tyrannosaurus

Maakrep Tracker in Onyx - what am I doing wrong?

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Decided to try out my Maakrep Tracker HMG in the last couple of games I've played and he's ended up not doing very much at all. First game I went second so left him prone, and when it came to my turn I had no targets, with my opponent ducking everything back into cover. I ended up leaving him prone for the rest of the game. Today I went first but my opponent deployed everything prone so the Maakrep ended up doing nothing first turn, dropping prone at the end, and again did nothing second turn. Third turn he got a kill but by no means made his points back.

So, in my active turn he's often starved of targets, and in reactive turn he's too valuable to leave hanging with B1, which negates his ability to see through smoke and snipe out camo. His only real use has been to dissuade my opponent from attacking up his side of the board, but that seems a lot of points and SWC to pay for that. What am I doing wrong? Should I switch weapon to a sniper rifle? Should I leave the HMG standing in my reactive turn and hope for the best with B1? Should I ditch him?

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It sounds like you haven't considered putting it into Suppressive Fire. Maybe try walking it up to the midline and try to cover a nice chunk of the table with B3 fire with extra -3mods to opponents FtF in the reactive turn.

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1 hour ago, Folow said:

It sounds like you haven't considered putting it into Suppressive Fire. Maybe try walking it up to the midline and try to cover a nice chunk of the table with B3 fire with extra -3mods to opponents FtF in the reactive turn.

True, I definitely need to work on using suppression more. Thanks for replying man!

 

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It really depends on what you're coming up against.  

The last game I played my Maakrep stayed prone before popping up on turn 3 to off a Zero and deny my opponent a console (which Dr. Worm then grabbed).  So, you know, she had an impact.  A couple weeks before that, she was instrumental in keeping a Marut at bay in Safe Area.  If you're going to let her hang back and wait for targets of opportunity though, just make sure she's got some solid cover.  

If you're looking to control ground, suppressive fire is also clearly an option.  The catch there is that she moves at 4-2, soooooo, not really optimized for getting to mid-field.  That said, she can still hold an objective at the edge of your DZ, or help lock down a sector in area control missions, that sort of thing.

The Maakrep is also OCF's sole source of MSV, so if you're playing against lists that are likely to bring camo/mimitism/ODD, she's got a clear niche to fill.  

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I say ditch her. 

One of the best uses of MSV2 is shooting or threatening to shoot through smoke in your active turn. Onyx doesn't have that so i feel the unit is largely wasted. The Maakrep is paying for toys that aren't very helpful imo. It's a fragile unit that wants to be in the action with no way to deal with all the dice coming its way.

An HMG in suppression isn't too different than other weapons filling that role. A Suryat can do that job with more MOV and staying power while costing no SWC all for a few points more. Or just spend points on a Xeodron.

As far as I'm concerned a Maakrep has no place in Onyx. It's probably the unit I have the strongest feelings about, in a negative way.

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2 minutes ago, Jujoji said:

I say ditch her. 

One of the best uses of MSV2 is shooting or threatening to shoot through smoke in your active turn. Onyx doesn't have that so i feel the unit is largely wasted. The Maakrep is paying for toys that aren't very helpful imo. It's a fragile unit that wants to be in the action with no way to deal with all the dice coming its way.

An HMG in suppression isn't too different than other weapons filling that role. A Suryat can do that job with more MOV and staying power while costing no SWC all for a few points more. Or just spend points on a Xeodron.

As far as I'm concerned a Maakrep has no place in Onyx. It's probably the unit I have the strongest feelings about, in a negative way.

Yeah this is where my thinking is at the moment. 11 points more for a Suryat with double the armour, double the wounds, and double the second movement value. MSV2 is useful but, as you say, becomes very limited without smoke. Gonna try out the Suryat and see how I get on. 0.5 SWC is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow but I can probably make it work. Thanks all for your replies, much appreciated.

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I wouldn't recommend the Suryat HMG. I prefer my gunfighters to have modifiers behind them in the FTF. The units i like in suppression fire tend to have more ARM and wounds. I only mentioned the Suryat if you wanted a unit to take up a suppression fire role. In those cases I'd probably go with the combi profile for 37pts or perhaps multi instead. 

For offensive HMGs I prefer the Rodok in full fireteam. BS15, -3 from mimetism, and Super jump if you're really aggressive.

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6 minutes ago, tyrannosaurus said:

becomes very limited without smoke

Not really.  Start adding terrain that use rules from Terrain part of the rulebook, that use low/poor/zero visibility zones (like a Jungle and so) and you will see how the value of the MSV L2 will rise in your list.Terrain rules are reason why are MSV L2 so expensive and many things are balanced around their usage in the games.  Also your own MSV L2 is good defense against opponents warbands.

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1 hour ago, Melkhior said:

 Also your own MSV L2 is good defense against opponents warbands.

