MATRAKA14

Should USARF keep a tag at the end of tagline?

46 posts in this topic

Everyone knows about ariadna sectorials having a bad time making limited insertion lists, usarf is no exception, you can make some lists with 3 blackjacks, or try luck with multiple devil dogs with the unknown ranger, maybe a minutemen core with a marauder haris but thats it, no more options for a 300 points list. (don't even think about a 400 points)

Scarface is not a good option to fix this because his cost splits between 2 models, the anaconda could help a lot in this situation.

The only concern is the quite bad profile of the anaconda, well at least it suits the main theme of slow troops in USARF.

 

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Why just USARF?

I wouldn't call the Anaconda profile bad. It's just not a heavy TAG like you see in most factions.

Anyways, I think a lot of the Season 8 ITS rules, and especially Tagline rules specifically, are kind of experiments that CB is deciding what to keep and what needs to be temporary. It will be interesting to see what they decide for next season.

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The Anaconda's not a run&gun down the middle TAG if you use her that way of course she's going to die. as TAGS go i'd say the two of them are fairly equal for all their differences but the Anaconda has in my book two big advantages 1) she doesn't have frenzy meaning she can always benefit from cover 2) when the TAG gets wrecked the operator can bust out and you still have a Spitfire on a pretty good LI platform. 

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While I think the answer is that all Ariadna sectorials+vanilla need to be able to keep a TAG if missions continue to emerge that are oriented around them (esp the last couple), I know what the OP is trying to say in that certain sectorials (US, MRRF, and to some extent, Scots) really struggle in the limited insertion department to make a 300pt 10 order list (so 30pts per model average) when a good 90% of models in their range are less than that cost. 

  • Now MRRF actually gets the Anaconda already, but you'll notice that pretty much the only way to get a limited insertion list for them is to have both an expensive link (25pts per model+) Anaconda AND Equipe Mirage, which is about as mono-build as it gets. 
  • Scots at least get Wulvers, Greys, Mormaers 2nd Batallion Scots, McMurrough, who amp the cost quite substantially. They have issues scoring of course (though even SAS arent cheap) but it functions. 
  • Vanilla is obviously fine, and TAK will be too. 
  • But you turn to US and narrow down to models over 30 and...well. Your options are pretty limited. Assuming a similar core as the French (average of 25+pts per model) you're still needing Unknown Ranger and Blackjacks to come close, and likely Van Zant too. I've also tried and yes it just about fits with Marauders, Minutemen, VZ AND Unknown Ranger....  I mean again it literally works, but it's just not flexible.

So there are some problems here where a few of the sects are kind of being left out in the cold a bit here in this sort of format. Having a TAG solves both that problem and the increasing emphasis on TAG scoring in some of the newer missions, which all but MRRF won't be able to compete after TAGLINE. 

Flavorwise, I always thought it'd be cool if we just got a literal tank in Ariadna instead of a heavy TAG. Super durable, shooty, but slow as molasses and Maggy sized huge base which makes for some difficult mobility issues. It's something I'm testing anyway for some homebrew scenarios for a narrative campaign :) 


 

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I kinda want either an archaic TAG (used to be a defined term in second edition that never got used, I think) or a Blackjack model that is stylized like Ripley's Power Loader. 

latest?cb=20090515234349

Edit:

What is this, a picture for ANTS? Let me try again.


1zrL2Xt.jpg

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To be fair, I think the lack of TAGs is part of the overall flavor of Ariadna. 

Its a faction of normal people with limited tech but a lot of tricks.

in terms of game balance a faction that thrives on order count will struggle a bit in limited, but that's part of the game. the abundance of AP, DTW and T2 lessens the issue very much.

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Just now, Albi86 said:

To be fair, I think the lack of TAGs is part of the overall flavor of Ariadna. 

Its a faction of normal people with limited tech but a lot of tricks.

in terms of game balance a faction that thrives on order count will struggle a bit in limited, but that's part of the game. the abundance of AP, DTW and T2 lessens the issue very much.

