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Lampyridae

Campaign Lead Discussion

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All in all, it goes to show that no one really knows what's going on with these points right now, ha ha. I'll see if I can get a clear answer out of BoW or Carlos, but I doubt it.

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Absolutely.

The Wotan conflict began with compromised Nomad smuggling.

Stage 1- ALEPH had no territory to defend, so the consensus was "aliens are on la forja. Let's get them!" Which evolved into "we have momentum here, and the CA is being contained by other factions, so let's keep going"

stage 2- We received a goal to continue on the peyote. This was interpreted as "directive from O-12". We now had territory to defend plus an additional directive.   Since we received no direct order to defend our territory and we have such few resources, we concentrated on the don peyote.

In our minds, our directive was clear and we were fulfilling our role in the narrative.

 

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Here's a simple analysis of faction performance, adjusted for player numbers. "Aggression" is number of games played per player. "Effectiveness" is points scored per player.

factions.jpg

The raw data is as follows:

     Players      Wins       Losses      Draws         W/L
ALEPH 409 376 283 44 1.33
Ariadna 498 439 464 69 0.95
Combined 547 456 437 66 1.04
Haqq 538 413 430 67 0.96
Nomads 711 531 578 85 0.92
PanO 703 560 566 82 0.99
Tohaa 278 311 208 48 1.50
Yu Jing 650 460 581 80 0.79
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5 hours ago, Pride of Rodina said:

All in all, it goes to show that no one really knows what's going on with these points right now, ha ha. I'll see if I can get a clear answer out of BoW or Carlos, but I doubt it.

I mean, I 'd question whether the people running the campaign have really finalized it... they probably have an outcome they want to see, and will implement "rules" after the campaign is over that will get them there. In that sense it's not really a "narrative" campaign in that the actions of the players have negligible effect on the narrative. 

For a CA player, having unattainable goals and no direction from the start caused a lot of people to drop out of the campaign, I noticed. The campaign seems very much about volume of wins, if what's going on there is to be believed, which means that if a more numerous faction wants a location, it doesn't even need a particularly good win/loss ratio, it can take what it wants from who it wants. Not really much point in playing unless you're Nomads/PanO/Ariadna. 

13 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

Not contesting locations is a mistake.

Would have been real cool if this was talked about at the beginning of the campaign. 

13 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

In fluff terms, Yu Jing underperforming means that it is likely that the Carrier will make a successful breakthrough. As a hyperpower, they must pick up their game.

I don't quite see how the Yu Jing playerbase bears the responsibility of having the performance of one of the setting's most powerful players when Ariadna is able to post more points than them. It's basically punishing them for something outside of their control. 

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Interesting that aleph are commenting on no directive to hold their location. The wotan pdf implies that aleph were tasked with defence of their location. 

 

We cannot ignore the narrative provided and then complain that nobody told us we had to do that. 

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Hopefully the "winners" and "losers" will be determined by more than numbers. It will be good to see some weighting for the appropriateness of factions decisions. 

What is the ramifications for haqq for attacking Baijing? What do they gain from it? 

Similarly does Ariadna face sanctions for illegally seizing Echo Commodule from Aleph?

There still has to be gain from these actions but a narrative campaign shouldn't result in X faction wins and everything now goes their way.

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Illegal seizure or heroic defence when Aleph was found wanting? All a matter of perspective... Which is actually what this boils down to. 

CA need to hold 1 theatre to win,so from a certain perspective that's an advantage, but we all know that come the weekend, that theatre will light up and become the hotbed of phase 3, with a fairly large chance another faction will be in the lead...

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12 hours ago, cazboab said:

Alternatively the points might be assigned based on the theatres as shown on the front page, which would mean that PanOceania, haqqislam,  and Ariadna only have 2 points at the moment, while the nomads still have 3...

