoechoes? (I address the question at large, not at anyone in particular).

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12 hours ago, Robock said:

Speaking of being scanned, I did not check, but how does Data Scan interact with holoechoes? (I address the question at large, not at anyone in particular).

Good one! Data Scan needs a model, so it won't work on an Echo

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