Lazarus0909

The problem with Mormaers

64 posts in this topic

21 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

How about full Auto L1 on them now? (Let's just assume that's the -3 to the other guy's BS Attack and not the +1B thing for the sake of this discussion, flat out +1B would be boring).

The talk is, FA1 is, in fact, +1 B.

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1 hour ago, Barrogh said:

The talk is, FA1 is, in fact, +1 B.

Yes that is what Bostria said, but as mentioned that would be awful. If you always end up slapping +1B on anything you want the new -3 MOD for, you'll not be able to put it on a lot of profiles as a competitor/replacement to Camo and MSVs. If you can hand out L1 for the -3 MOD to Raichos, Mormaers and other things that would be great as a new way to compete in the shooting game for a lot of troops.

If the interesting option stays gated behind L2 that is just a wasted opportunity. The rules for both new troops are subject to change with the new book anyway. Might as well change that to fix it. The Kriza Borac is the only affected troop for now and he has L2 either way.

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On 7/20/2017 at 5:57 AM, BLOODGOD said:

I think a T2 HMG as the only change would make them very interesting. That thing would be an active turn menace.

Would probably be OP. But its not a bad line of thought. give them something better than an AP HMG, but not quite T2.

AP+DA HMG?

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AP + DA HMG would be the most powerfull weapon in all infinity...by far. AP HMG is strong as it is, if you add DA on top of that every list would start with 2 Mormaers and go on from there :) 

 

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DA, EXP or T2 HMG seems too overpowered. Burst 4 weapon (5 with link) + multi wound amunition just is too much power

Full Auto level 1 seems interesting without making it an auto-choice when compared to other HMG platforms

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Damage 13 T2 HMG. For example. Yes its a B4 T2 weapon (B5 in a link) but not as menacing as DAM15 T2 HMG.

 

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48 minutes ago, Kwisatz Haderach said:

Damage 13 T2 HMG. For example. Yes its a B4 T2 weapon (B5 in a link) but not as menacing as DAM15 T2 HMG.

 

at that point it might as well be a T2 moloktok. Which would be outrageously good.

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How about Mechanized Deployment? This helps counter their low M and puts Mormaers up field in position to dig in and take advantage of their ARM 5. A T2 Rifle with X-Visor in suppression fire would be quite the speed bump. 

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Sic the ol Frenzy discount on them! :)

/s

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

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Boy do I hope no one listenes to ideas about T2 or DA HMGs.

Snipers have a hard time being useful as it is, do you want to make them completely obsolete? :_crying__rvmp_by_bad_blood:

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2 hours ago, Teslarod said:

Boy do I hope no one listenes to ideas about T2 or DA HMGs.

Snipers have a hard time being useful as it is, do you want to make them completely obsolete? :_crying__rvmp_by_bad_blood:

Yeah, great point.  

One of the defining concepts of weapon balance is that you trade Burst and/or range for specialty ammunition types.  When you create weapons with both high burst and high stopping power, it breaks the system.

On the broader topic, I really like the application of Full Auto on Mormaers.  I think it sets them apart from Greys as an individual higher-quality gunfighter.  I guess the main question is whether Burst 6 is something that should be allowed into the game, since Mormaers can be linked.  I'm inclined to say it shouldn't be...

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Burst 6 might be very strong, but I don't think it's game breaking. There isn't a ton of difference between Burst5 and Burst6 in terms of power.

If we just look at the chance of getting a crit.

Burst5 has a 22.6% chance of getting at least 1 crit.

Burst 6 has a 26.4% chance of getting at least 1 crit.

Just under a 4% increase in crit chances.

The main benefit is that you could split your burst to shoot 2 targets each with 3 burst. Which honestly again isn't all that much better than shooting 2 targets, one with 3 burst and one with 2. Its better, but the difference between burst 5 and 6 is far less than the difference between burst 1 and 2 or 2 and 3.

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14 hours ago, Barakiel said:

On the broader topic, I really like the application of Full Auto on Mormaers.  I think it sets them apart from Greys as an individual higher-quality gunfighter.  I guess the main question is whether Burst 6 is something that should be allowed into the game, since Mormaers can be linked.  I'm inclined to say it shouldn't be...

On even broader topic, this is why nesting completely different effects into a single "leveled" rule is such a clumsy implementation without any upsides.

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CB went to great lengths to avoid B6 so far. It already indirectly exists in a very limited capacity for B4 troops having G:Sync troops with B2 weapons, thus rolling 6 dice for BS Attacks. There is simply something wrong when infantry can pump out more firepower than a TAG for triple it's points. It's introducing a new concept to the game and a bad one imho. If B6 makes it into the game then maybe for twin Assault Pistols in a Link, introducing that concept for AP HMGs first would be a mistake. CB tests rules and new stuff before release, B6 is probably one of the things discarded as OP a long time ago.

The more dice you roll the less you can counter the troop with unvafourable Mods because crits are a thing. Suppose I don't need to elaborate how high BS troops with B5 HMGs/HRMCs are already not just strong but pretty straight forward superior when MODs are left out of the equation. So they usualy come with some sort of downside on themselves or in their faction.

Not to forget there is a reason why CHA has AP HMGs on cheap HI and AVA Total Regular Orders for 6 points. They don't get Cutters or Achilles to fuel with those Orders. Your top of the line troop has to be cheaper and less efficient, otherwise you get a problem.

CB is very hesitant to introduce troops more powerful than existing troops for a faction. The last new troop to improve an existing ceiling ever so slightly was the Sukuel. Certain Skills and equipment are also exclusive or fluff related. You don't get something better than some sort of Rifle on a troop with Sensor, despite nothing preventing that from ever happening. There is no HRMC with any sort of Visor or Mimetism/Camo MOD (sure the Overdron has Albedo, but also BS13 to offset a slight advantage there). There will never be any sort of Full Auto on a troop that doesn't look the part. Mormaers are glorified MI with ARM5, how exactly would they carry enough HMG ammo to simply disregard all fire discipline? Speaking from a "mechanicaly oriented fluff point of view" - Full Auto only works on  S4+ models, anything else would be stupid.

Constantly getting "better" troops instead of "more diverse" ones would be a terrible thing to happen. I don't ever want to see something beating the Swiss, Marut, Intruder or Cutter in their price range. That would be plain powercreep, something we should all hope to avoid.

For what it worth I disagree there should be anything better or even comparable at shooting than a fully linked Grey in CHA. Mormaers are already quite a bit more durable, emphasizing that would be the elegant solution. Making the Mormaer the premium solution just to give the AP HMG profile some more leverage seems like a mistake. The T2 Rifle X-Visor is already an excellent troop that can defend his place next to the T2 Grey with confidence as the more durable, better gunfighter instead of having utility and Frenzy. The discussion seems a bit too focused on the AP HMG Profile as if it was the only one available.

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