Indeed, if it's "location held at close" and not "location held per phase" then instead the points are:

ALEPH: 1 (or maybe 0 depending on the AI Historian)
Ariadna: 2
Combined Army: 0 (or maybe 1 depending on the AI Historian)
Haqqislam: 2
Nomads: 3
PanOceania: 2 (or maybe 1 depending on the AI Historian)
Tohaa: 1
Yu Jing: 1

And this reading seems the most likely based on what Bostria has actually said.

So it's Nomads in the lead, and romping to an easy win, with Ariadna set up for 2nd.

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Wait...you guys still think there is such a thing as a "Winner" in this campaign? Now come on...has Flamestrike and the pre defined Phase updates taught you nothing?

How would a Nomad victory due to points in this campaign even look like? Oh my...their station blew up, their Dong was badly hurt and had to shrink into the void...but hey, they totally won this anyways because of...reasons....

Now don't get me wrong, I don't want to diminish Nomad achievements in this campaign, but with the fluff going as it did...turning this into a victory for them seems a bit Deus Ex Machina to me...

How would a victory in this even look like? The only one I can really see winning this campaign is PanO , cause they defended their weapons platform, and should they take over the carrier, succeeded in warding off the CA, which is basically all this Blockade is meant for....some other factions might have gained some minor economic gains...but that's not what this Blockade was supposed to represent, so what's the real benefit of that? 10% cheaper Freedom Fries at Mc Ariadna?

Anyways, just my 2 cents, keep on throwing random numbers at each other based on pure assumptions....for all I care the winner of this campaign might as well be pulled from a hat, after all no victory condition was ever stated.

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14 hours ago, Longthyme said:

Absolutely.

The Wotan conflict began with compromised Nomad smuggling.

Stage 1- ALEPH had no territory to defend, so the consensus was "aliens are on la forja. Let's get them!" Which evolved into "we have momentum here, and the CA is being contained by other factions, so let's keep going"

stage 2- We received a goal to continue on the peyote. This was interpreted as "directive from O-12". We now had territory to defend plus an additional directive.   Since we received no direct order to defend our territory and we have such few resources, we concentrated on the don peyote.

In our minds, our directive was clear and we were fulfilling our role in the narrative.

 

Stage 1: aliens were on a Nomad ships, in fact la forja had one of the lowerst CA point of all the locations. but ok. we all know how going in blind made pretty bad mistakes in war.

Stage 2: Aleph directive was to gain control of the only Nomad location (from the fluff, Don Pejote was there to save people from la forja).

 

So, you're saying that you are there only to serve humanity, even though your directive for phase 2 was to gain control of a ship that was there to save peoples :)

I mean, i'm totally fine with the directive, as we all know that in the fluff Aleph tried many time to bring nomads under his control. So no surprise there.

but i really don't understand how you can say "we are helping humankind". Aleph is simply going on with his agenda, as all the others factions! And that is totally fine from a Lore POV.

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The narrative is anyone's guess. CB have given us objectives to railroad us to where they want the plot to go, that's obvious. (It's a shame they didn't in phase 1 as it might've helped marry what folks actually did to what they were hoping for - which obviously didn't match in reality).

But what do you think the story so far is?

Remember it's not just about the 'end result' each phase. CB have been clearly responding to the swings 'in week' like CA briefly taking over Sygtir, or ALEPH leading on Don Peyote for a good week before Nomads got both hands back on their Dong.

I read it as something like:

Phase 1

CA strike teams succeed only briefly in taking control of the Sygtir 1 station but PanO responds in force. Who knows if the CA managed to get shots off at the La Forja that led to its destruction? (when they had control of the fire control system)

Tohaa strike teams manage to turn the YJ frigate away from its intended run to capture La Forja by taking the navigation deck.

