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sarf

Suppression Fire on trooper with multiple weapons

Question

Question was raised at "Kriza Boracs, Tunguska Crisis Special Unit - Speculation" tread about Mk12 + SMG loadout.

So, Kriza has two weapons with Suppression Fire trait and wants to enter Suppression Fire state. Can Kriza choose what weapon is used as SF BS Attack in ARO each time this ARO occurs? Or  only single weapon should be chosen at the moment of entering Suppression fire state?

As noted in http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/49753-kriza-boracs-tunguska-crisis-special-unit-speculation/?do=findComment&comment=949416

SUPPRESSIVE FIRE ENTIRE ORDER
Attack.
REQUIREMENTS

The user must employ a weapon with the Suppressive Fire Trait.

EFFECTS

"You have to employ a weapon to declare the state.  The state is then tied to that particular weapon." Yes, but it doesn`t specify that state should be tied to one, not multiple weapons, possibly because it never happened before. Also in general state is tied to trooper, not weapon

Moving to Effects of SF State:

Effects

It`s a bit unclear here, can Kriza replace two weapon profiles with SF Mode profile? If yes, Kriza can respond with either DAM15/AP/Shock  SF BS Attack in ARO.


IMPORTANT!
Only weapons with the Trait Suppressive Fire in their Weapons Table profile may be used to declare SF. With very few exceptions, only weapons with B3 or higher may be used to declare SF. Weapons with B2 or lower, or whose Traits box does not indicate Suppressive Fire capabilities, cannot be used to declare SF, even if they apply a MOD that would make their B higher than 2.

This part of the rule states Weapons in plural, so no mention that only one weapon will be used to declare SF.

And Cancellation clause:

Cancellation

The Suppressive Fire state is automatically cancelled in any of these cases:

  • The trooper declares an ARO different from a BS Attack using Suppressive Fire.
  • The trooper uses a weapon that cannot be used for Suppressive Fire.

There are no problems if Kriza replaces both Mk12 and SMG profiles with SF Mode profile. In this case any of these ARO will be BS Attack using SF.

 

So I don`t see specific limitation to force trooper change only one weapon to Suppression Fire mode. What do you think?

 

 

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30 answers to this question

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Well, you are allowed to choose ammunition when declaring ARO: Suppressive Fire (eg. you were Suppressing with weapon like a MultiRifle). I don't see anything saying you can't be choosing your weapon in just the same moment, as long as it will be a weapon capable of suppressive fire.

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I bold for emphasis:

"The SF Mode profile alters the Range and B values of the weapon being used, but not Damage, which remains unchanged. Similarly, the weapon maintains Type of Ammunition and Traits while in SF Mode."

"While in Suppressive Fire, the SF Mode profile replaces the trooper's usual BS Weapon profile."

The SF MODE alters the Weapon, not the weapons profile. SF mode is entered when an order is used on applying supressive fire state to a model, not when the attack is declared, it is different from ammunition in this way.

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@Wombat85 do you declare which weapon you're setting SF with?

I do not recall such a rule. True, so far I had no model with two different SF-capable weapons, but... Let's assume we're talking about the OP's Kriza Borac Mk12 profile:

  • he can set SF with two weapons: SMG or MK12.
    • In case of SMG, he'll be dispensing DAM 13 and a choice of either Shock or AP ammo.
    • In case of Mk12, it'll be DAM 15 normal ammo.

In either case, same range, same Burst of 3. Both weapons are SF-capable.

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It appears to hinge on the fact that to declare Suppressive Fire you must employ a weapon with that trait. 

This suggests to me that you would declare "Suppressive Fire employing my SMG" or "Suppressive Fire employing my Mk12" rather than simply "Suppressive Fire". 

However that is my RAI and I would agree to the need of an FAQ for clarity. 

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Almost unrelated sidenote: Would a trooper who uses twin SMGs get +1B during suppressive fire?

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1 minute ago, Commoner1 said:

Almost unrelated sidenote: Would a trooper who uses twin SMGs get +1B during suppressive fire?

No, twin weapons only applies in the active turn, Suppressive Fire only works in the Reactive. 

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Thanks, you were faster answering than I was looking for the rule! :-)

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2 hours ago, Col said:

It appears to hinge on the fact that to declare Suppressive Fire you must employ a weapon with that trait. 

This suggests to me that you would declare "Suppressive Fire employing my SMG" or "Suppressive Fire employing my Mk12" rather than simply "Suppressive Fire". 

However that is my RAI and I would agree to the need of an FAQ for clarity. 

Yeah, that`s RAI. As RAW it looks like "I have some weapon with Suppression Fire trait and declare Suppression Fire". There is implication that trooper should change the weapon (the weapon means only one) to SF mode but it`s not stated explicitly that this bullet should be applied only once. I don`t recall any other profile with two weapons eligible to be used in Suppression Fire.

