Jorulfr

Am i crazy, or is Pano troops better and cheaper?

36 posts in this topic

Hey everyone, i am a newbie at this game still, got 5 games under my belt, and the icestorm campaign. I have lost them all, and yes some is due to bad rolls.

But it seemd to me that the Pano troops are simply superior and for a better price, than our nomads.

The Nisse vs Intruder for example, basically the same, yet the nisse i 9 pts cheaper.

Or the father knight vs mobile brigada. The knight is vastly superior, yet only 5 pts more.

Am i missing something, or am i just bad? because i am really considering starting another faction, due to sucking with nomads.  

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Exactly what @Loricus said. 

Regarding the nisse, he might be cheaper buy he has lower wip (useful to discover pesky camps) and having mimetism in place of camp is very different, you can try to brain your opponent with camo, not with mimetism, and camo grants surprise shot.... So yeah 9 pts.... But those are well spent point.

 

Regarding the father knight, yes one to one the father is fairly superior in all aspects, but they're not linkable.... That's a real plus for the brigadas, plus they have LFT, which is always nice to have on a HI. And of course they're sexier.

The thing in my opinion, you might be lacking for now is experience, PanO troops are just real good in their roles that's for sure, but we dabble in versatility and returning the situation for us ;) don't worry you'll be a dirty trick nomad in no time ;) then you'll see, we really have little to complain (except for Tunguska's arrival of course)

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In general, Infinity is very well balanced. The Intruder is stronger enough, used properly, to be worth 9 points more than a Nisse, and a Mobile Brigada has options (particularly as part of the Corregidor sectorial) that the Father-Knight doesn't.

If you find another faction that you like the look of better-- perhaps you'd like to use your Intruder more like a Nisse, in which case the Nisse will look better, or you prefer the way the Father-Knight works, definitely give it a shot, perhaps even proxy the pieces in some test games before spending money. While the factions are generally very balanced, there's definitely playstyle that comes into consideration, and you may prefer to play in a way that doesn't mesh well with Nomad strengths.

That all having been said, here's my take on Nomads vs PanO:

PanO: Good at shooting, but very straightforward and fairly predictable. There's not a lot of trickiness or asymmetric play with PanO, they tend to just try to outshoot you in straight fights because they often lack the tools to stack odds in their favor by striking at unexpected angles. Lots of very strong high-end troops and a few very well optimized middle-end troops, but generally underwhelming cheap troops. Specialists are a notable weakness, both because PanO has fewer of them and generally low WIP across the board, so one you start playing with objectives their weaknesses show more. Lots of HI and generally poor hacking defense means strong hackers can hit them hard. Still, "shoot them better than they can shoot you" is a strong play. Most PanO units, as mentioned above, are very good at doing one thing, so if you need something done and don't have a units specifically good at it, you can struggle to fill the gap.

Nomads: Good at highly versatile units, which makes them seem trickier than most. Playing Nomads effectively requires a really broad and flexible playstyle, using all of the tools at your disposal and surprising your enemies from unexpected angles. Nomads have lots of very strong middle-end troops which taper off at both the low and high end, so a Nomad force is likely to have a lot of medium-cost units with a broad toolbox, which means power is dispersed across a lot more units than other factions, and also that Nomads rarely have a single lynchpin unit on which their tactics rely. With average shooting, good-but-not-superlative WIP, and incredibly strong hackers, they are very good at adapting to pretty much any situation. The cost is that Nomads feel each loss more keenly than other factions, because oftentimes every unit in a Nomad list is doing two or three jobs, so taking a hit or a lucky crit can often mean losing a big part of your toolbox.

 

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If we try to take PanO head on, we lose. That's where they excel. We excel at moving laterally, i.e. be water and flow around the stone.

We have tons of options to avoid combat (smoke, white noise), generate AROs out of LoF (hacking, etc), and stack mods, as described above.

