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Andre

New player Tag questions

Question

I have no doubt this has been answered a bunch but I am just not finding it, or the answers I find are still unclear.

Walk me through were I mess up my understanding of the rules. 
scenario 1
I am the active player and only have 1 order.
I spend an order on a tag I own to dismount, because I have activated the tag this will trigger aro's from the enemy 2 inches in front of the tag. However because I use the new profile for the full order, if I place myself behind my tag in base to base contact he will not have line of sight and can not shoot me pilot or tag?
Could he chain rifle my pilot or tag? Would that be an intuitive attack?
could he engage aro my tag? At the start of my next turn will I have 1 or zero orders?

scenario 2
I am the active player.
I have a possessed enemy Gecko Tag. Can I spend an order to dismount the pilot? If so do I control the pilot? What if the pilot was a ghost remote pilot?
Any faq's or new rules preventing me from simply jumping this tag to death?


Last question and not about tags, but missile launchers in blast mode.
I am the reactive player.
My enemy's fireteam heris leader pokes his head around the corner. I aro with a missile in blast mode, I lay down the round template and I will hit his other two fireteam members.  My opponent will shoot.
In the face to face roll my enemy scored a crit on a 15 and I rolled a 1.
I take a wound thanks to the crit, the fireteam leader is fine, the other two members of his team have to make three armor saves each.
Could he have moved his fireteam up, provoked my aro, shot me with the link leader, and dodged with the other 2 troops breaking the link?
 
 

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19 answers to this question

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1: it's the pilot or remote pilot activating not the TAG so AROs are only against the pilot.  You just appear behind the TAG.

2: No, you can't make them get out. 

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2 hours ago, Andre said:

I have no doubt this has been answered a bunch but I am just not finding it, or the answers I find are still unclear.

Walk me through were I mess up my understanding of the rules. 
scenario 1
I am the active player and only have 1 order.
I spend an order on a tag I own to dismount, because I have activated the tag this will trigger aro's from the enemy 2 inches in front of the tag. However because I use the new profile for the full order, if I place myself behind my tag in base to base contact he will not have line of sight and can not shoot me pilot or tag?

 

2 hours ago, Andre said:

Could he chain rifle my pilot or tag? Would that be an intuitive attack?

Two different issues:

1.  If you activate a model someplace where a chain rifle ARO will cover other of your models, all of those models get hit.  The ARO BS attack with the chain rifle gets declared against the activated model in line of sight.  It cannot be placed as an intuitive attack because intuitive attack isn't an ARO skill, but the fact that the attack covers other models doesn't make it an intuitive attack.

2 hours ago, Andre said:


could he engage aro my tag? At the start of my next turn will I have 1 or zero orders?

I'm confused by your follow up question here.  You don't lose orders because one of your models is engaged.

 

2 hours ago, Andre said:



Last question and not about tags, but missile launchers in blast mode.
I am the reactive player.
My enemy's fireteam heris leader pokes his head around the corner. I aro with a missile in blast mode, I lay down the round template and I will hit his other two fireteam members.  My opponent will shoot.
In the face to face roll my enemy scored a crit on a 15 and I rolled a 1.
I take a wound thanks to the crit, the fireteam leader is fine, the other two members of his team have to make three armor saves each.
Could he have moved his fireteam up, provoked my aro, shot me with the link leader, and dodged with the other 2 troops breaking the link?

In the active turn, the whole fire team performs the same order, even though the Fireteam rules mean that that performance isn't quite the same as normal.  The active player doesn't get to declare two different orders for the two parts of the Fireteam to perform, or declare three skills or perform strange combinations of skills.  So, no, in the active turn it's not possible to declare "For the second skill of the order, the leader declares BS attack, and these two declare Dodge."  

 

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3 hours ago, Andre said:

I take a wound thanks to the crit, the fireteam leader is fine, the other two members of his team have to make three armor saves each.

This is false, is it not?

"» The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful. "


Since your attack roll was not successful (it was beaten by the crit), the others don't get hit.

 

Nevermind, I read the example again.

