TwoDee

OOC: Can we nip this "withholding batreps" tactic in the bud?

436 posts in this topic

Hmmm I see where you are coming from, but frankly this banking reports is one of the only way to represent a covert strike or some sort of meaningful tactic other than just slowly grinding your enemy down, and it's also one of the few ways to blind spies to some extent if done properly.

Clever commanders will expect such moves and prepare their defenses accordingly.

Though I do agree that it sucks from a linking your report to your opponent point of view...

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Nice sentiment, and good luck. Won't help though...stuff like this (including this exact "tactic") plagued the first campaign and no safeguards have been added since then.

 

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5 minutes ago, Vaulsc said:

Oh please.

This tactic assumes that the theater you register your game in will actually affect the overall outcome. It didn't in flamestrike, and there's been no indication it will matter in wotan. Furthermore, does it really bother you that much whether one particular faction "wins"? The criteria for winning and losing is most likely to be arbitrary and will not allow factions to influence the result by way of some clever strategy.

I think you and I are on the same page here despite you presenting it as an adversarial thing.  My point is that if everyone is holding onto their battle reports like they're poker hands in the hopes of a temporary shot at "winning," nobody is actually participating at all.

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To be fair, this may well happen to some extent simply due to the fact that it takes time to write up games.

Especially to a good standard.

But I've long and loudly advocated a publishing limit as well as a creating limit (though, I must admit to being VERY disappointed by the 14/week game cap).

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Initially I agreed with the sentiment although I do like the idea of it simulating a coordinated strike. However a cap would still be a good idea as even with such tactics there would be a resource limitation.

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Consider this though. Any reports added at such a late date would not be read and rated as widely, so even if they are of good quality, they'd count for less in total.

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@TwoDee hey I sent you a PM about this, can you check it and get back to me? I have a question.

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I agree with John Tenzer. Holding onto wins until you decide to mass publish them, feels like gaming the system and abusing it. We are proud as a couple that we don't abuse loopholes to "win at all costs". That is exactly what this is. We don't want to be that community and we should not advocate for that kind of behavior or condone it. It does go against the spirit of the game. In my opinion.

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6 minutes ago, John Tenzer said:

 

It's not simulating a coordinated strike, it's just gaming META! 

"Simulating a coordinated strike" would be if you set a distinct date when all your players actually play at a certain area and immediately write down and register their written reports within a very short timespan after the game date. 

It does initially feel a bit gamey. But we've all got real lives, this is our hobby. Actually coordinating everyone to play at the same time is patently ridiculous.

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I agree that it's not very sporting. Winning is cool and all, but this is supposed to be bringing us together to have fun showing off and appreciating each others engagement with this game we all love. I'd much rather read and write finely crafted battle reports than drop 100 detailless reports I'll never be able to catch up with all at once for the sake of winning. Fun is more important.

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19 minutes ago, Bobman said:

It does initially feel a bit gamey. But we've all got real lives, this is our hobby. Actually coordinating everyone to play at the same time is patently ridiculous.

Sorry my phone is acting up, I disagree with this as being a valid reason. We were able to coordinate assaults last year effectively without doing that. It takes communication to find out what kind of availability your players will have during a certain time frame and you set your attacks based on that. Saying we're doing this for "x" reason or "y" reason is just trying to justify something that you know feels gamey or wrong.

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For a start I'm not sure why you've all latched on to me, it wasn't even my idea. What I said was initially I disliked the practice but seen from another angle I can appreciate other theories.

Secondly it really depends on what sort of time frame you are thinking of. 'A very short time span' as I quoted in the other post is wholly unreasonable. Some players will have not yet played a game. To envisage coordinating them to play and report 'immediately' is wishful thinking. 

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46 minutes ago, Terrordactyl said:

I agree that it's not very sporting. Winning is cool and all, but this is supposed to be bringing us together to have fun showing off and appreciating each others engagement with this game we all love. I'd much rather read and write finely crafted battle reports than drop 100 detailless reports I'll never be able to catch up with all at once for the sake of winning. Fun is more important.

No one said they are detail-less reports, just that they held onto them until later. By saying it's "gaming the system" is saying that you're upset that people are playing the game in the system, even though that's how it's supposed to be. It's a game. If they are actually playing them and doing decent reports, it shouldn't matter when they put them in, they are just doing it a different way (strategically) than you are. Down-voting reports just because it's an opponents win would be taking advantage of the system, as that's not it's purpose.