Vanila Ariadna doesn't struggle with Limited Insertion. It's just the individual sectorials. I play Vanilla with a single combat group regularly.

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Only MRRF has a serious issue here. I would rather see a ARM 5 motorbike type unit than a TAG.

Usa and caledonia are fine imho. Not amazing, but there are ok options considering that it's not Ariadna's strong suit.

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I'm not sure how common this format is, but 400 point Limited Insertion lists are impossible to build in USARF. I checked. So not fine, exactly, but could be corrected with a couple of AVA tweaks or maybe one new elite ISC.

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I really, really, really don't want to see motorcycles in FRRM, let alone some ARM 5 monstrosity. FRRM is fast through the ability to deploy rapidly and (almost) entirely made up of units that are regular/non-impetuous. bikes don't really seem to have a place in their style, or at least how i envision their style to be.

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1 minute ago, Saint said:

I really, really, really don't want to see motorcycles in FRRM, let alone some ARM 5 monstrosity. FRRM is fast through the ability to deploy rapidly and (almost) entirely made up of units that are regular/non-impetuous. bikes don't really seem to have a place in their style, or at least how i envision their style to be.

I would pretty much agree, with how they are currently. A big motorcycle doesn't really fit there. They are more fast/advanced deployment and dig in. I also personally like the idea of motorcycles in general, but find them lacking in terms of game mechanics whenever I try to use them.

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1 minute ago, macfergusson said:

I would pretty much agree, with how they are currently. A big motorcycle doesn't really fit there. They are more fast/advanced deployment and dig in. I also personally like the idea of motorcycles in general, but find them lacking in terms of game mechanics whenever I try to use them.

I try so hard to make my Mavericks works, it never goes well; Though i'm also not great at this game so i can't really say which has the greater influence on bikes not working, them or me...

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I also want a haris of loup garoups mounted on riot horses, a wiesel mini tank for everyone and a tag for tak. but lets keep the focus of the thread. I really dislike the situation of ITS going against the supposed flavour of the faction, I'm fine with ariadna not having hackers but at least give me alternative tools to bypass the objectives that need a hacker. instead we have merc hackers, those mercs don't feet better than a ariadna profile with hacker device. same happens with tagline or limited insertion. And don't miss read me on this, limited insertion is really fun, but its not fun to be unable to play it because you have chosen a sectorial before the rules even existed.

Having said this, CB does not come back to factions for regular updates to profiles, they seem to prefer anual updates, but some times gives profiles to some factions like knauf, (not even close to be enough for mrrf but its far better than nothing) and so the addition of an already existing merc profile could more or less mitigate the limited insertion problems.

I don't want to transform this thread in to another ariadna tag now, yes everyone here wants it to happen in some form or another, but its not going to happen soon.

 

P.D. my concerns about the anaconda profile are easy to see, just take a look to the geko and the iguana, the first one is far cheaper, and the second one is far stronger for just 9 more points. All the tags got buffed during tagline except the iguana and the anaconda, liked or not that's an indirect nerf to an already mediocre and expensive profile

 

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Which ITS scenarios do you feel unplayable without bringing a hacker? I can't recall the last time I did anything with a hacker in Ariadna, unless it was just basic button pushing with a Volunteer fireteam and Isobel (hacking being completely irrelevant to that).

Comparing units across factions is generally a recipe for madness, but looking at Geckos and Iguanas specifically:

The Gecko is 9 points cheaper at most, that isn't a massive difference, and the Anaconda is generally better in it's stat-line. Escape System adds something to the cost anyways, I'd say.

The Iguana is another 9 point jump, putting the Anaconda squarely in the middle in terms of cost. Here, too, the Iguana is generally better in it's stat-line but not incredibly so. We have an extra two inches of movement, and one more point of BS. Both have some form of evacuation device. Both have a DTW, the HMG and Spitfire are fairly similar, and the Anaconda picks up a Panzerfaust. The Operator has 2 more points of Armor, but is also vulnerable to hacking.

