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BlackCadian

Hac Tao and Daofei worth their points?

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Just play in tables bigger than the ridiculous standard size for ITS format and a Dao Fei HMG starts becoming more useful. That being said, the option is there and the miniature allows an incredible easy weapon swap.

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3 hours ago, Janzerker said:

Just play in tables bigger than the ridiculous standard size for ITS format and a Dao Fei HMG starts becoming more useful. That being said, the option is there and the miniature allows an incredible easy weapon swap.

Basically this.  The Yu Jing HMG and Spitfire are damn close in appearance as is, so proxying is no issue.

And my group tends to play 300 points on a 4'x6' and it definitely gives infiltrators with long ranged weapons some room to breathe on the flanks.  And if I'm not running the Daofei as a hyper-aggressive spitfire LT, I actually like the HMG as a mid-field anti-sniper.  Enough shots and range to beat out single-shot ARO's, and the camo+cover+surprise means they usually aren't getting incredibly high to-hit numbers in return.  Makes countering back-field snipers a much easier prospect.  And if something gets close, that's what the Guilang minelayer was for anyways (and in all honestly, the HMG does just fine in supp fire at close range while stacking debuffs on debuffs for those silly enough to try and contend with the Daofei).

The HMG isn't my preferred loadout anymore, but it isn't a bad one either, especially in vanilla where you can have a Tiger and Guilang working alongside it to create a killer dream team for all ranges and tasks.

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7 hours ago, Janzerker said:

Just play in tables bigger than the ridiculous standard size for ITS format and a Dao Fei HMG starts becoming more useful. That being said, the option is there and the miniature allows an incredible easy weapon swap.

I mean... yeah, but that really defeats the purpose of answering a question "is this unit worth it?" if we are just changing the rules to make it worth it lol

Even on the standard table size, the HMG is not at all bad. It just allows other infiltrators an opening to attack you in your bad ranges usually. For example, a TO guy with a shotgun is gonna shred you. It also changes the role of the Dao Fei from a midfield bully/specialist to a long range removal piece , like for snipers as @Durandal said. 

A problem in yu jing is we have many units in vanilla who are capable of doing the same things at varying levels of efficacy. But even the baseline HMG Zu Yong is good at what he does , so it can be hard to justify an HMG DaoFei who steps on the toes of so many other units, whereas the spitfire and multirifle versions are more unique, which is what makes them appealing to me. 

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Posted (edited)

You guys are also forgeting the point that the Dao fei infiltrates on the oponent sides at 11 and if you chose to deploy the hmg version even if you fail the infilitration roll he will still be usefull unlike most infiltrators. 

Edited by Greysturm
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Both seem to be strong models to me.  I'm just getting back into the game but used to play years ago and they have alway been solid.

The other night my Hac Tao w/ HMG took on much of the opposing army by himself and won.  Total Reaction HMG drone in cover w/ Engineer and Hacker giving him the ability to ignore cover?  No problem, I've got a Hac Tao!  Took him down easily along with an enemy Hsien and a couple other minor models while my Zhanshi Sniper and Tiger w/ Boarding Shotgun cleaned up the other major threats.

I didn't run my Daofei in that list (I used a Wu Ming as my 2nd HI instead), but I beg poor memory as a contributing reason - this was my first game after a long absence.  Having a camo'ed HI up the board with a nice weapon is excellent board control that will help cover the rest of your guys so they can get into better positions as well.

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1 hour ago, Greysturm said:

You guys are also forgeting the point that the Dao fei infiltrates on the oponent sides at 11 and if you chose to deploy the hmg version even if you fail the infilitration roll he will still be usefull unlike most infiltrators. 

Yes and no, the problem is that if you do the across the line infiltration you're going to be fighting at -3 range bands a lot. Also PH 11 isn't very great chance for a 50+ model. 

I think with HMG you want to infiltrate a short distance or abuse terrain for maximum encounter distances. Optimal loadout would be a cheaper forward deploy L1 camo HI for the HMG, but that's not what we got.

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8 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Yes and no, the problem is that if you do the across the line infiltration you're going to be fighting at -3 range bands a lot. Also PH 11 isn't very great chance for a 50+ model. 

