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Mruczyslaw

Another Manned TAG question

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Question about Manned TAGs.

Pilot declares 1st short skill movement and gets into TAG, moves. Enemy ARO is hacking program Total Control. As 2nd part of order player declares movement again, disembarking TAG, so Total Control wont work, as TAG wont have pilot in it.

Question is: Can player in 1 order, with 2 short movement skills embark and disembark from TAG?
Mound/Dismount rule saids something about using profile for entire order and... its not quite clear for us;)

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14 answers to this question

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I think this is another one of those sequences that you should avoid because it creates undefined behaviour.

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Here is the MOV wording:

  • By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order.

 

For me, the last section "the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order." would be the key. You mount, you gain the TAG profile. You dismount, you remain the TAG profile until the order is done. So the opponent would be able to use Total Control ARO unopposed. If they win, you are locked in your TAG, if they fail your pilot would be dismounted again. 

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Yeah, but I embark TAG at the start of order, then with 2nd short skill i disembark. Problem is if this action is legal. (double change of profile in 1 order)

When Opponent hacks You with Total Control and You disembark from TAG he just fails, as Pilot/Operator isnt in his machine at the resolution step (thats when he rolls the dices and states of model are changed). Thats no brainer. 

Weve got problem with mounting and dismounting in 1 order with 2 movement short skills. 

This 'new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order' is confusing. (another discussion from another topic with sphinx moving 6', then dismounting his remote and using its profile entire order, making 6' move illegal? wut?)

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First MOV short skill - Pilot Becomes a TAG

ARO happens. 

Second MOV dismount.

 

This becomes an order of operation issue. Since you are a valid target of the hacking attack that draws the ARO, the ARO is valid. The second short skill wouldn't override the validity of the ARO

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18 minutes ago, ItsUncertainWho said:

First MOV short skill - Pilot Becomes a TAG

ARO happens. 

Second MOV dismount.

 

This becomes an order of operation issue. Since you are a valid target of the hacking attack that draws the ARO, the ARO is valid. The second short skill wouldn't override the validity of the ARO

That's not how ARO's against camo markers work, is it? If a camo marker moves up, someone declares discover and then the camo marker reveals themselves, that discover is now forfeit because it's no longer a marker and no longer able to be discovered. Why is this different if a Mounted TAG becomes ineligible because the pilot climbs out with second short skill move?

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Yes, the ARO is valid.

YET!

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Total_Control - If the target is a Manned TAG, its Pilot/Operator must be inside it

After ARO we disembark TAG, so the Pilot isnt in TAG. TAG is empty.

THEN we go to resolution step. Hacker might make normal roll, but it isnt important. Program wont work, because Pilot/Operator isnt inside TAG

 

So - for entering TAG in 1st short skill and them disembarking it in 2nd short skill - no problems here?

 

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1 minute ago, Keyrott said:

That's not how ARO's against camo markers work, is it? If a camo marker moves up, someone declares discover and then the camo marker reveals themselves, that discover is now forfeit because it's no longer a marker and no longer able to be discovered. Why is this different if a Mounted TAG becomes ineligible because the pilot climbs out with second short skill move?

Yes, but in that case, the Discover was canceled, voided maybe the better word, by the Camo marker revealing itself. The discover ARO still happens, it just doesn't matter. 

Since the Pilot is considered a TAG due to the mount in the first short skill, the ARO is valid. The second short skill dismount would make the model a Pilot, no longer a TAG, but the ARO should still be valid. The dismount and resolution of the ARO should be simultaneous. It would be like the driver of a car hoping out then locking the doors with the fob before the passenger gets his door open. 

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1 hour ago, Mruczyslaw said:

Yes, the ARO is valid.

YET!

http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Total_Control - If the target is a Manned TAG, its Pilot/Operator must be inside it

After ARO we disembark TAG, so the Pilot isnt in TAG. TAG is empty.