All told, they really are fairly linearly matched to their increasing price. If you personally don't like the Anaconda, that's fine, but it is definitely not a bad TAG.

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29 minutes ago, macfergusson said:

Which ITS scenarios do you feel unplayable without bringing a hacker? I can't recall the last time I did anything with a hacker in Ariadna, unless it was just basic button pushing with a Volunteer fireteam and Isobel (hacking being completely irrelevant to that).

Comparing units across factions is generally a recipe for madness, but looking at Geckos and Iguanas specifically:

The Gecko is 9 points cheaper at most, that isn't a massive difference, and the Anaconda is generally better in it's stat-line. Escape System adds something to the cost anyways, I'd say.

The Iguana is another 9 point jump, putting the Anaconda squarely in the middle in terms of cost. Here, too, the Iguana is generally better in it's stat-line but not incredibly so. We have an extra two inches of movement, and one more point of BS. Both have some form of evacuation device. Both have a DTW, the HMG and Spitfire are fairly similar, and the Anaconda picks up a Panzerfaust. The Operator has 2 more points of Armor, but is also vulnerable to hacking.

All told, they really are fairly linearly matched to their increasing price. If you personally don't like the Anaconda, that's fine, but it is definitely not a bad TAG.

 

As easy as picking one of the multiple secondary hacker objectives, or just playing highly classified. Tagline missions are even more unfair without a tag.

 

I disagree. the gecko is cheaper not only in points but in cap (with more or less worse weapons but 0,5 to 2 is huge), being far more durable with 3 wounds and the extra wound of the specialist pilot with double assault pistols, he loses 1 armour and also silhouette. Additionally he can be repaired without the fear of destroying your tag.

the iguana for 9 points has the hmg, just for the range and the damage 15 is already worth it, but he also gains heavy flame thrower, 6-4mov, repeater, +1bs and one extra wound for the pilot, a pilot with the hmg and arm 3 by the way. for 9 points, 9 points!!

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logo_502.png Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png3  
logo_5.pngANACONDA Spitfire + Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / CCW. (2 | 62)
 sep.giflogo_5.pngOPERATOR Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (- | 0)
logo_8.pngGECKO 2 Combi Rifles, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / . (0 | 53)
 sep.giflogo_8.pngGECKO PILOT 2 Assault Pistols, Knife. ()
logo_7.pngIGUANA HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 71)
 sep.giflogo_7.pngIGUANA OPERATOR HMG / Pistol, Knife. ()

4 SWC | 186 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

the Anaconda is (subjectively) better than the Gecko's as it has either a range/damage advantage or a burst advantage over either of their weapons, it has +1 ARM and PH over the Gecko and it has the ED system which means the operator is useful (probably) after the destruction of her TAG as opposed to the Gecko's who're just kinda stuck there once their little bucket o'bolts finally kicks it. the operator is a better offensive piece over those pilots as she retains her Spitfire whilst they have a pair of fancy pistols. The Iguana seems justifiably better for nine points but not phenomenally so.

 

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I would rather Ariadna just get an actual TAG of their own. Something low tech but still powerful.

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Screw the old TAGS, give us a Hellhound.  A massive, armored antipode with 2 heavy flamers, light smoke grenade launcher, and 2 light rocket launchers; Irregular/impetuous, courage, total immunity, super jump, heavyweight.