La Forja is unexpectedly destroyed by suspected ALEPH or Ariadna sabotage during their 'police operations' - I can tell you that 'our' take on the narrative was that we (ALEPH) succeeded in eliminating any CA infiltrators on the shipyard. But then found indications of more on Don Peyote, take that with a pinch of salt based on the AI historian outcome. What I can say is I don't buy the idea of 'heavy fighting' as a) ALEPH doesn't have many units in the blockade to start with and certainly we know ALEPH doesn't have any heavy ordnance and b ) Ariadna were doing their best to steal the shipyard, not destroy it and c) spacefaring Nomads must know how to defend a ship without shooting holes in their own hull.

Haqqislam chill on the icicle.

Phase 2

ALEPH strike teams manage to turn the Don Peyote away from the blockade - again our take on the result was that we succeeded in rooting out an EI aspect on Don Peyote, and then went back to Bureau Hermes operational duty. Who knows what the AI historian will decide?

Ariadna defends the whole Mobase from CA strikes.

Tohaa sabotage operations continue onboard the YJ frigate and they drive it away from the blockade.

Haqqislam chill in a YJ noodle bar.

9 minutes ago, Darkvortex87 said:

Stage 1: aliens were on a Nomad ships, in fact la forja had one of the lowerst CA point of all the locations. but ok. we all know how going in blind made pretty bad mistakes in war.

Stage 2: Aleph directive was to gain control of the only Nomad location (from the fluff, Don Pejote was there to save people from la forja).

 

So, you're saying that you are there only to serve humanity, even though your directive for phase 2 was to gain control of a ship that was there to save peoples :)

I mean, i'm totally fine with the directive, as we all know that in the fluff Aleph tried many time to bring nomads under his control. So no surprise there.

but i really don't understand how you can say "we are helping humankind". Aleph is simply going on with his agenda, as all the others factions! And that is totally fine from a Lore POV.

CB's supplied objective wasn't to take control. It was to score a certain number of points in a certain theatre in a certain timeframe. What we decided we were doing was pursuing more CA infiltrators on the Peyote.

That's how we the players rationalise why ALEPH would direct its forces to that ship for lack of any other good reason.

If CB has some secret agenda for ALEPH then it hasn't shared what that agenda is with anyone, including the people playing ALEPH in this campaign.

This isn't supposed to be warfare. It's supposed to be espionage and counter-espionage. Achilles isnt' on top of the Don Peyote riding it into a black hole like Slim Pickens in Dr Strangelove. A few covert strike teams got in there and through sabotage/commandeering it, managed to steer it away from the blockade and extract/kill an Anathematic whilst they were at it, or something like that.

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@Alexb83 i think this is why it is good that players aren't writing the narrative. Your storyline is that Nomads are evil, Aleph are faultless and everything went Aleph's way. 

As a Nomad if I'm writing, Aleph pulled puppet strings to plant the shasvastii on the Nomad ship and took advantage of the chaos that ensued to attack the Nomad's Shipyard, knowing they would find nothing. Ultimately when they saw they were losing they destroyed the Shipyard to cover their tracks. 

Phase 2:

Aleph proved their intentions when they launched an unprovoked attack on Don Peyote, completely ignoring their O12 mandated purpose of defending/running the Echo commodule...

 

I'm not saying this is what happened, just pointing out how easy it is to write fluff which is totally biased towards you at the cost of another faction. 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Yasashii Fuyu said:

Anyways, just my 2 cents, keep on throwing random numbers at each other based on pure assumptions....for all I care the winner of this campaign might as well be pulled from a hat, after all no victory condition was ever stated.

The Dong retreating and the station blowing up were scripted events. Those locations are basically the redshirts that get killed to let you know that the situation is hectic. The other locations merely move into the background. Of course, there's no mention in the fluff of the YJ frigate disappearing with its tail between its legs, and that was a conquered location.

CB wants players to attack and defend. Otherwise we all shake hands together over the table and assign a game of Battle Hopscotch.

And CB definitely has its own ideas of how it wants the campaign to run. Abandoning a location to a hated upstart is something that will cost the faction heavily in the fluff. Don't believe me, PanO? Wait til the weekly update comes. Fortunately it looks like they are trying to take it back and that could well win them the campaign if they conquer the CA ship.