I think with HMG you want to infiltrate a short distance or abuse terrain for maximum encounter distances. Optimal loadout would be a cheaper forward deploy L1 camo HI for the HMG, but that's not what we got.

Not necessarily, first besides the hmg you also have the pistol and decent close combat skills (surprise attack). secondly if you manage to infiltrate the enemy side youll probably be able to hit some back archs if you did it properly and finally the zero range is quite achievable and at that position youll be able to deny cover netting you the same result as midtable deployment, This is without mentionint the possibility of cross table warfare from an unexpected angle.

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4 hours ago, Greysturm said:

Not necessarily, first besides the hmg you also have the pistol and decent close combat skills (surprise attack). secondly if you manage to infiltrate the enemy side youll probably be able to hit some back archs if you did it properly and finally the zero range is quite achievable and at that position youll be able to deny cover netting you the same result as midtable deployment, This is without mentionint the possibility of cross table warfare from an unexpected angle.

First and foremost, the Daofei CC ability is terrible*. The fact that it stacks up against a pistol is saying everything. The only reason to melee with Daofei is that it protects the Daofei in the reactive turn. Trying to melee will most of the time just waste orders getting into melee unless your melee skill is stellar or unless you have no other options - and the Daofei has other options, namely the HMG which except for ARO in sub-8" is better than both CC and pistol.

Second of all, you're really downgrading your chances of doing anything useful except scare your opponent by infiltrating a Daofei HMG instead of an Oniwaban or Daofei Spitfire. The Oniwaban has acceptable ranged options, cost less, has higher chance of infiltrating and can be used for the same purposes even if you don't get the first turn. Oniwaban just has a worse consequence of rolling 18 (my go-to roll for infiltration) than any of the Daofei loadouts.

If I were to infiltrate a Daofei like that then Daofei Spitfire to me strikes that middle ground between lethal from the side or rear, but still very useful if the infiltration fails. Don't get me wrong, there's value in infiltrating the Daofei HMG like that, but I think there's more value in infiltrating a Spitfire instead.

* keep in mind that while the number might sound high, you are never going to get +3 range band, you won't have cover, and you will have 1 burst. CC below 19 is not worth mentioning, and you're probably going to need martial arts to get anything done at 19. Even Miranda with a Mono CCW is depressingly bad at actually getting kills with it.

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Infiltration skill does not need to be always used to bring the unit as close to the enemy as possible even if it allows the HMG Daofei to be placed on a building a few inches outside the ZOC that dominates the battlefield or close enouph to kill that enemy sniper unit it is well used, of course you could set Daofei on one board edge at the middle and just pump orders on it to walk to the enemy deployment zone and start killing at preferable range.

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That's a good point.  Going to the middle line doesn't have to mean the center of the middle line.  Keeping them close to a board edge can help preserve long range if that was your goal.

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13 hours ago, PsychoticStorm said:

Infiltration skill does not need to be always used to bring the unit as close to the enemy as possible even if it allows the HMG Daofei to be placed on a building a few inches outside the ZOC that dominates the battlefield or close enouph to kill that enemy sniper unit it is well used, of course you could set Daofei on one board edge at the middle and just pump orders on it to walk to the enemy deployment zone and start killing at preferable range.

If you're infiltrating across the midline, you might as well try for all the way across the table at the edge of your opponent's DZ to get HMG shots into the backs of your opponent's troops as the opponent's troops approach your DZ.  Same idea as with Ninja Snipers.

 

But anyway, I'd rather have the spitfire or assault hacker

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Yeah, if you're going in deep, that isn't where you want the HMG.  The HMG Daofei either wants a far flanking position in your half of No Man's Land, or it wants to get in to a comfy firing position that couldn't be reached otherwise.  If it is diving in to the enemy's heart?  Spitfire or AHD all day, every day.

The HMG isn't as terrible in close as is often stated, but if you plan to take the Daofei there, then may as well save the points.  The HMG's bread and butter is playing range control against mid-range guns and threatening backfield snipers with something their bonuses can't browbeat.

