fescrb

How do you usually build your Riot Grrl link?

65 posts in this topic

With the new figures coming out I thought it was high time to give the Grrls a try. But every option looks good, thus I'm a bit paralysed by choices. Plus a full link is half the list in points! With 0 experience with them, here's how I see it:

  • Core: Spitfire + Missile Launcher + BS Tinbot + your choice of the other profiles to fill the link. This seems almost like an obvious composition. Add some zeros to aid objective taking, cheerleaders, HMG Sin Eater  and pad out with some Morlocks and it seems like the list builds itself.
  • Haris: Big gun + Specialist + Haris? Maybe the BS Tinbot instead of the specialist? Spitfire or Missile Launcher? Having to spend a slot on the Haris profile feels like such a waste. Is this ever worth taking when the Core team is an option? Then again this + a full Moderator link is the same price as a Riot Grrl core, with 3 extra orders.

So what do you think of my assessment? How do you usually build your link team?

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I agree with your choices, based on the experience I have with link teams in other factions. Here's what I would take:

For the Core team, I'd build it as you have. I'd add a Specialist in as one of the other profiles, possibly even 2 of them. That way you'll have the Missile Launcher for dealing with heavier targets, the Spitfire as your standard weapon, the BS for closer ranges, the TinBot for hacking defence and the Specialists for scoring objectives.

For the Haris, it depends on what you want to achieve. I'd take the Haris + (2x of) Spitfire, Missile Launcher, Tinbot or Specialist. If you want to go with a fully aggressive team, take both the Missile Launcher and the Spitfire, whereas for a defensive objective team, take the TinBot and Specialist. I suspect I'd probably end up taking a balanced team of the Haris + Spitfire + Specialist and use a hacker to put Fairy Dust on them.

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I'm not a fan of mixing expensive SWC rangebands for my links. I feel like it's a popular choice but i find it hard to stomach. Either my fireteam is sitting back with multiple long range AROs or it's moving forward in closer quarters relying on others to take out long range threats. The Spitfire and ML want to be in entirely different rangebands but the fireteam moves together. To me, that's a conflict not worth 4 SWC.

In the advancing fireteam I prefer a core with Spitfire, 2 specialists, tinbot, and the multi if points permit. If they sit back i'll take 2 ML's, 1 specialist, and 2 combi+blitzen profiles. 

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png5  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL MULTI Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png5  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)

The haris profile is great imo and I have no complaints about it. 

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)

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@Jujoji I guess it comes down to how I learnt to play Link Teams. If you can't tell, I've spent a lot of time playing Tohaa, so I'm used to 3-man links of a variety of different units. The Tohaa Triads usually come down to 1 Heavy weapon, 1 Specialist and 1 Heavy Flamer. This means that they tend to move up the table with the Heavy Weapon leading and clearing a path, and the Specialist can tag the objective on the way past.

It's a different way of looking at Link Teams, and it's something I'll have to try out (when I'm not playing Tohaa).

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45 minutes ago, ningu said:

This means that they tend to move up the table with the Heavy Weapon leading and clearing a path, and the Specialist can tag the objective on the way past.

I do like the idea of activating the long range weapon to take out a threat and then move up the table. But I find that only suits the fireteam and not my entire list. Of course, the more expensive the fireteam is, the more blurred the line between the fireteam and my list becomes. If the fireteam doesn't have LoF to that threat along the path it wants to travel, I have to make a compromise somewhere. Either I leave it alone or alter my path.

I prefer to deal with the long range threat and advance each from the most optimal position. To do that, i need those rolls separate. But I can't deny having both rolled up into one 5 member core can be effective.

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6 hours ago, ningu said:

I agree with your choices, based on the experience I have with link teams in other factions. Here's what I would take:

For the Core team, I'd build it as you have. I'd add a Specialist in as one of the other profiles, possibly even 2 of them. That way you'll have the Missile Launcher for dealing with heavier targets, the Spitfire as your standard weapon, the BS for closer ranges, the TinBot for hacking defence and the Specialists for scoring objectives.