 

And before everyone goes on the witch hunt, while I support the option of holding onto reports, I'll mention that I don't do it, as I wouldn't have enough reports to make it matter.

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I personally find holding onto reports gamey as well. If you have multiple reports to spam at once you prevent back and forth by putting in a points padding and preventing an actual back and forth. If those 5 games were spread out over 6-7 days, then there can be a much stronger back and forth as opponents see the score is close and get games in to prevent it. A faction can coordinate a 3-day blitz where they have all individuals run games in that territory and 3 days is a good amount of time to set up a game especially if coordinated over a weekend or holiday.

Holding games is working the META to your advantage and disallowing reasonable response from the defending faction. It doesn't allow a narrative that makes sense or is at all enthralling.

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@Bobman: Don't worry, I am not punching on you as a person particularly, just using your quotes as a hook for counterarguments

Quote

Holding games is working the META to your advantage and disallowing reasonable response from the defending faction. It doesn't allow a narrative that makes sense or is at all enthralling.

This is exactly the intention behind using this "Stalling/Spam-Technique"!  Every other argument for it is - let's be honest about it - just a snow job. 

3 hours ago, Bobman said:

For a start I'm not sure why you've all latched on to me, it wasn't even my idea. What I said was initially I disliked the practice but seen from another angle I can appreciate other theories.

Secondly it really depends on what sort of time frame you are thinking of. 'A very short time span' as I quoted in the other post is wholly unreasonable. Some players will have not yet played a game. To envisage coordinating them to play and report 'immediately' is wishful thinking. 

I can assure you based on our experience as High Commanders, that it's neither "unreasonable" nor "wishfull thinking". In fact it worked pretty well for us last time - though it needed the right (amount of) people and proper and tight organization. Like this:

1 hour ago, theGricks said:

 A faction can coordinate a 3-day blitz where they have all individuals run games in that territory and 3 days is a good amount of time to set up a game especially if coordinated over a weekend or holiday.

 

Of course, not every factions player can (or could, back then) participate in this Blitz due to contradicting real life commitments, but this is something you can or could take into account and deal with, properly. That's life, plain and simple. 

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Personally, I created a battle report as soon as the game started.  Just the basic stuff to create the entry (BTW, thanks to BoW to making that process go a LOT easier!)

I just haven't finished the game so I can't update the BatRep with more details yet.

 

It's like a FLASH-priority contact report.

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Does a game "count" immediately when you create it or only when you go public?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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43 minutes ago, JoshTheStampede said:

Does a game "count" immediately when you create it or only when you go public?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Only when published does it count.

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Damn the atmosphere in this campaign is getting toxic quickly again.....just now I have been called out for ADVOCATING Banking battle reports and gaming the system, basically being called a filthy cheater o the WGC Infinity group, just for stating here that it's one of the few possible tactics that have so far been used during the campaigns other than a simple slug fest, even mentioning that I understand why some people wouldn't like it though.

Seriously, people need to chill out a bit, I really don't get the ultra high tension that apparently hides behind the surface of some players in this campaign...

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I'd say just ignore them, some people will always get butthurt about stuff that no sane person would ever get mad about. That said I am personally in favour of no report banking. Simply because I enjoy the slow back and forth, logging in in the evening and seeing a faction doing really well in one area and then seeing a completely different picture in the morning and then a different picture again the next evening etc. etc. etc. 

Plus a coordinated strike seems really cool (the planning that goes into it, the execution) but I definitely do understand that it might be difficult to pull off. I also understand that some people don't have the time to play a game and then write a nice report immediately after.

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3 hours ago, Yasashii Fuyu said:

Damn the atmosphere in this campaign is getting toxic quickly again.....just now I have been called out for ADVOCATING Banking battle reports and gaming the system, basically being called a filthy cheater o the WGC Infinity group, just for stating here that it's one of the few possible tactics that have so far been used during the campaigns other than a simple slug fest, even mentioning that I understand why some people wouldn't like it though.

Seriously, people need to chill out a bit, I really don't get the ultra high tension that apparently hides behind the surface of some players in this campaign...

Yeah worth trying to be a bit more Zen about it all mate.

Some just can't contain the 'competitive nature even in a more narrative event like this.

Others just have personal expectation levels that will not be met by the format  (and perhaps lack the ability or desire to accept that)

Either way just focus as you have been doing on great content and helping and guiding your faction comrades.

 

Try not to get too worked up over these types of things.

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