It is the kind of thing to take when you have some aggressive forward elements that need covering fire to move in closer.  Using a well-placed Daofei HMG to down a sniper's nest so your Su-Jian can rip down a path unimpeded and get in to a good firing position?  That's the stuff.  Or maybe use it to clear a landing zone for an aggressive push by a Tiger Spitfire.  Basically, the HMG Daofei is used more like a forward supporting fire element and gun emplacement that can always get to the perfect position.  It is more specialized than the others, but it can handle jobs a Spitfire simply isn't usually up to the task of.  But meanwhile, the Spitfire is the more well-rounded and cheaper loadout.  In general, I'd go with the Spitfire unless I had a specific plan that required having an camo HMG that was already where I wanted it to be.

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I am not saying it is the most optimal position I did say that its Infiltration comes quite handy for just out of deployment positioning, but going to the enemy deployment is also a valid tactic, much more difficult to pull off.

Honestly while Spitfire seems better its all about positioning to utilise the HMG, of course both are valid options that cater to different battlefield roles.

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I like HMG on the Hellcat. If your opponent usually takes 3+ SK it might not be a good idea but not everyone does that in every meta.

I would pair it with a Guilang Combi though.

 

Like the Hellcat HMG don't try to discount it without giving it a real try. A lot of things can be hard to analyze off table.

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5 hours ago, Loricus said:

I like HMG on the Hellcat.

I don't think you can compare an AD troop that doesn't start on the table in a known position to an infiltrating troop that has to be deployed during deployment phase.

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I might see the uses for a HMG Dao Fei. High burst shenanigans from unexpected angles seems good IF you have a strategy in mind. I don't discount anything in Infinity despite what others might say. After all. That talk about ninja snipers earlier was a reference to my shenanigans. :D  

On another note. Flash sideways. I've started pairing a Tiger MSR with an Oniwaban. 75pts sure, but that's a landing zone and a mimetic MSR in your backline. The reason i mention that is because anything works if you have a solid plan for it. And as always RNG favours you. 

I honestly think i wouldn't do an infil roll with a HMG though. I'd rather trick my opponent into thinking it's a shorter ranged loadout, then once another piece has punched a hole in the line. The Dao Fei HMG will burst the opponent's backline while they're out of cover from unexpected angles.

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Returning to the discussion, today I played 2 matches using two different list, in one I used the couple Hsien+Dao Fei, in the second I used the other one composed by the Hac Tao+Shnobu, here are the lists :

logo_201.png Hsien and Dao Fei
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png10  
logo_9.pngHSIEN HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 61)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_38.pngYÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_38.pngYÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
logo_44.pngRAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
logo_55.pngXI ZHUANG Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower, MadTraps / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
logo_7.pngDÀOFĚI Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) MULTI Rifle / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 59)
logo_17.pngHÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png1  orden_irregular.png2  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_12.pngNINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_13.pngSHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
logo_13.pngSHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

logo_201.png Hac + Shino
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  
logo_40.pngSHINOBU Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0.5 | 47)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
logo_1.pngZHANSHI Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 19)
logo_17.pngHÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
logo_44.pngRAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_38.pngYÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_38.pngYÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_12.pngNINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png6  orden_impetuosa.png4
logo_8.pngHAC TAO (Executive Order) HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 69)
logo_22.pngCELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

I won both matches, my friend played Nomads/Corregidor but the first list is the one that convinced me more, I'm in love with the Dao-Fei and the new model is amazing ( just bought XD), but, despite my preference, I've to admit that in the second match the Hac Tao did a great performance. I played only 6 matches with YJ but now I think I'm getting the hang of this, the main problem with this army is always the same, too many cool options.

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On 7/28/2017 at 3:36 AM, Manfred_VR said:

My last creation includes both :

logo_201.png Hac + Dao
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  
logo_7.pngDÀOFĚI Lieutenant Spitfire / Pistol, Shock CCW. (1.5 | 55)
logo_19.pngCHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
logo_12.pngNINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_35.pngTOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
logo_38.pngYÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
logo_44.pngRAIDEN (Minelayer, X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 21)
logo_11.pngGŬILÁNG (Minelayer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 26)
logo_21.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
logo_21.pngKEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png6  orden_irregular.png2  orden_impetuosa.png6
logo_22.pngCELESTIAL GUARD (Kuang Shi Control Device) Combi Rifle + Light Smoke Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 13)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_23.pngKUANG SHI Chain Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_13.pngSHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
logo_13.pngSHAOLIN Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 5)
logo_8.pngHAC TAO (Executive Order) HMG, Nanopulser / Pistol, DA CCW. (2 | 69)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