For the Haris, it depends on what you want to achieve. I'd take the Haris + (2x of) Spitfire, Missile Launcher, Tinbot or Specialist. If you want to go with a fully aggressive team, take both the Missile Launcher and the Spitfire, whereas for a defensive objective team, take the TinBot and Specialist. I suspect I'd probably end up taking a balanced team of the Haris + Spitfire + Specialist and use a hacker to put Fairy Dust on them.

I hadn't considered it, but you're right that Fairy Dust should make up for the loss of the TinBot. My most commonly fielded HI resides inside the Iguana. 

However the Haris still feels like giving up a lot for not much benefit. Or perhaps I'm overvaluing SSL2 and going to 16BS.

4 hours ago, Jujoji said:

I do like the idea of activating the long range weapon to take out a threat and then move up the table. But I find that only suits the fireteam and not my entire list. Of course, the more expensive the fireteam is, the more blurred the line between the fireteam and my list becomes. If the fireteam doesn't have LoF to that threat along the path it wants to travel, I have to make a compromise somewhere. Either I leave it alone or alter my path.

I prefer to deal with the long range threat and advance each from the most optimal position. To do that, i need those rolls separate. But I can't deny having both rolled up into one 5 member core can be effective.

That's the crux of the issue, the fact that a full link is most of the list. Adding a capable long range weapon (a Taskmaster, Moira, or Reaktion Zond w/ support) would eat up into points for infiltrating specialists, support pieces etc. And losing the ML would require another way to deal with big armoured things.

9 hours ago, Jujoji said:

The haris profile is great imo and I have no complaints about it. 

My only problem is having to choose only 2 of big gun, specialist and TinBot. 

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I feel like the default core is 1xML, 1xSpit, 1x Tin bot, 1x Specialist, 1x to taste.

My taste is an extra ML. Yes that's  all my SWC but exploding things at BS16 is AWESOME. Haha

For a Haris I think I'd take Spit, Tinbot, Haris or Spit, Specialist, Haris (and something else long range to overwatch them as they advance) But I never have because if I'm taking Grrrls I'm taking them all ;)

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10 hours ago, fescrb said:

That's the crux of the issue, the fact that a full link is most of the list.

 

Adding a capable long range weapon (a Taskmaster, Moira, or Reaktion Zond w/ support) would eat up into points for infiltrating specialists, support pieces etc.

I think you've answered your own question. Taking the Haris team gives you points to spend on other support units.

That being said, the problem with the Haris team is the Haris profile itself. It's not a great load-out, it costs the same as the Specialist but an additional SWC tax, so you wouldn't take unless forced to. Ideally you want to have 1 each of a Weapon, Specialist and the Tinbot, but the Haris profile limits you to 2 out of 3 of those profiles.

4 hours ago, Hachiman Taro said:

My taste is an extra ML. Yes that's  all my SWC but exploding things at BS16 is AWESOME. Haha

Double linked MLs  are brutal :laugh:

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I don't understand spending 2 SWC on a haris.

especially if said haris is of troops specifically made to wreck in short combat.

logo_503.png Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png3  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)

0.5 SWC | 87 Points

Open in Infinity Army

87 points for an anti-linkteam.

B3 boarding shotgun, with tinbot to laugh in the face of hackers and Blitzen for the occasional HI.

this is the bane of WB and 1 wound Linkteams.

 

 

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I feel like fire teams aren't always a good idea even when you aren't losing anything more than the standard risks and costs associated with them.

Riot Grrls have Frenzy. They pay for it. If you put them in a fire team they lose what they paid for without getting a benefit from it.

That's pretty much enough for me to just say its probably better, or at the very least safely not worse (and less annoyingly rules messy) to field your 3-5 riot girl novelty sectorial list without resorting to using fire team rules on the riot grrls.