THEN we go to resolution step. Hacker might make normal roll, but it isnt important. Program wont work, because Pilot/Operator isnt inside TAG

 

So - for entering TAG in 1st short skill and them disembarking it in 2nd short skill - no problems here?

 

When total control is declared it is a valid ARO as the requirements are met when you declare it against the mounted tag. Similarly if you move from LoF to total cover I can still ARO shoot even though at the end of the order the requirement for LoF would not be met.

Once the effects step rolls around, assuming the hacker succeeded, you would have a possessed tag and a loose pilot both. I don't see anything in the effects of total control or possession saying the pilot needs to be onboard, so it seems like this would work. 

Though really based on the wording of mount/dismount I am inclined to think it is only allowed at the start of your first short skill as it is required to apply for the full order. 

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2 hours ago, Mruczyslaw said:

Question about Manned TAGs.

Pilot declares 1st short skill movement and gets into TAG, moves. Enemy ARO is hacking program Total Control. As 2nd part of order player declares movement again, disembarking TAG, so Total Control wont work, as TAG wont have pilot in it.

Question is: Can player in 1 order, with 2 short movement skills embark and disembark from TAG?
Mound/Dismount rule saids something about using profile for entire order and... its not quite clear for us;)

In order for the game to actually function, despite it not being prohibited, you can't declare mount/dismount as a second short skill, the game literally breaks at that point, so don't do it.

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12 minutes ago, ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, but in that case, the Discover was canceled, voided maybe the better word, by the Camo marker revealing itself. The discover ARO still happens, it just doesn't matter. 

Since the Pilot is considered a TAG due to the mount in the first short skill, the ARO is valid. The second short skill dismount would make the model a Pilot, no longer a TAG, but the ARO should still be valid. The dismount and resolution of the ARO should be simultaneous. It would be like the driver of a car hoping out then locking the doors with the fob before the passenger gets his door open. 

It's like Schrödinger's TAG Pilot. He's simultaneously mounted and dismounted XD

I still don't really see why the ARO continues to be valid when the conditions are no longer met at the conclusion of the second short skill. If the pilot is required to be mounted for Total Control to be used, and that pilot is NOT mounted when the rolls are made, i.e. at the stage after declaration of short skills, then I can't see how it's still a valid hacking attack.

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1 hour ago, Cartographer said:

In order for the game to actually function, despite it not being prohibited, you can't declare mount/dismount as a second short skill, the game literally breaks at that point, so don't do it.

We really need good FAQ about mount/dismount rule. It generates too many questions. Not only with TAG pilots, but also with bikers. 

Its as old as N3, but in N3 nobody cared about pilots;) This changed in TAGLINE, when pilots joined the game;D (well done CB btw! they are really cool and usefull now! Love them:D)

BUT
We discovered that we actualy dont know how they work:D 

As many of You say - game breaks often when You try something weird with them. 

(And embark --> disembark wasnt even malicious power gamer play;D It just happened, as Oyoroi pilot decided, she would rather cut alien hacker in half personaly, than waste time for reset:D Suddenly we started long discussion if it was possible, legal, what was unintended tbh:D We decided finaly we dont have time for this, hacker failed his roll and Oyoroi burned him with heavy flamer without disembarking;D)

 

ALSO whats funny - with Remote Presence TAGs and their remotes, there is no problem. Game doesnt crush, brake or anything. Everything works.

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If you're going to claim that everything works perfectly fine and nothing breaks for the remote presence TAGs and their remote pilots, but everything breaks and nothing works for manned TAGs and pilots, I think it's necessary to assume that there's a self inflicted problem.  :confident:

 

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12 hours ago, solkan said:

If you're going to claim that everything works perfectly fine and nothing breaks for the remote presence TAGs and their remote pilots, but everything breaks and nothing works for manned TAGs and pilots, I think it's necessary to assume that there's a self inflicted problem.  :confident:

 

I think that was irony on his part ;)

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