That looks oddly familiar

 

 

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Tried hactao HRL + total reaction HMG...one was thinking, well, this one will be brutal ARO combinations since they were one above the other, and could always fire both...Fenix spend 2 orders and killed both. Well, good to know how they perform,lol

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8 minutes ago, Orpheus80 said:

Tried hactao HRL + total reaction HMG...one was thinking, well, this one will be brutal ARO combinations since they were one above the other, and could always fire both...Fenix spend 2 orders and killed both. Well, good to know how they perform,lol

I also want my Hac Taos to have a HRL. :(

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Missle launcher, sry...tbh HRL is way worse in ARO than missle launcher is.

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On 05/08/2017 at 10:44 AM, PsychoticStorm said:

Infiltration skill does not need to be always used to bring the unit as close to the enemy as possible even if it allows the HMG Daofei to be placed on a building a few inches outside the ZOC that dominates the battlefield or close enouph to kill that enemy sniper unit it is well used, of course you could set Daofei on one board edge at the middle and just pump orders on it to walk to the enemy deployment zone and start killing at preferable range.

Thats why things like Order Sergeant TO infiltrating MSR (or Malignos) can do wonders (as much as you usually dont want to be closer to enemy, some nice sniper nests can usually be found just few inches out of your DZ). 

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On 07/08/2017 at 9:44 AM, Razgriz said:

I might see the uses for a HMG Dao Fei. High burst shenanigans from unexpected angles seems good IF you have a strategy in mind. I don't discount anything in Infinity despite what others might say. After all. That talk about ninja snipers earlier was a reference to my shenanigans. :D  

On another note. Flash sideways. I've started pairing a Tiger MSR with an Oniwaban. 75pts sure, but that's a landing zone and a mimetic MSR in your backline. The reason i mention that is because anything works if you have a solid plan for it. And as always RNG favours you. 

I honestly think i wouldn't do an infil roll with a HMG though. I'd rather trick my opponent into thinking it's a shorter ranged loadout, then once another piece has punched a hole in the line. The Dao Fei HMG will burst the opponent's backline while they're out of cover from unexpected angles.

I don't quite follow the Tiger MSR/Oni combo, would you mind to elaborate?

On topic I say thanks to all the good replies so far! I had another game with the Daofei (Spitfire or Multi I think) and one with the Hac Tao (HMG) by now, with mixed results.

The Daofei once again managed to be a complete failure, managing to miss 2 unopposed shots and later die to 2 combi rifles when he was sent on a Hail Mary mission and had to jump off a roof. Could've really saved on of the shots methinks. At the moment I simply cannot find a good role for this expensive model.

The Hac Tao on the other hand beat down a Onyx Contact Force single-handedly. I think I only spent 5 or 6 orders on other models all game - 3 or 4 to grab Classifieds and 2 to land a Tiger Soldier behind the opposing (2nd) Lt and kill him. He was simply brutal.

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12 minutes ago, BlackCadian said:

I don't quite follow the Tiger MSR/Oni combo, would you mind to elaborate?

Oh, it's quite simple. You look at the table before deployment and pick out a nice sniper firelane near the enemy deployment zone. One that would give you good sight lines of the enemy's half of the table. Bonus if you can plan it so that the opponent would need/ want to use these paths to advance on your half, do objectives or provide them with forward firebases to suppress your units. Now superior infiltrate the oniwaban/ Kitsune near said determined position to clear out any nearby models that will endanger the drop. Once you've cleared a landing zone. Drop the Tiger MSR and start shooting the opponent's backline up with a mimetic, BS 13 MSR. Keep the Oniwaban nearby to help deter any counter attacks against the Tiger. i.e They have to deal with the oniwaban first before they can get a shot on the Tiger.

WARNING: Tactic requires knowledge of how to use Oniwabans effectively.

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On 9/4/2017 at 5:35 AM, Eciu said:

Thats why things like Order Sergeant TO infiltrating MSR (or Malignos) can do wonders (as much as you usually dont want to be closer to enemy, some nice sniper nests can usually be found just few inches out of your DZ). 

Yeah, for the longest time I'd use Infiltration to take sniper nests just out of my DZ.

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