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56 minutes ago, Pyronymer said:

I feel like fire teams aren't always a good idea even when you aren't losing anything more than the standard risks and costs associated with them.

Riot Grrls have Frenzy. They pay for it. If you put them in a fire team they lose what they paid for without getting a benefit from it.

That's pretty much enough for me to just say its probably better, or at the very least safely not worse (and less annoyingly rules messy) to field your 3-5 riot girl novelty sectorial list without resorting to using fire team rules on the riot grrls.

Frenzy is a disadvantage and thus gives a discount. The disadvantage of not benefiting from partial cover outweighs the extra order that Impetuous gives, by far.  Taking a link to suppress it is definitely the better option.

 

After having played several games with it, I cannot imagine playing Bakunin without a Riot Grrl link. They shone despite my inexperience with linkteams causing many many mistakes.

 

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On 13.07.2017 at 11:26 AM, Darkvortex87 said:

I don't understand spending 2 SWC on a haris.

especially if said haris is of troops specifically made to wreck in short combat.

logo_503.png Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png3  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)

0.5 SWC | 87 Points

Open in Infinity Army

87 points for an anti-linkteam.

B3 boarding shotgun, with tinbot to laugh in the face of hackers and Blitzen for the occasional HI.

this is the bane of WB and 1 wound Linkteams.

 

 

In my opinion you can drop such link for Duo BSG taskmasters. Who have more board control and better for dealing with camouflaged troops.

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2 hours ago, Pyronymer said:

I feel like fire teams aren't always a good idea even when you aren't losing anything more than the standard risks and costs associated with them.

Riot Grrls have Frenzy. They pay for it. If you put them in a fire team they lose what they paid for without getting a benefit from it.

If you're not taking a fireteam in a sectorial, why not just play vanilla?

Frenzy is a steep discount. Compare a Riot Grrl to a Zuyong or a Wu Ming and you'll see what I mean. They are pretty meh by themselves because of Frenzy, but Riot Grrls make up the most effective, points-efficient HI fireteam in Infinity.

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I have never seen the OP riot grrl link that I see everyone complain about.  I can't imagine being happy with them in a game that was fun.  I almost exclusively play bakunin and a riot grrl link eats into my points so deeply I end up feeling like I've just ended up fielding an underpowered yu jing list. 

The Haris option is the only way I have managed to bring them and still use a fun list.  They can outperform a lizard with only a few extra points and slightly more versatility. I wouldn't use a specialist in the team because zeros do that job easier and cheaper. 

A very cheap ml full team is an interesting idea for bakunin which usually has trouble getting that range superiority,  but probably more of a trick than full list tactic. Might be good counter to ariadna?

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7 hours ago, BLOODGOD said:

Riot Grrls make up the most effective, points-efficient HI fireteam in Infinity.

That's a fascinating thing to say from someone who was just now comparing them to Yu Jing Units.

Because Domaru Butai are basically the same as Riot Grrls give or take some largely equivalent abilities, and are a bit cheaper, and their fire team can mix in a character and a separate troop profile that fills the weapons gaps they have compared to Riot Grrls and that extra profile is Extreme Impetuous for a more believable discount. Domaru and Haramaki are over all cheaper and probably have access to over all more bells and whistles than Riot Grrls, so to call Riot Grrls the most effective and points efficient HI fire team in the game when a highly similar and cheaper direct equivalent exists is... remarkable.

Regardless when I look at various Frenzy profiles I am not seeing a discount. I'm seeing troops that pay relatively little to nothing in points cost for the potentially beneficial Frenzy ability but STILL pay the basic opportunity cost of not taking something else entirely, and the more elaborate opportunity costs of the other profile elements that seem to be commonly associated with Frenzy troops, like lower defensive values and a focus on shorter range options and spending half their profile on range closing abilities. You pay a cost for bringing Frenzy troops. And it isn't the Frenzy.