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How do any of you arguing for being able to change weapons get past "employ?" It means use! You're making an attack using a specific weapon. So no, you must (without some kind of official response to the contrary) choose your weapon when you go into SF and you can't change it without losing the SF state.

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44 minutes ago, BLOODGOD said:

How do any of you arguing for being able to change weapons get past "employ?" It means use! You're making an attack using a specific weapon. So no, you must (without some kind of official response to the contrary) choose your weapon when you go into SF and you can't change it without losing the SF state.

This make sense. You know, that`s first time I`ve ever encountered keyword "employ" in meaning of "use". Maybe that`s because I`m not English native speaker, because I`ve always read Order requirements as "Trooper is able to use" or "Trooper possess". Such a fancy word.

It would be great if anywhere else  will be mentioned that there are some declaration that locks suppressive fire to one weapon or that declaration is limited to one weapon. After all that`s first precedent.

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2 minutes ago, sarf said:

This make sense. You know, that`s first time I`ve ever encountered keyword "employ" in meaning of "use". Maybe that`s because I`m not English native speaker, because I`ve always read Order requirements as "Trooper is able to use" or "Trooper possess". Such a fancy word.

It would be great if anywhere else  will be mentioned that there are some declaration that locks suppressive fire to one weapon or that declaration is limited to one weapon. After all that`s first precedent.

Closest I have is the FAQ that says you are allowed to pick ammo type every time you declare a Suppressive Fire ARO, this indicates (by omission) that you you choose the weapon during declaration of the Suppressive Fire Entire Order. 

RAW can honestly go either way at the moment. 

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I would also argue that "a" pretty clearly specifies that you enter SF with a single weapon... implying that if you have multiple weapons with said trait, that you much choose which one upon declaring SF.

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52 minutes ago, BLOODGOD said:

How do any of you arguing for being able to change weapons get past "employ?" It means use! You're making an attack using a specific weapon. So no, you must (without some kind of official response to the contrary) choose your weapon when you go into SF and you can't change it without losing the SF state.

I do not think anyone is arguing for it as much as the Kriza profile made us wonder about the wording and we saw there is enough leeway in the way it is currently written that asking for clarification to avoid future arguments was a good idea. Most of the rule imply, but do not state, that you only get the one weapon option, but avoiding confusion is a good thing.

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To ride on this question: If you're using a weapon like a Multi Rifle, when you suppress, you can only choose AP or Shock since that's the Burst 3 ammo, correct?

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9 minutes ago, Vita Nova said:

To ride on this question: If you're using a weapon like a Multi Rifle, when you suppress, you can only choose AP or Shock since that's the Burst 3 ammo, correct?

The Anti-materiel and Stun profiles don't have the Suppressive Fire trait, so using either of them would cancel the Suppressive Fire state. 

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/index.php?title=Rifle&redirect=no#MULTI_Rifle

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I'm also on the side of suppressive fire being tied to a particular weapon, due to the wording.

I asked this question back when N3 came out, but at the time it was purely hypothetical.

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I'd argue that the "employ " part is not important to the final outcome.  That is a requirement of entering a state,  nothing more.  It is not a detail of the state the trooper find itself in during the reactive turn.

I recommend a faq saying that the trooper entered the suppressive fire state "with one weapon possessing the suppressive fire trait " since that more clearly explains the state came with some type of context. 

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The Spanish version of Suppressive Fire says:

"Es necesario disponer de un arma que posea la Propiedad Fuego de Supresion."

where the English version says "The user must employ a weapon with the Suppressive Fire trait."

According to the machine, the Spanish version's disponer results in 'It is necessary to -have- a weapon that has the Suppressive Fire trait.' after adjusting for Rules Spanish and Rules English.

Comparing Suppressive Fire (State) and Fuego de Supresion (Estado), I think the better case is that Suppressive Fire changes all of the relevant weapon profiles on the model.

Disclaimer:  My Spanish is terrible.  

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

"Es necesario disponer de un arma que posea la Propiedad Fuego de Supresion."

Disclaimer:  My Spanish is terrible.  

but the translation is good.

we need an official response. because reading the spanish rules seems that the "fuego de sopresion" is not tied to any specific weapon in the profile.

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I don't see how one can make an argument that holds water for prohibiting more than one SF-capable weapon in lieu of a strong official or semi-official clarification (on the level of IJW clarifying how the rule was playtested). When AROing, you follow the regular ARO process and declare BS Attack, selecting weapons, fire modes and declare use of Suppression Fire state and then you look at Suppression Fire state to see if anything you declared has cancelled the state. If you made use of a specific weapon to declare entering the state, this is not linked anywhere in the Suppression Fire state text.
As it is, the weapon is just a key to make use of the skill. I mean, for example, we know a Fireteam: Haris isn't broken as soon as any model in the link with the skill is kicked out (unless they were the leader).

