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AngryGorilla

Help me settle a question about impact templates.

Question

Thank you all in advance.  This came up in a game tonight, and while I think I know the answer to this one, some of the folks at the FLGS are trying to convince me otherwise.

Model 'A' has a heavy rocket launcher and fires it at model 'B', a member of a fire-team composed of models 'B', 'C', and 'D' .  Model 'B' declares the ARO BS shoot, and fires his heavy rocket launcher back at model 'A'.  Model 'C' is just outside of base-to-base contact with model 'B', and doesn't have LoF to model 'A'.

My understanding of the rules is that we go through the following sequence of events:

  1. Model 'A's player spends an order and activates Model 'A'.
  2. Model 'A's player declares BS attack as the first portion of his order, and since this is an impact template, places the template over model 'B' and finds that model 'C' is also under the template.
  3. Model 'B's player declares an ARO of BS attack with Model 'B', no ARO with model 'C', and no ARO with model 'D'.  Model 'B's player places the template over model 'A' and finds no other models will be affected.
  4. Model 'A's player declares Idle, as the second portion of his order.  This generates no further AROs.
  5. Distances are measured, modifiers tallied, and dice rolled.
  6. Model 'A's player needs a 9 or less and rolls a 2 and a 5.
  7. Model 'B's player needs a 9 or less and rolls a 7 and a 5.

My understanding of the rules is that the 5's are a wash, and the 7 rolled by model 'B's player cancels the successes of model 'A's player.  Model 'A's player needs to roll an armor save, and since he has not made a successful BS attack, model 'C' is completely unaffected by model 'A's attack.  Furthermore, since Model 'B' was the only member of the fire-team to declare an ARO, the fire-team remains intact.

Right or wrong?  If I'm wrong here, please explain how, citing the rules, so I can learn.

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Model C does get an ARO because he is under the template. It will be FtF vs the roll model A makes with the attack.

 

So say we have model A shooting his HRL.

He shoots his HRL against Model 1, and also catches models 2 and 3 under a template(they do not have LoF).

Model 1 has Shoot and Dodge as his ARO options. Models 2 and 3 have dodge at -3 as an ARO option. If they're all in a link team, they will have to all declare the same ARO if they don't want to break it(IE: they'll need to dodge)

Lets say models 2 and 4 dodge and model 1 shoots.

Model A rolls a 2 and a 8(needing 9s).

Model 1 rolls a 6(needing a 10).

Model 2 rolls a 4, model 3 rolls a 19(failing).

Model 1 will be hit once with the HRL(6 cancels the 2). Model 2 will be hit once(4 cancels the 2). Model 3 will be hit twice as he failed.

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Incorrect. Each model has to oppose the attack with its own roll; in the example above, as the fireteam was fired upon they would have to dodge (or shoot back, if they had LoF) to protect themselves from the blast. For the purposes of Model A and B's FtF roll, they compare their dice, and model B's 7 does indeed negate all of A's successes and score a hit. However, Model A's dice are still compared to model C, and since model C did not declare an ARO, they are just normal rolls, and with the above die rolls model C would take 2 hits. 

This *isn't* how it worked in N2, so there may be some confusion. Here's the relevant bit, under Impact Templates in the wiki: 

 

  • The trooper who declared the Attack compares this Roll against each enemy trooper affected by the Template individually. Each enemy trooper affected by the template resolves his Face to Face Roll with the Template user independent of each other; the Face to Face Roll of one affected enemy trooper does not affect the Face to Face Rolls of the others.
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In Grey Templar's example, I agree with those outcomes, but in my example, the original FtF was lost by model 'A' which should cancel the effects of the attack completely.

The first bullet point on page 38 of the rulebook, under effects: The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful. 

The attack isn't successful if the FtF roll cancels out the opponent's successes.  With only canceled sucesses, how can the opponent be considered to have made a successful attack roll, which is required to apply the effects of the template weapon.

I agree with both of you that this is how it is played with direct templates, just not with impact templates due to the roll being needed.

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Teardrop Impact Template example. Main target reacts by shooting.

In his Active Turn, a Hellcat wielding a Boarding Shotgun, a weapon capable of using the Small Teardrop Impact Template, declares a BS Attack against three Fusiliers in a straight line before him. Since the Boarding Shotgun has B2, the Hellcat can make two BS Attacks, each of which, if the BS Roll is successful, places a Small Teardrop Template.

The players check the Area of Effect of the Boarding Shotgun by placing the narrow end of the Template (Blast Focus) on the first Fusilier, and confirm that the Teardrop Template covers the other two Fusiliers as well.