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How you build your link is not just about the link, it's also how you support it. Just as critical as the load-outs you pick!

logo_503.png Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL MULTI Rifle, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 32)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_2.pngREVEREND MOIRA MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (1.5 | 34)
logo_25.pngZOE & PI-WELL . (0 | 47)
 sep.giflogo_25.pngZOE (Hacking Device. UPGRADE: Stop!) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)
 sep.giflogo_25_2.pngPI-WELL Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 19)
logo_13.pngDAKTARI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_3.pngREVEREND CUSTODIER Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 34)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_irregular.png2  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_10.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)
logo_10.pngMORLOCK Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 6)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Plenty of specialists, plenty of firepower of varying types, ODD, MSV, hackers and warbands. With this force I'm reasonably sure that I can dominate firepower engagements on my terms at any range, and I'm flexible enough to deal with various threats. It's not like with a couple of hackers and various Repeaters in the list that I can't deal with enemy heavy troops as well, so there's really nothing to fear here.

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2 hours ago, Pyronymer said:

That's a fascinating thing to say from someone who was just now comparing them to Yu Jing Units.

Because Domaru Butai are basically the same as Riot Grrls give or take some largely equivalent abilities, and are a bit cheaper, and their fire team can mix in a character and a separate troop profile that fills the weapons gaps they have compared to Riot Grrls and that extra profile is Extreme Impetuous for a more believable discount. Domaru and Haramaki are over all cheaper and probably have access to over all more bells and whistles than Riot Grrls, so to call Riot Grrls the most effective and points efficient HI fire team in the game when a highly similar and cheaper direct equivalent exists is... remarkable.

Regardless when I look at various Frenzy profiles I am not seeing a discount. I'm seeing troops that pay relatively little to nothing in points cost for the potentially beneficial Frenzy ability but STILL pay the basic opportunity cost of not taking something else entirely, and the more elaborate opportunity costs of the other profile elements that seem to be commonly associated with Frenzy troops, like lower defensive values and a focus on shorter range options and spending half their profile on range closing abilities. You pay a cost for bringing Frenzy troops. And it isn't the Frenzy.

Cross faction comparisons are worthless, Bakunin don't get Domaru/Haramaki.  Frenzy is long established as a deep discount based on like comparisons within factions, that's why the Riot link punches above it's weight.  Sure, you can spend the points on other choices, that how list building works.  HI links are always going to be a significant point sink. 

The value of Riot Grrls to me comes down to the fact that BS13 and MSV1 combined with the link bonuses and tool box of weapons provide for a very reliable attacking piece that ignores a lot of negative mods.  In ARO this makes them very difficult to reliably shift.  With 2W and ARM3 they can take a bit to shift, though they are not tanks like the Taskmaster.  Hyper-Dynamics1 gives them a bonus out when the mods are really stacked against you or DTW are employed. 

Personally, I'm liking the following but often drop to the Haris as this is very SWC intensive and doesn't give much room for orders/specialists:

logo_503.png Jurisdictional Command of Bakunin
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png5  
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Blitzen, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 33)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (2 | 34)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_7.pngRIOT GRRL Boarding Shotgun, Stun Grenades + TinBot B (Deflector L2) / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)

4 SWC | 154 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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The only penalty caused by frenzying is you stop claiming cover.  I think that's a fair trade for free orders. I'm not sure why it should cost anything. 

I thought the riot girls were so cheap because for a hi they are about half the punch.  They are by no means weak and the only missile launcher in bakunin, but in vanilla I think almost everyone skipped them and went right to the mobile brigada for the armor,  guns,  and practically everything.

Subjective impressions that prevent me from happily adding them to my lists: 

There's just something off about a unit that expects to dodge forward until they are in range. The missile launcher is under armored for a long range shoot out. The msv is nice but I find that the girls ideal range is under 16" same as most camo so I'm ignoring their -3 by stepping into their +3? No deal. 