 

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Epic first post BTW. It's just heart-warming to see a new Nomad trolling PanO on day one ;)

Welcome to the best faction in the Sphere where you'll rapidly find the issue isn't about being able to do a particular job but selecting from a daunting array of really cool options

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Thank you all for the answers, it does put it all in perspective :)

 

And thank you @inane.imp for the warm welcome.

I guess my biggest problem has been dealing with all the HI my opponent has been throwing down on the table, and that damn sierra dronbot :streaming-mad:

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I will say, Intruders are a great tool for taking down TR bots.

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In general, PanO are better at doing (especially shooting) things directly. Nomads are better at combining things for situational, strong effects. This might be why you had trouble with PanO in simple, direct starter type games. Get a Jaguar to throw some smoke down for your Intruder to shoot through, or upgrade your Spektr from Icestorm to a hacker to immobilize his Father Knight before shooting it and you will start to understand the strength of Nomads. The game is very balanced, so what faction you should end up with should be more dependent on what playstyle and / or models you like.

Welcome and have fun with it! There's a lot of depth to Infinity, so you will probably be discovering the reasons behind things that don't make sense at first for some time. It's a fun ride.

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1 hour ago, Jorulfr said:

I guess my biggest problem has been dealing with all the HI my opponent has been throwing down on the table, and that damn sierra dronbot :streaming-mad:

 

1 hour ago, ToadChild said:

I will say, Intruders are a great tool for taking down TR bots.

A major reason I take the MSR. Drops them to 0 BS without wasting an order on smoke.

 

For HI you can go the hacking route. Personally I go either the "many wounds" route or lock them down with special weapons like E/M or Adhesive.

I know it's my solution to everything, but Hellcat HMG is good for putting lots of wounds. If you can drop in and get them out of cover. If you can get them out of cover and facing the wrong way you can drop them in an order.

Anyways there are tons of solutions, you'll find your own.

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TR bots and HI can seem like insurmountable obstacles when you first face them. It's a psychological thing, much like staring down the barrels of two linked missile launchers.

New players can often feel like they're being led around by the nose. You lose to a TR bot, you buy a TR bot. A TO troop murders your TR bot, you buy a TO troop. An AD troop murders your TO thing, you buy an AD troop.

I guess my point is that it's not the HI or the TR bot that is giving you trouble, but rather the weakness that they're exploiting. Deny them the opportunity, and seek out and exploit their weakness.

For example, if that TR bot can see the whole table, the whole table can see him. Your weakness is that the TR bot can see all your dudes, so if you activate them one by one, you're just suiciding them one by one. But.....

Since a ton of your guys can see the bot, have them all shoot it at the same time.  It can't split burst in ARO, so a coordinated order with MULTI sniper rifles using DA ammo, missile launchers, panzerfausts, etc. is deadly. Sure, one of your models will have to FtF against 4 dice, but all your other guys will get free normal rolls. If a single Panzerfaust gets through, that TR bot is likely toast.

Nomads are all about forcing bad decisions on your opponent. In the above example, say you're using the Intruder MSR, a Jaguar panzerfaust, and Lupe to shoot the TR bot with DA MSR ammo and panzerfausts. Let's assume everyone has good range and cover. Here are the options:

  1. Dodge
  2. Shoot the Intruder at -6. ARM 6
  3. Shoot Lupe at -3. ARM 5
  4. Shoot the Jaguar at flat BS. ARM 4

Highest chance of success is going for the Jaguar... but he's dogged and so is Lupe... but do you want to try taking out an Intruder? We're very good at forcing these kinds of decisions.

Anyway, just don't fall into the trap of focusing on a particular model and it's "overpowered-ness." Find the right weakness to exploit!

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Worth pointing out the fatherknight is closer to 9-10 points more than the Mobile Brigada. 

The default Brigada comes with a multirifle and light flamethrower while the FK gets a combi. That's a significant difference in stopping power and utility, but it does drive up cost. For reference, the combi Brigada clocks in at 34 points compared to the 44 of the combi of the FK.