 

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@Kiwi SteveWhere did I say that Nomads are evil? I just said there were aliens on the Nomad ship, and we got 'em.

Yes, I think we achieved our objectives. Which weren't to destroy the Nomad shipyard, or to destroy the nomad ship. They were, playing to character, to investigate the alien incursion and to deal with it. Deal with it in the way that a limited custodial force of Lhosts would deal with it. I think the way the numbers have gone have borne that out so far for us.

Every single bit of Infinity fluff provided to date is provided by an unreliable narrator -with the exception of these campaigns-. These things wear their hearts on their sleeves. CB interpret the results and they tell us what happened, not in the form of some unverified report from Arachne about when Achilles maybe once was on a Nomad ship. 

The unreliable narrator is fine as a narrative style except that it leaves people wondering: is ALEPH actually evil or are Nomads just deluded tinfoil hat wearers?

But it butts heads with the way the campaign fallout is written because that is definitive (although not everyone will agree with how it represents the numbers and the cut/thrust of how the campaign progressed).

 

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5 minutes ago, Lampyridae said:

 

And CB definitely has its own ideas of how it wants the campaign to run. Abandoning a location to a hated upstart is something that will cost the faction heavily in the fluff. Don't believe me, PanO? Wait til the weekly update comes. Fortunately it looks like they are trying to take it back and that could well win them the campaign if they conquer the CA ship.

 

I don't follow this last bit. For example, in Flamestrike the Ariadnans betrayed the human sphere, stabbed ALEPH in the back, and even claimed to have sold the contents of an ALEPH node to the Nomads. The same Nomads that Wotan sets up as alien stooges. There's no reference to that in Wotan. No ramifications. No sanctions from the O-12 or anything like that.

The only ramifications we've seen carry over are a grudge match between YJ and Nomads that simply hasn't materialised as CB expected.

When you look at this campaign in phase 2, our walking away from Echo Commodule was the only thing to do. We could never defend it against Ariadna. So why pretend to? Why play that game? Ariadna waltzing across the corridor from their side of the Mobase doesn't have to be explained as them trying to kill ALEPH. Why would they? They need ALEPH to run the fricking commodule. 

Ariadna are the O-12 garrison, so we let them be the O-12 garrison. ALEPH's assault subsection are the anti-CA strike force so we go off and strike the CA. CB even instructed us to do it with our objective. I have no idea if they instructed Ariadna to take the commodule but imagine they did instruct the CA to attack it.

You can choose to dress it up as 'ALEPH attacks its arch enemy the Nomads' or you can, like I do, say 'actually ALEPH's arch enemy is actually the EI, and it just happens to be on a Nomad ship right now'. That's unfortunate but it really hinges on whether you think that the plot has any subtlety/nuance or it is just as simple as 'ALEPH hates the Nomads, fnar fnar'

Likewise, I think there is more subtlety to the Ariadna/ALEPH relationship than just 'hey we're enemies because you dropped Mel Gibson on us'. ALEPH is just a tool of the hyperpowers as far as most people are concerned. And the hyperpowers and Ariadna are now in an uneasy position of having to play nice. Which means Ariadna and ALEPH are in a position of having to play nice.

I daresay now that Ariadna is a 'recongnised power' and part of O-12 that ALEPH is programmed to treat them as 'just another sphere power'.

I don't even consider that 'in universe' most people would identify ALEPH as a 'standalone force'. We know for a fact that it doesn't have an 'army' or even a particularly sizeable (declared/known) military force. Maruts don't even exist as far as 75% of the the human sphere population is concerned afterall.

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*shrugs*

I don't think the core assumptions of the analysis are sound.

But God knows I expect it to SOUND like Ariadna have won the campaign if Bostria does a briefing while they hold the EXO Orbase.

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51 minutes ago, AdmiralJCJF said:

*shrugs*

I don't think the core assumptions of the analysis are sound.