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2 hours ago, WargameHub said:

1: it's the pilot or remote pilot activating not the TAG so AROs are only against the pilot.  You just appear behind the TAG.

2: No, you can't make them get out. 

Thank you for the quick answer.
If it is not to much to ask, and so I can explain it to the group better then "WargameHub" said so, could you show me the rules on that?

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2 hours ago, WargameHub said: 1: it's the pilot or remote pilot activating not the TAG so AROs are only against the pilot.  You just appear behind the TAG.

2: No, you can't make them get out. 

Thank you for the quick answer.

If it is not to much to ask, and so I can explain it to the group better then "WargameHub" said so, could you show me the rules on that?

Here is the thread, hopefully it works as I'm stuck on Tapatalk at the moment and it's being argumentative. Took 20 minutes just to find the thing.

some important questions about the pilot rule

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=45624&share_tid=47181&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Einfinitytheforums%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F47181-some-important-questions-about-the-pilot-rule&share_type=t

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8 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Short version, see http://infinitythewiki.com/en/General_Movement_Rules bullet 2:

  • By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order.

My emphasis in red.

So what's supposed to happen if player has a TAG or Motorcycle rider and wants to declare Move-Move and declare Dismount for the second Move?  Do you tell the player that they can't dismount on the second Move?  Because it doesn't make sense to try to apply the profile change retroactively to the previous move.

 

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OK, fine, the one time I don't bother to add 'and make sure you do this as the first Skill of the Order for the sake of your sanity'... :giving-up::thumb-up:

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9 hours ago, WargameHub said:

Here is the thread, hopefully it works as I'm stuck on Tapatalk at the moment and it's being argumentative. Took 20 minutes just to find the thing.

some important questions about the pilot rule

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=45624&share_tid=47181&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Einfinitytheforums%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3F%2Ftopic%2F47181-some-important-questions-about-the-pilot-rule&share_type=t

Fixed link :

 

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13 hours ago, IJW Wartrader said:

OK, fine, the one time I don't bother to add 'and make sure you do this as the first Skill of the Order for the sake of your sanity'... :giving-up::thumb-up:

Is this for reals the best answer we have for this? Move+DismountMove could be extremely useful. Such as driving 8" to the armory door then dismounting to go in. RAW appears to say you can't shoot the bike for an entire 8" stretch.

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7 hours ago, DerBrizon said:

Is this for reals the best answer we have for this? Move+DismountMove could be extremely useful. Such as driving 8" to the armory door then dismounting to go in. RAW appears to say you can't shoot the bike for an entire 8" stretch.

This is always how we played it in my meta.  Our thought was, you do your first movement as the TAG/Bike/whatever, move your 6 - 8 inches and see if there are any ARO's.  If no ARO, then dismount and be done with that order.  If there is an ARO, then you have to decide if you want to dismount and leave an unopposed ARO or stay mounted and deal with the threat.

I know that kind of makes things weird in the sense that everything is supposed to be simultaneous and thus, if you dismount, you use the pilot profile for the full order, but it seems to me that the spirit of the dismount option would allow you to do it at the end.  You would still take AROs to the pilot profile if you dismount though.

I like to think of it as driving with the door of your TAG open while you move for the quick exit at the end.  This way, you get the TAG movement, but people can still shoot at your pilot if you choose to go that route.

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Am I the only one wishing that dismount was simply a full order skill that activates the pilot and not the tag ... this would solve most issues I think.

Just to make sure I understand this let me know what would be breaking the rules here.

Player A spends an order to activate his Gecko. He moves his Gecko 4 inches in to base to base with an s2 objective as his first part of his order. He then asks for aro's.
Player B has a line trooper declare shoot with her rifle as an aro on the tag.
Player A declares dismount as his second short order and puts his pilot in to base to base contact behind the tag and also touching the objective.
Player B not having line of sight to the pilot because the tag in the way, auto fails her aro.   

Is this ITS at a tournament correct?

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Making it a full order would definitely make more sense.  As much as I like abusing the 6 inch movement of my TAG before dismounting, I can totally see the argument for making it a full order.