A full link team is just too much tax for the buff up to decent.  I face off against li link teams with msr and ml that clean them up for breakfast with change left over for lunch and most of dinner. 

/over simplified analysis

So build according to what your list needs.  I find the Harris a decent order efficient counter to solo Rambo units.  Don't cover an area with just 1 of them.  Use the whole firing squad.

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4 hours ago, Pyronymer said:

That's a fascinating thing to say from someone who was just now comparing them to Yu Jing Units.

Because Domaru Butai are basically the same as Riot Grrls give or take some largely equivalent abilities, and are a bit cheaper, and their fire team can mix in a character and a separate troop profile that fills the weapons gaps they have compared to Riot Grrls and that extra profile is Extreme Impetuous for a more believable discount. Domaru and Haramaki are over all cheaper and probably have access to over all more bells and whistles than Riot Grrls, so to call Riot Grrls the most effective and points efficient HI fire team in the game when a highly similar and cheaper direct equivalent exists is... remarkable.

Regardless when I look at various Frenzy profiles I am not seeing a discount. 

Domaru and Haramaki get better CC but worse everything else. Riot Grrls get MSV1 (which is huge), deflector level 2 on their tinbot (the JSA HI are extremely vulnerable to hacking), hyperdynamics to better dodge templates, and very importantly, a specialist. 

I'm not sure how much time you've spent looking, but it's not that hard to see. Like I mentioned before, compare the tinbot Wu ming with the tinbot grrl. The latter gets MSV1 and hyperdynamics for "free" before you take frenzy into account.

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4 hours ago, BLOODGOD said:

Domaru and Haramaki get better CC but worse everything else.

That... just plain is not true. 

The Domaru get substantially better CC and CC related features, their profile is otherwise largely identical except for worse BS (by a whole 1) and better Ph (by a whole 1). They are otherwise very similar on weapon options except they trade stun grenades for E/M grenades (not a bad trade), have actual CC weapons (a big deal), get access to cheap nice Chain rifles that the Riot Grrls cannot have and miss out on Blitzen and Missile Launchers. But they actually don't miss out on Blitzen and Missile Launchers because their attached Haramaki get them, and get them with 13 BS the same as the Riot Grrls and indeed a base profile that exclusively the same or better than Riot Grrls. And if you want a chain rifle Domaru you can go ahead and call it a character for a slightly better profile and accessories.

And they all miss out on MSV1, a nice option everyone would like but is by far not "huge". Not having hyperdynamics is unfortunate but they DO get that higher Ph and Kinematika (2 no less) which if not breaks even comes incredibly close.

That is absolutely not "worse at everything else". That is a directly comparable unit that is of over all relatively negligible difference, that is cheaper and has slightly more options and also far better at CC.

And yes cross factional comparisons are of limited value, but when the claim is that Riot Grrls are the best value for points HI fire team in the game, in the same post as cross factional comparisons to the faction with Domaru and Haramaki linked teams in, it is very much worth pointing out, no no they are clearly not THE best value at that potential role in the game because ignoring whether that is even anything other than faint praise or an advisable role to have at all basically the same thing exists elsewhere, indeed right there in the faction being pointed at for comparison, only cheaper.

That's kind of what happens when you make an absolutist claim like 'the best". If it was just "they're good value/good at this role" it would be a more complex argument, if it was "they're OK" i wouldn't even disagree, but it is absolutely trivially observable fact that they are not "the best value HI fire team in the game" due to the first and most obvious comparison you might test that claim with.

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I don't tend to use CC a lot on my Missile launcher links.

But Riot Grrls are great. Haramaki are also great.

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Just pointing out the Domaru-Haramaki team is exclusively a kill/area denial team. They perform that job well, but they aren't flipping any switches.

The Wu Ming comparison is a more apt because of the ability to both hammer away at things and grab those objectives.

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5 hours ago, Pyronymer said:

That... just plain is not true. 