Terrain and Low viz seem situational. However I can't comment much on that as it's not used often in my games.

I don't think the Maakrep is tough enough to stay out and ARO using an HMG. You'd want the multi sniper and its range to give you an edge. Deployment and table layout become factors. I'd also expect a player to have a way to deal with that ARO. Warbands get to rely on their dodge as well. I don't see those ARO's being effective.

MSV2 has always felt much more active than reactive to me. If I leave it on ARO duty I can face better snipers, white noise, or LoF issues. The Maakrep simply isn't good enough imo.

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She's paying for msv which is situational in Onyx, however she can hard counter nomad smoke+Intruder type combos or steel phalanx/Moira ODD. 

Going on suppressive isn't a bad thing, it's a deterrent.

I would avoid the 40k-minded fallacy of 'no kills = no value' - eg; my doctor doesn't kill much (well sometimes my own troops!) but his value as a specialist and healer are what I pay for not his ability to shoot things!

Similarly the Makreep can threaten fire lanes and force enemies to take a more convoluted route to objectives- forcing your opponent to waste valuable orders to do so.

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I flatly disagree that its value lies principally in active turn shenanigans. Its value for factions that can pull that off certainly does in part, but for the rest of us (I'm a PanO player first) the value is as a counter and deterrent.

Myrmidons may ordinarily smoke dodge at +3 and impose a -6 ODD mod on their opponent, but they regular dodge at -3 when facing a Maakrep HMG  in suppressive fire. And the Maakrep gives not a damn about their ODD.  That's hardly useless. 

Will you get a lot of mileage out of her every single game? Maybe not. But in an environment such as a tournament or league where you're forced to use the same list against varied opponents, MSV2 on a platform capable of dealing out some pain is a must have if it's available, at least in my book. 

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In Infinity, I often find that anything that is on the table can reliably be brought down in any given turn. The question is really what you are making it cost for your opponent.

 

In 40K terms, my Samaritans rarely make their points back if I go second, but my opponents tend to burn up towards seven to eight orders just to neutralize that one figure, and will often leave the assassin piece they used exposed  at the end of the turn. Maybe it is just because the model looks scary, but it tends to draw attention.

If an MSV2 HMG can add even more to that cost, by denying the most direct path, then it certainly has a place in the list.

 

Ooooh! Didn't think about that before. Back to the drawing board!

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19 hours ago, YoJamesBo said:

I flatly disagree that its value lies principally in active turn shenanigans. Its value for factions that can pull that off certainly does in part, but for the rest of us (I'm a PanO player first) the value is as a counter and deterrent.

What's stopping the opponent removing that roadblock with ease? A simple 22pt ,12BS, HMG just killed that Maakrep in suppression and cover. Myrmidons can continue as normal. I really don't see the HMGs value in reactive turn.

If the Maakrep HMG is going to fulfill it's role and kill those Myrmidons, it's going to do so in the active turn. Leaving it out to ARO, even in suppression plus cover, allows the opponent to remove it on their terms. Sure the Maakrep can ignore ODD etc but it doesn't even bring it's own mods to a FTF like a Nisses.

Thorakitai - HMG vs. Maakrep Trackers Unit - HMG

Active Player

50.10% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Unconscious)
16.08% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Dead)

Failures

32.97% Neither player succeeds

Reactive Player

16.93% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
1.67% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

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On 6/14/2017 at 8:24 AM, Jujoji said:

Terrain and Low viz seem situational.

It might be situational, but you generally know that situation before building your list.  You might want to also bring one pre-emtively when you are expecting a large number of camo troops.  She's not great, but to suggest that MVS2 + Smoke is the only viable reason to bring MSV2 is a bit disingenuous.

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It's about getting the most for your points. Bringing a glass with a smaller than average cannon to fulfill a role is fine. But when i have to choose between that or bringing a glass cannon to fill another role, I'll take the one that gives me a better chance of success. Assuming I encounter both threats equally. That might be a little simplistic but it's the general idea.

 

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I've got to admit, playing with Onyx almost exclusively this season with great success I have not ever given space in my lists to the Maakrep.

For those points I can have redundancy for my link teams, Rodok or Unidron, or a Notctifer Spitfire or ML. I just view it as too weak compared to the alternatives.

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17 hours ago, Jujoji said:

What's stopping the opponent removing that roadblock with ease? A simple 22pt ,12BS, HMG just killed that Maakrep in suppression and cover. Myrmidons can continue as normal. I really don't see the HMGs value in reactive turn.

Your numbers assume the Thor would have the opportunity to out-range the Maakrep, but that's why you don't set up suppression on long fire lanes, isn't it?  I'd never give you that chance unless I were totally desperate and out of other good options.  Suppressive fire is most effective in confined areas, that's where it should be used.  If you're trying to lock down 32 inch swathes of territory with suppression, you're doing it wrong and you will die.