The first Fusilier, the only one with LoF to the Hellcat, declares a BS Attack as his ARO. It will be a Face to Face Roll with his BS against the Hellcat's two BS Rolls—for the Boarding Shotgun's B2.

The other two Fusiliers do not have LoF to the Hellcat because the first Fusilier is blocking him. But, since they are affected by an Attack with a Template Weapon, they have the option declare a Dodge ARO. Each Fusilier can avoid the Damage by winning a Face to Face PH-3 Roll (the MOD is for dodging an Attack coming from outside their LoF against the Hellcat's two BS Rolls[[.]]

Should the first Fusilier win his Face to Face Roll against the Hellcat, he would avoid the Damage from the Attack with the Impact Template Weapon. However, each of the other two Fusiliers would have to win his own Face to Face Roll using PH-3 against the Hellcat's Rolls to avoid the weapon's Damage

*emphasis mine*

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10 minutes ago, AngryGorilla said:

The attack isn't successful if the FtF roll cancels out the opponent's successes.  Without sucesses, how can the opponent be considered to have made a successful attack roll, which is required to apply the effects of the template weapon.

The success or failure of model A's attack is determined individually for each model under the template. The HRL attack will be unsuccessful versus model B (as it beat model A in a FtF roll), and model C will get a dodge at -3 for dodging a template weapon out of LOS of the attacker (potentially dropping him out of the link due to declaring a different ARO from another member of the link). The result of that dodge will determine whether the attack is successful against model C.

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19 minutes ago, AngryGorilla said:

In Grey Templar's example, I agree with those outcomes, but in my example, the original FtF was lost by model 'A' which should cancel the effects of the attack completely.

The first bullet point on page 38 of the rulebook, under effects: The Template only applies its effect on each affected trooper if the Attack Roll is successful. 

The attack isn't successful if the FtF roll cancels out the opponent's successes.  With only canceled sucesses, how can the opponent be considered to have made a successful attack roll, which is required to apply the effects of the template weapon.

I agree with both of you that this is how it is played with direct templates, just not with impact templates due to the roll being needed.

In 3rd edition the template rules were changed so that each model under the template makes an independent face to face roll against the single roll by the attacker.  None of the models are treated specially (special exception for critical hits), and none of their rolls affect each other.  So even if the primary target wins their own FtF roll, each other affected model must win their own roll in order to avoid being hit.

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32 minutes ago, ToadChild said:

In 3rd edition the template rules were changed so that each model under the template makes an independent face to face roll against the single roll by the attacker.  None of the models are treated specially (special exception for critical hits), and none of their rolls affect each other.  So even if the primary target wins their own FtF roll, each other affected model must win their own roll in order to avoid being hit.

You're making me miss 2nd edition.

 

4th edition now?

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16 minutes ago, FatherKnowsBest said:

You're making me miss 2nd edition.

 

4th edition now?

I dunno man, -6 to dodge direct template weapons, no reaction when being shot through smoke... there are reasons I think the game has progressed. 

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3 hours ago, FatherKnowsBest said:

You're making me miss 2nd edition.

 

4th edition now?

It's a bit more explicitly "gamey" (how does shooting your pistol protect you from the blast?), but mechanically it is much more consistent and sound.

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I've read the original example and the answer following, but from what I understand "C" can't dodge.

B, C and D are part of the same fireteam so they must do the same ARO

B ARO is "shoot"

C is allowed to ARO, even without line of sight because he is under A templates. The only ARO avaible to him is shoot (same as B). He can't perform it so he can't ARO and must perform 2 armour rolls (A's two rolls were a success)

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20 minutes ago, arkhos94 said:

I've read the original example and the answer following, but from what I understand "C" can't dodge.

B, C and D are part of the same fireteam so they must do the same ARO

B ARO is "shoot"

C is allowed to ARO, even without line of sight because he is under A templates. The only ARO avaible to him is shoot (same as B). He can't perform it so he can't ARO and must perform 2 armour rolls (A's two rolls were a success)

He CAN declare a different ARO... it will just drop him from the link team by doing so.

As to the OP, I also had this same confusion for a while, but the key is understanding the "success" as per model and not against a combination of models.  The clause is there in case you fail to roll any successes on the initial attack (say, rolling an 11 and 15 when needing 9's).  Then the template doesn't actually land (though any dodge ARO's will still dodge for a bit of extra move if they want).

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Through extension of this logic, isn't it then implied that smoke grenades always produce the smoke template on the table, assuming the attacker makes his rolls, as the FtF roll doesn't affect whether we work out the 'effect' of the template weapon?

 

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No, because Smoke Ammo explicitly says that the user has to win all FtF Rolls to leave the template in play.

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Ok, I see that I was wrong.  Thank you all for your responses, I appreciate your taking the time to help me out.

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