The Domaru get substantially better CC and CC related features, their profile is otherwise largely identical except for worse BS (by a whole 1) and better Ph (by a whole 1). They are otherwise very similar on weapon options except they trade stun grenades for E/M grenades (not a bad trade), have actual CC weapons (a big deal), get access to cheap nice Chain rifles that the Riot Grrls cannot have and miss out on Blitzen and Missile Launchers. But they actually don't miss out on Blitzen and Missile Launchers because their attached Haramaki get them, and get them with 13 BS the same as the Riot Grrls and indeed a base profile that exclusively the same or better than Riot Grrls. And if you want a chain rifle Domaru you can go ahead and call it a character for a slightly better profile and accessories.

And they all miss out on MSV1, a nice option everyone would like but is by far not "huge". Not having hyperdynamics is unfortunate but they DO get that higher Ph and Kinematika (2 no less) which if not breaks even comes incredibly close.

That is absolutely not "worse at everything else". That is a directly comparable unit that is of over all relatively negligible difference, that is cheaper and has slightly more options and also far better at CC.

And yes cross factional comparisons are of limited value, but when the claim is that Riot Grrls are the best value for points HI fire team in the game, in the same post as cross factional comparisons to the faction with Domaru and Haramaki linked teams in, it is very much worth pointing out, no no they are clearly not THE best value at that potential role in the game because ignoring whether that is even anything other than faint praise or an advisable role to have at all basically the same thing exists elsewhere, indeed right there in the faction being pointed at for comparison, only cheaper.

That's kind of what happens when you make an absolutist claim like 'the best". If it was just "they're good value/good at this role" it would be a more complex argument, if it was "they're OK" i wouldn't even disagree, but it is absolutely trivially observable fact that they are not "the best value HI fire team in the game" due to the first and most obvious comparison you might test that claim with.

Yes, Domaru and Haramaki are excellent in CC, while Riot Grrls are bad in CC. This is not particularly important to me in a link. I could be wrong, but I expect I'm in the majority here. MSV1 is equivalent to +3 BS in the occasions where it works, and low-vis zones, camo, and ODD are pretty common things to which it's very helpful to have a ready-made solution. Hyperdynamics more than covers the PH difference for the most common use case. You've ignored the hacking vulnerabilities, but those are very meta-dependent so perhaps camo assault hackers are just not a thing with which you have to deal. The biggest flaw in your argument, though, is that you've ignored the lack of a specialist in the Domaru/Haramaki link. For a fireteam that takes up half my army list, there are a very limited set of scenarios where having no specialists is acceptable. All of these things add up to Domaru/Haramaki links being good at CC and close quarters combat, but less effective at other tasks common to links that move up the board: dealing with camo (although their direct templates are not bad), pushing buttons, and being resilient to hacking.

I'm sticking with my original statement "Domaru/Haramaki are [much] better at CC and worse at everything else" (though I will throw you that "much" because it's true), and I don't think you've made much of an argument for your "just plain is not true" statement. Domaru/Haramaki links are great for the small number of scenarios where players are willing to spend ~150 pts on a centerpiece link with no specialists. Riot Grrl links are great for a much wider variety of scenarios and battlefield roles, and truly inferior in only one, that I would classify as corner-case for an HI link.

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I tell you what why don't you clarify that by "everything else" you mean shooting at cammo troopers and having a specialist in the wrong place at the wrong time and then we can call it a nearly correct statement.

And of course I "ignored hacking vulnerability" they have identical WIP and BTS, unless the Domaru link brings the character, who has higher WIP and double the BTS

Edited by Pyronymer
minor jargon correction
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17 minutes ago, Pyronymer said:

 

And of course I "ignored hacking vulnerability" they have identical WIP and BTS, unless the Domaru link brings the character, who has higher WIP and double the BTS

Tinbot B is a big buff i think, that said ma is pretty good for hi too when facing hackers.

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