But God knows I expect it to SOUND like Ariadna have won the campaign if Bostria does a briefing while they hold the EXO Orbase.

It might sound like it, but then if you look at the fluff dump for phase 3, you'd never know we're here... 

After flamestrike the fluff that's been published hasn't mentioned the conflict between Ariadna and Pan-O that was at one point nearly half of all the reports submitted. 

But that's not why we're here, we're here to have some fun, like playing a historical game of the American war of independence as the British, just because you are supposed to lose doesn't mean you have to...

I'd suggest anyone unhappy with the direction of the fluff look up "old man Henderson" grab a hawian shirt and a skateboard then go wild... 

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55 minutes ago, cazboab said:

It might sound like it, but then if you look at the fluff dump for phase 3, you'd never know we're here... 

After flamestrike the fluff that's been published hasn't mentioned the conflict between Ariadna and Pan-O that was at one point nearly half of all the reports submitted. 

But that's not why we're here, we're here to have some fun, like playing a historical game of the American war of independence as the British, just because you are supposed to lose doesn't mean you have to...

I'd suggest anyone unhappy with the direction of the fluff look up "old man Henderson" grab a hawian shirt and a skateboard then go wild... 

I think that CB should do a "fluff" for each faction, based on real events.

Example:

for nomad lore: "Nomads were set up by Aleph with false accusation of Smuggling aliens. Ariadna saw an easy target on the forja and attacked en-masse. nomad forces defended the location strenously and found no trace of combined forces on it. Aleph decided that it was best to destroy La forja, than let the plan be discovered."

for Aleph lore: "Nomads were responsible for smuggling aliens, so aleph send a garrison force to conduct research on board. Due to the -totally unexpected- assault from Ariadna and the following heavy fighting between nomad and Ariadna, La forja station suffered major structural damages and exploded"

and another explanation for ariadna.

 

that should explain all the situation in a "faction" prespective and ease future campaings

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21 hours ago, Lampyridae said:

@Longthyme yes but this is a campaign. Whether we are orks or Rebels or the United Federation of Planets, makes no difference. These are the key events in this campaign and I've put them all up so people can comment and adapt their faction priorities if need be.

Interesting to think on, for sure.

Winning the campaign is not why many people are here though. Campaigns are the time to get in character a bit and act based on fluff. Putting up and reading battle reports is fun regardless of how the campaign is going.

Achieving goals other than winning the campaign overall can be just as (if not more) gratifying too. As an ALEPH player, I never expected us to win the entire campaign, but taking Don Peyote was awesome! The question I have in my mind is not "who wins?", but "will the CA get further into the Human Sphere?".

Not saying either approach is better, but everyone gets to see it as they want.

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7 hours ago, cazboab said:

After flamestrike the fluff that's been published hasn't mentioned the conflict between Ariadna and Pan-O that was at one point nearly half of all the reports submitted. 

That's why I say it's not a "narrative" campaign; players "getting in-character" is worthless at best and actively detrimental at worst to the vision the campaign organizers have for the storyline unless it matches with their preconceived, railroaded plot. And these preconceptions and projections are not always given to the players in advance. 

4 hours ago, DarkBlack said:

The question I have in my mind is not "who wins?", but "will the CA get further into the Human Sphere?".

Welp, I have a sneaking suspicion that that will have absolutely nothing to do with the actions of players, CA or otherwise. 

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11 hours ago, AdmiralJCJF said:

*shrugs*

I don't think the core assumptions of the analysis are sound.

But God knows I expect it to SOUND like Ariadna have won the campaign if Bostria does a briefing while they hold the EXO Orbase.

+10000 no words to say 

 

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3 hours ago, Darkvortex87 said:

Let the CA win? For once?

No.

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9 minutes ago, AdmiralJCJF said:

No.

Please?

I want to see if CB will make another war zone in Svarlheima (an already enough war-torn planet, if you ask me)

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