That said, Nomads really live and breath in the 30s and under territory. They have power pieces that cost more, but that 30 and under is where you get work done. Zeroes, Moran, Tomcats, Bandits, Interventors, Lupe and even Riot GRRLS bring versatile specialists for cheap. Nomad have a well developed warband contingent with the cheap but surprising Morlocks, regular reliable Jaguars, and the guided missile that are the Uberfall.

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3 hours ago, banthafodder said:

That said, Nomads really live and breath in the 30s and under territory. They have power pieces that cost more, but that 30 and under is where you get work done. Zeroes, Moran, Tomcats, Bandits, Interventors, Lupe and even Riot GRRLS bring versatile specialists for cheap.

I have to laugh a little because I'm talking about Corregidor looking a little underwhelming in another thread while here the examples that are given for good Vanilla units are mostly Corregidor.

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26 minutes ago, Loricus said:

I have to laugh a little because I'm talking about Corregidor looking a little underwhelming in another thread while here the examples that are given for good Vanilla units are mostly Corregidor.

well, Vanilla behaves very different from Sectorial.

A piece may be "very good" for vanilla and "meh" for Sectorial use.

for example, the Anaconda is significantly stronger in vanilla than in CJC, since in vanilla you have plenty of access to Interventor and other support pieces (morlocks etc)

same may be said for Moran, they surely shine more in a Vanilla list, than on Corregidor. (not saying that they are bad, but they are better in vanilla)

Regarding that topic, i think that the main problem of corregidor is that, apart from Linked team, vanilla can make the exact same list and it will perform at least in the same way.

 

Regarding this topic:

Welcome to infinity learning curve!

Using nomads, you'll generally lose all your first matches, until you learn many rules.

Then, things will change a lot, and the enemy will usually cry inside when they see you are playing this faction.

Why? let me explain

Pano is very straightforward faction. They shoot well, and have very good fighters. Their HI is to be feared of, as you saw (Father Knight are as good as our tags, and they are HI)

Nomad is a very "weird" faction. Nomads typically fight using tricks to exploit the weaknesses of their opponent. Usually Nomad pieces are very "specialized" to do some tasks.

 

example:

take pano Bulleteer rem, it's a Spitfire armed BS 12 rem with ODD! for 23points-1swc

it's a solid piece! totally worth every point! (in fact even Pano player say that's too good to pass upon!)

our direct "comparison" is the Tsiklon sputnik with a Spitfire armed BS 12 that costs 31 points-1 SWC!

at first sight, the Tsiklon seems to be an overcosted solution against the Bulleteer, but they solve very different roles!

Tsiklon have X-visor and 360° Visor.

that means that the tsiklon may go into "suppressive fire" and be very effective (shoot 360° around, without penality for range)

More so if you think that Tsiklon have "climbing Plus", meaning that he can go wherever you want, avoiding bad places.

 

 

Generally speaking, infinity profiles are very much balanced, you may find maybe a couple point "undercost/overcost" on a couple of profiles, but mostly you're paying for what you bring on the field.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, banthafodder said: That said, Nomads really live and breath in the 30s and under territory. They have power pieces that cost more, but that 30 and under is where you get work done. Zeroes, Moran, Tomcats, Bandits, Interventors, Lupe and even Riot GRRLS bring versatile specialists for cheap.

I have to laugh a little because I'm talking about Corregidor looking a little underwhelming in another thread while here the examples that are given for good Vanilla units are mostly Corregidor.

Between you, me, Hach and WiseKensai it does occasionally get a touch difficult remember which thread we're saying what in. It kinda all blurs into one ongoing conversation.

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12 hours ago, Darkvortex87 said:

Regarding that topic, i think that the main problem of corregidor is that, apart from Linked team, vanilla can make the exact same list and it will perform at least in the same way.

Being able to make nearly the same list as Vanilla but with a link sounds pretty good. In fact I've had that thrown at me as why Corregidor is overpowered.