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Posted (edited)

To repeat - you cannot move 6" with a TAG or 8" with a Biker and then dismount with the second Skill, because the 'new' profile applies for the whole Order. In the same way, this means that you cannot move the TAG and then move the Pilot in the same Order.

Edited by IJW Wartrader
Typos.
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13 hours ago, Andre said:

Am I the only one wishing that dismount was simply a full order skill that activates the pilot and not the tag ... this would solve most issues I think.

No, you're not the only one. 

Personally, I'd really like to be able to have an Aragoto hacker zoom 8" up to the objective room, dismount, and then move 4" inside.

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Should the rules simply move away from spending orders on a TAG and now spend them on the pilot instead?

Dismount becomes a short order skill for the pilot only possible as the first action. This way your pilot spends orders just like everyone else using either their mounted profile or dismounted profile. 

EDIT:

Mounting the TAG becomes whatever/mount all using the pilots profile.

TAG skill/dismount, or mount/TAG skill seem fine to me as long as the rules are clear which profiles get hit. But i guess from the current rules CB doesn't want this.

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To tag onto what Wartrader said, I decided to actually look up the rules for dismount.

  • MOV values indicate the maximum distance the unit can move, but there is no minimum. Troopers do not have to exhaust their movement when they declare Move.
  • By declaring Move, a trooper may go Prone or revert back to the Normal standing state at the start of his Movement at no cost. Remember that troopers have reduced mobility while Prone.
  • By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order.
  • A trooper can vault over any obstacle not higher than his Silhouette Template (as determined by his Silhouette Attribute) at no cost, without declaring Jump or Climb.
  • After Moving one of your figures, you can leave it facing any direction.
  • When declaring any form of Movement, you must specify the exact route the trooper will follow, so that the opponent can declare the appropriate AROs.
  • Troopers have a LoF arc of 360˚ while they are moving.
  • A trooper's Movement ends automatically whenever he enters base to base contact with an enemy, even if the movement route specified is cut short as a result.

See the red highlighted text.  It isn't simply that it makes more sense to dismount at the start, it actually says you must do it at the start of the order.  So, my meta has been doing it wrong and I will fix that.  :)

Wiki link is below.

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/General_Movement_Rules

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18 hours ago, Andre said:

Am I the only one wishing that dismount was simply a full order skill that activates the pilot and not the tag ... this would solve most issues I think.

Maybe not an Entire Order, the game has plenty of entire order and short skill declarations for what I can only describe as quality of life effects that in no way makes an order containing such skills very efficient - above all I'm referring to Entamaphobia (fear of doors) that many Infinity players have. Wishful thinking:

Vehicle: When activating a pilot inside a vehicle, for the duration of the order apply the skills, weapons and stats of the vehicle. Use the pilot's stats in place of any stat with a -
Dismount/mount: On spending an order on the pilot, the pilot may dismount or mount their vehicle in base to base contact before activating. 
Fury: The pilot is considered to own this characteristic and must mount or dismount as part of the impetuous order to fulfil the Impetuous movement requirement.
Pilot-vehicle relationship: Order generation is tied to the well-being of the pilot.
Possession: A piloted TAG without a pilot can be possessed. A TAG with the pilot inside will go for a hard reset (IMM-1, 1 turn).
Sepsitor: A vehicle can not be sepsitored, its allegiance depends on the pilot. A pilot inside a vehicle can be sepsitored if the vehicle is hit with such an attack.
Stuff that's considered vehicles: TAG (typically full set of stats, skills and weapons), motorcycles (typically a profile with higher MOV and the odd extra weapon or equipment)

Stuff that would be interesting to discuss:

Fairy Dust: while most TAGs have BTS 6, there are some Heavy Infantry with higher WIP and BTS 9, so it's arguable that TAGs in general need this protection just as much or near to it. It's also arguable that possibly this shouldn't necessarily be from the same program.
Possession: Always found it weird that this is tied to troop type. IMO, possession programs should target Ghost models, not TAGs.
Motorcycles: Failed guts roll results in mandatory dismount as part of Guts Roll movement?

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