Lazarus0909

The problem with Mormaers

54 posts in this topic

yeah mormaers need something. not sure what and Id hesitate to just stick NWI on them as it seems like a lazy "arms race" fix.

Id like to see them get more of a defined "role" within CHA at the very least, maybe up tech them a little or something to give thema  niche

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Absolutely, I wanna put these guys in the but there's next to nothing to justify the cost.

Heck even in Vanilla I'd rather pick a minuteman for a mobile twin flamer, and they're a fairly mediocre pick outside their sectorial. Mormaers absolutely need something else over their pip of armor to see more play.

If we're spit balling, I might say make them ARM 6 to really hammer home the idea of an unmovable piece. That would fill in an untapped meta call for a quasi cheap light TAG Ariadna style.

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I'm actually in the same boat as you. At the moment I'm considering to run Ariadna as my secondary army once Wotan is over and I absolutely love the model of the Mormaer but I didn't find any reason to pick one instead of a Veteran Kazak.

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much as I love the armor 5. The slow slow speed and dogged jilust really hurt him as an offensive piece. Though I still think the haris option does help set him apart from the Kazak. But only for pure CHA. If the Kazak was only AVA 1 then he could have a bit more appeal as a second option. I really do like the MSV1 idea though.

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I know you can never take both in the same list, but the alarming thing is, unless you're facing MSV, Mimetism actually has nearly the same impact in F2F rolls than the +1 ARM and +1 B do! The numbers can vary by about a few % in either direction, with the Mormaers coming a few % ahead in some fights and the VK coming ahead in others. 

Considering how much you're actually paying for the privilege of the Haris here, it's a pretty effective illustration of just how underperforming the Mormaers are that they need a full on Haris of pseudo HI to get similar numbers to just a simple Vet Kazak in the same situation...  

 

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Mormaers are definitely victims of "design creep". They could probably do with a total redesign, ala the Azrail(maybe not that drastic).

If I were to redesign Mormaers, I would probably shave 4-5 points off every profile. In general, all Ariadnan heavy infantry could do with some points shaving. Especially since other factions get actual heavy infantry sometimes for cheaper.

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9 hours ago, grey templar said:

Mormaers are definitely victims of "design creep". They could probably do with a total redesign, ala the Azrail(maybe not that drastic).

If I were to redesign Mormaers, I would probably shave 4-5 points off every profile. In general, all Ariadnan heavy infantry could do with some points shaving. Especially since other factions get actual heavy infantry sometimes for cheaper.

not to sidetrack,

But not the grey, that thing is already stupid good and a big part of the reason mormaers are lackluster.
My preffered fix for the mormaers, I like the MSV1 idea that plays into their visor pretty well.

How about a different take though, Sensor ;) 
Gives them a role not taken up at all in CHA in camo revealing and would pair up nicely in the rest of our list.

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Completely OT and almost unrelated:

I officially hate you all now. This thread made me ponder even harder about Ariadna and I have just ordered a 300 point CHA army.

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6 hours ago, Commoner1 said:

Completely OT and almost unrelated:

I officially hate you all now. This thread made me ponder even harder about Ariadna and I have just ordered a 300 point CHA army.

your welcome, glad we could help. 😁 Hope you have fun with em.

Glory to the rise of Dawn!

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15 minutes ago, Kreslack said:

your welcome, glad we could help. 😁 Hope you have fun with em.

Glory to the rise of Dawn!

Thanks mate! :-)

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I agree with the comparisons, even in CHA they lose out against the other HI/MI/Warbands/Fireteams.

As for a solution, at the very least I'd want NWI. If you add MSV1 to all loadouts then it becomes a harder choice - especially when the X-visor on the T2 rifle is combined with suppression fire mode.

A few alternative options, (this is more a fantasy wish-list);

  • Veteran L1.
Different weapon options - expand their meagre 2 choices to include for example rocket launchers, MLs, even autocannons. If they're so rich, why wouldn't they grab the biggest guns? Up their WIP to 14 or 15 - means their Lt choices become even more interesting. Give them more sidearms and/or equipment - the Grey has more stuff in CHA, yet aren't these the rich kids? Heavy pistols, flamethrowers, (?), shotguns, mines. Make all of them Specialists.
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I doubt MSV1 + XVisor is that powerful for a HI, not when you have models with marksmanship, MSV2, higher base BS and all sorts of other nastiness in this game at that point bracket, many with defensive modifiers (Mimetism/Camo) of their own as well.

The issue with chasing after NWI, Veteran, bigger pistols/flamers etc is that really it just seems to be treading down a path of making a second Veteran Kazak, instead of trying to do something truly different.

Likewise with simply making them cheaper (basically, more like Marauders or Moblots) because it's the more elite "high end" spectrum that we're needing more options with in faction. This represents a greater untapped design space for them to flesh out and actually bring something worth having to the table, instead of just more of the same tools we already have with only a few minor distinctions.  