In any case, the Maakrep in suppression beats the Thor at 8-16 inches, including cover on both sides (the Thor's odds crater if it gets within 8 for obvious reasons).  Data follows:

 

Face to Face Roll

Thorakitai - HMG vs. Maakrep Trackers Unit - HMG

Active Player

26.27% Thorakitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Unconscious)
4.60% Thorakitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Dead)

Failures

38.10% Neither player succeeds

Reactive Player

35.63% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Unconscious)
7.03% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Thorakitai (Dead)

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3 hours ago, YoJamesBo said:

I'd never give you that chance unless I were totally desperate and out of other good options.  Suppressive fire is most effective in confined areas, that's where it should be used. 

In any case, the Maakrep in suppression beats the Thor at 8-16 inches, including cover on both sides (the Thor's odds crater if it gets within 8 for obvious reasons).  Data follows:

The more confined you make the area the less influence that Maakrep has. Giving more ways to avoid the Maakrep. In your scenario the active player still gets to decide how to deal with it. If I can't avoid her, I'll pick the right weapon for the range, A Myrmidon in a 3 man fireteam with either a boarding shotgun or spitfire can deal with that Maakrep even easier.

I don't deny in the right situation the Maakrep can accomplish things. But do those situations really appear enough to make it worthwhile? IMO they do not. 

Myrmidons - Boarding Shotgun vs. Maakrep Trackers Unit - HMG

Active Player

58.39% Myrmidons inflicts 1 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Unconscious)
21.22% Myrmidons inflicts 2 or more wounds on Maakrep Trackers Unit (Dead)

Failures

25.33% Neither player succeeds

Reactive Player

16.27% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Myrmidons (Unconscious)
1.49% Maakrep Trackers Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Myrmidons (Dead)

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45 minutes ago, Jujoji said:

The more confined you make the area the less influence that Maakrep has. Giving more ways to avoid the Maakrep. In your scenario the active player still gets to decide how to deal with it. If I can't avoid her, I'll pick the right weapon for the range, A Myrmidon in a 3 man fireteam with either a boarding shotgun or spitfire can deal with that Maakrep even easier.

I don't deny in the right situation the Maakrep can accomplish things. But do those situations really appear enough to make it worthwhile? IMO they do not. 

Every time you cite stats you assume you'll outplay your opponent which is charming, but it hardly establishes anything.  Sometimes you will get the upper hand, no doubt, and sometimes your opponent's going to play smart and you'll be stuck with nothing but bad options.  Yes, a Myrmidon up close with a BSG is nasty, but if it can't get within 8 inches of that suppressing Maakrep HMG in a single short order to get the mods in its favor then . . . what?  Oh, then it's standing in the open and odds are it dies.  Even if it has cover, odds are it dies.  

My point was and remains that the Maakrep is useful in the reactive turn if you're smart in your use of suppressive fire and you watch your range bands.  Your counter-arguments and accompanying examples amount to "but what if you don't?"  Well gee, in that case she'll suck an egg and die, just like any other unit you when you screw up and put them at a disadvantage.  Moreover, the Maakrep is the only unit Onyx has that can ignore ODD, TO/Camo, etc., and thus keep those suppressive odds stacked in her favor.  

That's not enough for you?  Cool.  It's enough for me.

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2 minutes ago, YoJamesBo said:

My point was and remains that the Maakrep is useful in the reactive turn if you're smart in your use of suppressive fire and you watch your range bands.   

The difference is your argument is based on the Maakrep playing smart while not allowing the opponent to do the same. If that's your argument yes, the smart player will beat the bad player. In my argument both players are equal. I didn't alter how you setup the Maakrep for ARO. I gave an example of how easy it was to beat from 16-32. You countered with better positioning for the Maakrep. I proceeded to give examples of how easy it was to beat at any range. 

I have established how easy it is to deal with. A 12BS trooper with a gun can kill it easily. I even used a Myrmidon which loses ODD but I gave it +1B. I think many will agree there are far more potent options to deal with that Maakrep as well.

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I've had a fair bit of success with the sniper version of this model in Onyx but honestly it's a victim of competition. Points are razor tight in Onyx and I'm more likely to reach for an M-Drone and R-Drone over the Maakrep. My SWC just goes elsewhere. 

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I tend to use mine as a dedicated ODD and TO hunter with a sniper rifle, the HMG can work but i use mine as a generally purely active piece, and due to automed an 6thS it's a bunker I can leave on its own, anything auto med can't fix isn't going to be helped by a doctor.

 More often however I take the hacker with grenades and B:Sg (I use a converted Iago), does wonders for me, offering a decent hacker who can sweep for enemies and wants to be close anyway, and can use support ware on the bots or fairy dust your suryat duo while the Nexus does the former.

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I don't think it would have broken things to give the makreep a Harris option.   Would have made them a lot more desirable 

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Survival form like Fraacta woulda been nice.

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