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7 hours ago, Loricus said:

Being able to make nearly the same list as Vanilla but with a link sounds pretty good. In fact I've had that thrown at me as why Corregidor is overpowered.

logo_502.png Jurisdictional Command of Corregidor
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  orden_irregular.png1  
logo_5.pngINTRUDER (X-Visor) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 43)
logo_9.pngBANDIT (Forward Observer) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
logo_10.pngMORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
logo_10.pngMORAN Boarding Shotgun, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
logo_11.pngJAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
logo_11.pngJAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
logo_11.pngJAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
logo_11.pngJAGUAR Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 10)
logo_13.pngDAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_21.pngSALYUT Hacker (EVO Hacking Device) Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 25)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  
logo_1.pngALGUACIL Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 10)
logo_1.pngALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_1.pngALGUACIL Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_1.pngALGUACIL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 15)
logo_1.pngALGUACIL (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_4.pngHELLCAT Combi Rifle, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 23)
logo_14.pngSTEMPLER ZOND Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 17)
logo_17.pngTRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
logo_17.pngTRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

logo_501.png Nomads
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png5  orden_irregular.png5  orden_impetuosa.png4
logo_4.pngINTRUDER (X-Visor) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, CCW. (1.5 | 43)
logo_9.pngBANDIT (Forward Observer) Light Shotgun, Adhesive Launcher / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 23)
logo_30.pngMORAN (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22)
logo_10.pngZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
logo_10.pngZERO (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
logo_12.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)
logo_12.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
logo_12.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Assault Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
logo_12.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW. (0 | 6)
logo_16.pngINTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png8  
logo_22.pngZOE & PI-WELL . (0 | 47)
 sep.giflogo_22.pngZOE (Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Stop!) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
 sep.giflogo_22_2.pngPI-WELL Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 19)
logo_3.pngHELLCAT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 28)
logo_23.pngMODERATOR Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0.5 | 15)
logo_35.pngSALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
logo_35.pngSALYUT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
logo_21.pngTRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
logo_21.pngTRANSDUCTOR ZOND Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

5.5 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

they are pretty similar, but imho, the second list is much more performing than the first, even if both have the same "reasoning" behind.

Substituting pieces with lower cost, better performances pieces (Jaguard vs morlock, Pwell vs stempler, ...) makes vanilla a better player all around.

Corregidor is far from the weakest sectorial in the game, but most of the top players on tournaments play vanilla, not sectorial, because they offer a lot of more flexibility during listbuilding (and as it is right now, a lot more mercenaries)

 

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@Darkvortex87 I think people would disagree about which one is better. Although I wouldn't take either.

 

A lot of top players play Vanilla Nomads because they are old farts from pre-sectorial that never stopped loving it. Popularity does not necessarily suggest a strength difference.

Otherwise Morats and PanO would be way OP and Tohaa would be weak. None of those are the case.

One of my most specific points is that Corregidor is uninteresting.

 

I think that Corregidor could go a long way to pull people in, but not in a buff way.

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TBH I think CJC should benefit from James SA Corey fanbois: they're Belters.

But they do suffer from being 'stolid and reliable'. They have no Brans, no Zoes, no Morgannas.

Carlotta is boring despite being a 0 SWC BS13 AD Specialist with an ADHL (actually... When I say it like that...).

I think Deadpool link and Bandits were a good change in the 'interesting' department: they don't add much relative power to the faction (due overall power creep with HSN3) but they do add a lot of character.

What I really want is a cool Wildcat character that has some fun fluff associated with them.

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10 hours ago, inane.imp said:

TBH I think CJC should benefit from James SA Corey fanbois: they're Belters.

earn your air, sa sa?

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I dunno I think of Corregidor as the sectorial of straight up badasses. There's a lot of appeal in that.

Their tricks might not be as tricksy, but they're damn effective IMHO.

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On 2017-6-25 at 10:35 PM, ToadChild said:

 

PanO does have a general BS boost in a game in which shooting is the most common form of attack.

 

Which cost much more than 1 point mimetism which swing it by -3 for opponent ^^

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Yeah, if you could keep that stuff to the PanO forum, that'd be great.

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