Move 6-4, CC22, BS12, PH 17, WIP12, ARM6, BTS0, W3, S7,  AVA1    ~70 points, 1.5 SWC

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On 5/6/2017 at 0:07 AM, Saint said:

logo_502.png Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png3  
logo_5.pngANACONDA Spitfire + Light Flamethrower, Panzerfaust / CCW. (2 | 62)
 sep.giflogo_5.pngOPERATOR Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (- | 0)
logo_8.pngGECKO 2 Combi Rifles, Chain-colt, Panzerfaust / . (0 | 53)
 sep.giflogo_8.pngGECKO PILOT 2 Assault Pistols, Knife. ()
logo_7.pngIGUANA HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / . (2 | 71)
 sep.giflogo_7.pngIGUANA OPERATOR HMG / Pistol, Knife. ()

4 SWC | 186 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

the Anaconda is (subjectively) better than the Gecko's as it has either a range/damage advantage or a burst advantage over either of their weapons, it has +1 ARM and PH over the Gecko and it has the ED system which means the operator is useful (probably) after the destruction of her TAG as opposed to the Gecko's who're just kinda stuck there once their little bucket o'bolts finally kicks it. the operator is a better offensive piece over those pilots as she retains her Spitfire whilst they have a pair of fancy pistols. The Iguana seems justifiably better for nine points but not phenomenally so.

 

Sorry, but I can't buy that. Anaconda has 2 wounds, meanwile geko has 3. Sure that the "3rd" wound is the pilot, but with every stat extremly downgraded.

Don't misunderstand me. I loove the Anaconda and I use it quite often in MRRF. But is by far the WORST TAG in game, which doesn't mean that is bad, just worst than others.

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1 hour ago, Momo234 said:

Screw the old TAGS, give us a Hellhound.  A massive, armored antipode with 2 heavy flamers, light smoke grenade launcher, and 2 light rocket launchers; Irregular/impetuous, courage, total immunity, super jump, heavyweight.

Move 6-4, CC22, BS12, PH 17, WIP12, ARM6, BTS0, W3, S7,  AVA1    ~70 points, 1.5 SWC

I was thinking Devil Dogs that have wrecked TAGs and scavenged their armor for their own use. Potentially slower, maybe 4-4, but with ARM 6-7, total immunity, and 3 wounds. 

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AM_General_BRV-O.jpg

 

I'll take two. We could even just write "TAG" on them.

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Can we just label the blackjack as a TAG for scenario purposes similar to the specialist operative rule?

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Don't see why Ariadna has to be stuck in the past forever.

With outside help, stolen, bought or traded technology they should actively be working on modernising their military force constantly. One of these advances could be a no bullshit, sturdy AP something, baseline TAG with any sort of unique quirk. Doesn't have to be a Cutter but something along the lines of BS13, ARM8, STR3 S8 should be within their "low tech" capabilities by now.

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4 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

Don't see why Ariadna has to be stuck in the past forever.

With outside help, stolen, bought or traded technology they should actively be working on modernising their military force constantly. One of these advances could be a no bullshit, sturdy AP something, baseline TAG with any sort of unique quirk. Doesn't have to be a Cutter but something along the lines of BS13, ARM8, STR3 S8 should be within their "low tech" capabilities by now.

A Morat Raicho is a pretty cut and dried no frills TAG. A "lo-tech" version I would think probably scaled back just a tad. Alternatively, perhaps a similar TAG but costed higher due to Ariadna's "lesser access" to high tech manufacturing.

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A Morat Raicho is a pretty cut and dried no frills TAG. A "lo-tech" version I would think probably scaled back just a tad. Alternatively, perhaps a similar TAG but costed higher due to Ariadna's "lesser access" to high tech manufacturing.

Higher cost is always tied to inflating stats and gear that bloats the profile. I'd say a Raicho/Maggie with BS13 and AP HMG (+something to make it stand out) is a good fit.

But it really needs somethign to give it some flavour. Maggie has her Pilot, the 360 Visor Option and Dual Heavy Pistols. The Raicho is a Morat (which is pretty dank for a TAG). Ariadna needs something along those lines (maybe give it dual Molotoks for B5 instead of a AP HMG?) without falling prey to powercreep that doesn't feel right (e.g. no MSV1 or Mimetism, that is quite advanced tech for a TAG sized troop).

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