  

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Yeah, I'm still thinking giving them MSV1 is the best option. Probably my best idea yet! It definitely helps them fill a different niche than the Veteran without making them too unique. I mean, we used to have a Veteran Kazak loadout with MSV1 and it was pretty interesting. I took it occasionally, so having a T2 rifle with X-visor and MSV1 would be the perfect love child and would allow them to feasibly compete against the Veteran Kazak T2 version without replacing it. The AP HMG loadout would then have a completely unique loadout that fills its own niche within all of Ariadna.

Plus, putting MSV1 on a 4-2 "HI" isn't going to be the end all, be all. There are far sillier combos, like the Spetsnaz HMG, etc.

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mormaers need nwi. give them nwi and they are right. not two true wounds but can take a hit and keep going. at 42 points for the hmg thats what genuine two wound hi pay so its not broken. comparing any unit to the mormaer ends in dissapointment. the only mormaer i can stomach is the t2 rifle and its not great. its just tolerable.

as for the argument, its just a vet kazak at that point. im ok with the comparison. firstly its not as good secondly cha would have a use for it. i take mormaer currently because i like the model not the profile

id even be fine with getting nwi and losing shock immunity. it makes them vulnerable but still twoish wounds

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1 hour ago, deltakilo said:

at 42 points for the hmg thats what genuine two wound hi pay so its not broken.

The hacking immunity would be an issue, at that point they are 1 point more than an AP HMG azra'il for pretty much the same profile except hacking immune and only S2 (bigger silhouettes = discounts, see Maghariba Guard being the cheapest MULTI HMG TAG in the game)

edit: admittedly they take a hit to WIP and BTS, but when you're hacking immune it's not such a big deal.

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BS14?

That makes them what you take outside of a link, when you just need a gun boat and arent taking the Vols that run with the grey you take a mormaer

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Wow thats a tricky one.

They're so expensive because a proper HI statline with ARM5 is quite pricey for what it does on a 1W model with Dogged instead of true 2W. A Yan Huo or Azrail pays the same for his ARM5 and can take a couple hits just to be put back up by a skilled Doctor.

Giving then extra stuff on top of what they have makes them even more expensive. BS14, MSV1 or NWI would fix them in CHA but they'd still be worse than Vet Kazaks in Vanilla (which is fine because they have Haris). All of that seems a bit boring though.

BS14+ seems to be impossible to reach for a regular human and is exclusive to hackable HI/TAGs with aiming assistance devices. Why not make Moramer's Ariadna's first proper techy, HI? NWI and BS14 seems okay to me. Proper ARM5 2W HI is always S5. The exception are very high tech HI in PanO, Aleph and YJ, Haq, CA and Nomads haven't managed to fit that level of durability on a S2 chassis yet. So if Ariadna gets something close to 2W ARM5 it has to have some sort of "low tech drawback" (4-2 and NWI instead of 2W) but should probably have some proper HI traits like hackability and BTS. 4-2, NWI, hackable, BTS3 Moramers with BS14 would be a lot more expensive.

How the heck would it be possible to make them different than Vet Kazaks without making them too expensive? ARM 5 NWI to keep up with ARM4 NWI Mimetism and limit Vet Kazaks to Fireteam Duo in their Sectorial?

Power creep is always a concern, BS14 or MSV1 AP HMGs is better than what Haq gets on real HI for example. I don't think it's a good thing for the game as a whole to giveeither option to Moramers. T2 Rifles and AP HMGs for around 40 points is already quite potent. Something that hits that hard and has a combination of BS14 or Visors needs to be on a more expensive platform. Considering the potential Orders it can be fueled with 50 to 60 probably.

As much as I don't like that Ariadna is capped at Speznaz and Vet Kazak's levels for high end shooting. For all it's worth It doesn't seem to hurt them. Moramers should be better at their strong point of being Linkable ARM5 dudes that can can take a hit for CHA. It's nothing fancy and I'd be happy for a better solution, but so far NWI seems the way to go for them.

As far as giving a better top end shooter to Ariadna is concerned, USA seems a bit on the weak side compared to what Vanilla, CHA and MRRF can put on the table. Maybe make the Blackjack BS14 or give him the MSV1 (even though the Profile was just released)?

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2 hours ago, Daboarder said:

BS14?

That makes them what you take outside of a link, when you just need a gun boat and arent taking the Vols that run with the grey you take a mormaer

Then we can finally scrap Orcs ?

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My favored solution would be: Add a second wound and keep dogged. Increase his price by 10-15 points and you get a unit who lives up to his name and looks.

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59 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

BS14+ seems to be impossible to reach for a regular human and is exclusive to hackable HI/TAGs

What the heck is Margot then ?