By the by, "disponer", roughly means "to command" or "have access to" in this context and strongly hints that "employ" should be read in future passive tense as opposed to present active tense like is being suggested. That is, "to have [a weapon with suppressive fire] in your employ". 

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To come back to the example with a Multi Rifle. You're already using a weapon that the rule Supressive Fire. But the weapon itself has 1 Profile with SF and 2 without thanks to Light Multi.

Name Range (inches) DAM B Ammo Traits
Short Medium Long Maximum
MULTI Rifle (Burst Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 3 AP/Shock Light MULTI, Suppressive Fire
MULTI Rifle (Anti-materiel Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 1 DA Anti-materiel, Light MULTI
MULTI Rifle (Stun Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 1 Stun Light MULTI, Non-Lethal

You're always using Burst Mode so switching in between AP and Shock shouldn't be a problem. But how does that work for a SMG with 2 distinct AP and Shock Profiles?

Name Range (inches) DAM B Ammo Traits
Short Medium Long Maximum
Submachine Gun (AP Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" 0 16-24" -3 24-32" -6 13 3 AP Suppressive Fire
Submachine Gun (Shock Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" 0 16-24" -3 24-32" -6 13 3 Shock Suppressive Fire

Looks like SMGs can't switch in SF?

In case they can you're basically already switching weapon profiles, there is not real any technical difference from switching to the MK12 in that case as far as the rules are written.

@IJW Wartrader any thoughts which case applies?

 

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6 hours ago, Teslarod said:

To come back to the example with a Multi Rifle. You're already using a weapon that the rule Supressive Fire. But the weapon itself has 1 Profile with SF and 2 without thanks to Light Multi.

Name Range (inches) DAM B Ammo Traits
Short Medium Long Maximum
MULTI Rifle (Burst Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 3 AP/Shock Light MULTI, Suppressive Fire
MULTI Rifle (Anti-materiel Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 1 DA Anti-materiel, Light MULTI
MULTI Rifle (Stun Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" +3 16-32" -3 32-48" -6 13 1 Stun Light MULTI, Non-Lethal

You're always using Burst Mode so switching in between AP and Shock shouldn't be a problem. But how does that work for a SMG with 2 distinct AP and Shock Profiles?

Name Range (inches) DAM B Ammo Traits
Short Medium Long Maximum
Submachine Gun (AP Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" 0 16-24" -3 24-32" -6 13 3 AP Suppressive Fire
Submachine Gun (Shock Mode) 0-8" +3 8-16" 0 16-24" -3 24-32" -6 13 3 Shock Suppressive Fire

Looks like SMGs can't switch in SF?

In case they can you're basically already switching weapon profiles, there is not real any technical difference from switching to the MK12 in that case as far as the rules are written.

@IJW Wartrader any thoughts which case applies?

 

Interesting point. Does anyone know if the ruling that you could swap ammo referenced SMGs or just Multiweapons?

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Like much of Infinity, interpret the rule as you see fit and get slapped in the face at a tournament when someone rules another way. :rain-cloud: 

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I'm late to the game, and certainly not an expert when it comes to the rules, but the way I'd read getting in to SF mode is:

 

use a SF weapon to enter the SF state (which I guess would only apply in like a holoprojector situation, a guy with a missile launcher pretending to be a guy with a rifle can't SF)

in the SF state any weapon with the SF trait is available for a SF ARO.

I'm going to support that with the same argument as the OP:

Cancellation

The Suppressive Fire state is automatically cancelled in any of these cases:

  • The trooper declares an ARO different from a BS Attack using Suppressive Fire.
  • The trooper uses a weapon that cannot be used for Suppressive Fire.

as long as a SF weapon is used, the state isn't canceled. It's similar to foxhole, the trooper is sitting in a state where they have all the appropriately available tools and can still use the right tool for the right situation. 

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@AbidingDude went were I was going to go!

Once you enter Suppressive Fire state the SF Mode replaces all BS Weapon profiles until the State in cancelled.  The state is not cancelled if you declare ARO BS Attack using a weapon with the Suppressive Fire trait.  Therefore, you can use any weapon with the Suppressive Fire trait.

Effects

Cancellation

The Suppressive Fire state is automatically cancelled in any of these cases:

  • [...]
  • The trooper declares an ARO different from a BS Attack using Suppressive Fire.
  • The trooper uses a weapon that cannot be used for Suppressive Fire.
  • [...]
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