11 minutes ago, Commoner1 said:

My favored solution would be: Add a second wound and keep dogged. Increase his price by 10-15 points and you get a unit who lives up to his name and looks.

So then he will hit harded and have more wounds than almost any other standard HI (on top of being unhackable) ? 

Ariadna HI new top tech naow. 

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19 minutes ago, Eciu said:

What the heck is Margot then ?

Unhackable BS14 HI, but not a "regular" human but a special named character. Those often get to be 1 point better for a few stats than the usual "limit". I've been trying to take the formula apart for a while and wasn't even aware she is an exception (because there seem to be a lot of rules but also a lot of exceptions, which makes the entire thing a giant hazzle).

Ko Dali is another one, being a BS14 "Tiger Soldier".

Sheshkiin being a genetically engineered alien with BS15 as the other exception I can come up with.

Can't find a single non hackable troop that isn't named with higher BS than 13 otherwise. Ofc CB can always change that, but I prefer to operate within the limits I'm aware of. I'm also aware that that is a lot of conditions and makes it hard to grasp that those rules are even a thing.

As far as I am concerned "no MSV1+BS13 HMGs" is exactly the same thing as "no MSV3 HMGs" for Ariadna. Both aren't a combination within the existing balance but something new, above the top range of the current option. Every time you create something more powerful than existing options it has to be balanced somehow, so I'd prefer to leave that part to Gutier and switch things around within the limits I can see from current troops.

The Sukeul is something I wouldn't have ever dared to ask for Tohaa but they got it anyway. So you might get BS14 MSV1 NWI Mormaers if Gutier feels like the faction needs a buff. But operating under the assumption that Ariadna and CHA are fine as a whole I doubt it for now.

It's important to point out that Margot didn't get BS14 and a AP HMG or T2 Rifle, so she has her own set of limits to make it okay for her to break the BS14 rule. We can all agree that a BS14 AD troop with AP Rifle for 37 is strong but still perfectly alright next to a Tiger Soldier Spitfire with BS13 and Mimetism for 32. Sheshkin for 50 might have that BS15 but no Visor or Vis Mods beyond Cover to combo with and dies to a single Shock round. There is a whole lot of bloat on her. I completely that something as bloated as Moramers overpays for their stats and access to T2 Rifles and AP HMG isn't enough, but higher BS a MSV1 or Mimetism seems like the right answer to that problem when you consider everything around the Mormaer. 

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7 minutes ago, Eciu said:

What the heck is Margot then ?

So then he will hit harded and have more wounds than almost any other standard HI (on top of being unhackable) ? 

Ariadna HI new top tech naow. 

Sure, since we're talking about a unit with a power level comparable to the ORC or the WuMing, who are the weakest HIs PanO and YuJing as the premier HI factions have to offer. So it's absolutely not "top tech".

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9 minutes ago, Commoner1 said:

Sure, since we're talking about a unit with a power level comparable to the ORC or the WuMing, who are the weakest HIs PanO and YuJing as the premier HI factions have to offer. So it's absolutely not "top tech".

It's not. Doesn't have 2 true W, is in Ariadna instead of PanO and Orcs have problems to compete because there are better things available within their faction. The Orc HMG is still perfectly alright in PanO for example. Give that to Ariadna, Nomads or Haq and they'd happily run it as well.

For Haq trading S5, AP HMG and WIP14 for S2, 4-4, better BS and PH would be worth considering. For Nomads the Orc is just a better HMG carrier than a lone Mobile Brigada and for Ariadna it's cheaper, hackable, has two true wounds and BS14 compared to a Vet Kazak and can compete with him. And thats just the HMG - Multirifle and BSG would be very interesting to get for those factions. Not even sure if the Orc Haris would be crappy in Ariadna fueled by 6 point dudes.

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20 hours ago, Lazarus0909 said:

I doubt MSV1 + XVisor is that powerful for a HI, not when you have models with marksmanship, MSV2, higher base BS and all sorts of other nastiness in this game at that point bracket, many with defensive modifiers (Mimetism/Camo) of their own as well.

The issue with chasing after NWI, Veteran, bigger pistols/flamers etc is that really it just seems to be treading down a path of making a second Veteran Kazak, instead of trying to do something truly different.

Likewise with simply making them cheaper (basically, more like Marauders or Moblots) because it's the more elite "high end" spectrum that we're needing more options with in faction. This represents a greater untapped design space for them to flesh out and actually bring something worth having to the table, instead of just more of the same tools we already have with only a few minor distinctions.

Assuming this was in reply to me;

The Veteran Kazak has mimetism, Sixth Sense L2, 4-4 MOV, WIP14 and is better in CC - I can't see how adding NWI, Veteran L1 or better sidearms could possibly turn the Mormaer into a "2nd" Veteran.

Though I'd rather they stayed the same price as well, I just want them to justify me spending those points.

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