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grEEn!

Some questions about CC

Question

Someone please dispel my doubts about CC.

Is unconscious units in btb with enemy still counts as engaged?

Can doctor or enginer heal those units if they only btb with them but not enemy?

Is +1B for friendly models works both in active and reactive turn?

Is +1B for MA l4 works only in active turn?

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19 answers to this question

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1) Yes.  The rules state that you can end Engaged status with a Null/Immobilised trooper.  Can, optional.  You can choose to remain Engaged with a Null trooper.

2) No. If the Doctor/Engineer is in base-to-base with a model that is Engaged with an enemy, they can now only use skills allowed in CC.

3) The rule does not state that is it active-turn only, so it can be used at any time.

4) I am not used to MA4, but I cannot see why it would not be usable in all turns.  Nothing about it specifies that is behaves any different from other levels of Martial Arts.

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1 hour ago, grEEn! said:

Someone please dispel my doubts about CC.

  1. Is unconscious units in btb with enemy still counts as engaged?
  2. Can doctor or enginer heal those units if they only btb with them but not enemy?
  3. Is +1B for friendly models works both in active and reactive turn?
  4. Is +1B for MA l4 works only in active turn?
  1. Yes. Unconscious models are still enemies and being in Base to Base with an enemy is the defining trait of being Engaged.
  2. Yes. Doctor/Engineer have no limitations against healing models that are Engaged as far as I've been able to find. It's slightly counter-intuitive, though.
  3. Yes. This bonus works for each ally in BTB with target " and is not activated either by an Order or an ARO " (underline emphasis added)
  4. No, it functions in reactive as well. The B = 1 rule specifically states for CC that certain abilities and skills can increase this burst and I can't find anything in Martial Arts that suggests this allowance is removed for level 4 - of course level 5 functions differently and in a very special way.
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Thanks. One more question.

Is change facing a valid ARO in engaged state? I can't find anything against it but it feels odd.

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6 minutes ago, grEEn! said:

Thanks. One more question.

Is change facing a valid ARO in engaged state? I can't find anything against it but it feels odd.

It is not.

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But units with sixth sense still able to answer fire outside of CC even being engaged, right?

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2 minutes ago, grEEn! said:

But units with sixth sense still able to answer fire outside of CC even being engaged, right?

Yes, because Sixth Sense allows you to ARO with a dodge, and dodge is a legal skill in the engaged state.  You do, however, have to be directly targeted by an attack to trigger that effect.

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5 hours ago, Mahtamori said:

Yes. Doctor/Engineer have no limitations against healing models that are Engaged as far as I've been able to find. It's slightly counter-intuitive, though.

The basic CC rules explicitly state Doctor and Engineer as examples of skills you cannot use.  Page 41 of the core rulebook (top-right).

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1 minute ago, Elric of Grans said:

The basic CC rules explicitly state Doctor and Engineer as examples of skills you cannot use.  Page 41 of the core rulebook (top-right).

Correct, but the question was if you could heal an engaged model with an unengaged doc/engi, which seems legit. 

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Ah, I misread that rule: "in base to base with an enemy engaged in close combat."  I had read it as any model in the Engaged state.  My apologies!

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9 hours ago, grEEn! said:

But units with sixth sense still able to answer fire outside of CC even being engaged, right?

 

@grEEn! note that you are allowed to Dodge (as @ToadChild points out) in this case but can't shoot back. You might have missed that Engaged limits the possible Short Skills you can declare to CC Attack, Coup de Grace, Dodge and Reset:

Effect

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Minor clarification on Point #3:

You only get +1B for allies not activated by an order or ARO. But in the Reactive Turn, if your enemy activates while you are in B2B contact, you get an ARO regardless of whether you were the target of the Active trooper's CC Attack or not.

So if your Fusilier finds himself in CC with two Alguacils and spends an Order to make a CC Attack against one of them, this provokes an ARO for both Alguacils. Because both get an ARO, neither gets +1B. But both Alguacils may declare CC Attack as their ARO; the Alguacil targeted by the Fusilier will roll FtF against the Fusilier, but the other Alguacil's CC Attack will be made as a Normal Roll.

Similarly, in the Alguacils' Active Turn, if the Nomad player elected to make a CC Attack with both Alguacils as a Coordinated Order, then the +1B would also NOT apply, as both are activated. This Coordinated Order would provoke an ARO from the Fusilier, but because it's a Coordinated Order, he could only declare an ARO against one of the Alguacils (against which he'd roll FtF) and the other would make his CC Attack as a Normal Roll. This is slightly better odds of knocking out/killing the Fusilier because one of the rolls is unopposed (vice just activating one of the Alguacils with a Regular Order and taking the +1B, as both dice thrown by the single activated Alguacil would be FtF against the Fusilier). So it's "stronger" to do the attack as a Coordinated Order, but it uses a precious Command Token. Against combat monsters like Ninjas and the like, however, it's probably your best shot.

Anyway, the important point is that because being in close combat provokes AROs from everyone in base contact with you, the +1B for "unactivated allies" really only applies in the Active Turn.

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1 minute ago, Munin said:

Minor clarification on Point #3:

You only get +1B for allies not activated by an order or ARO. But in the Reactive Turn, if your enemy activates while you are in B2B contact, you get an ARO regardless of whether you were the target of the Active trooper's CC Attack or not.

So if your Fusilier finds himself in CC with two Alguacils and spends an Order to make a CC Attack against one of them, this provokes an ARO for both Alguacils. Because both get an ARO, neither gets +1B. But both Alguacils may declare CC Attack as their ARO; the Alguacil targeted by the Fusilier will roll FtF against the Fusilier, but the other Alguacil's CC Attack will be made as a Normal Roll.

Similarly, in the Alguacils' Active Turn, if the Nomad player elected to make a CC Attack with both Alguacils as a Coordinated Order, then the +1B would also NOT apply, as both are activated. This Coordinated Order would provoke an ARO from the Fusilier, but because it's a Coordinated Order, he could only declare an ARO against one of the Alguacils (against which he'd roll FtF) and the other would make his CC Attack as a Normal Roll. This is slightly better odds of knocking out/killing the Fusilier because one of the rolls is unopposed (vice just activating one of the Alguacils with a Regular Order and taking the +1B, as both dice thrown by the single activated Alguacil would be FtF against the Fusilier). So it's "stronger" to do the attack as a Coordinated Order, but it uses a precious Command Token. Against combat monsters like Ninjas and the like, however, it's probably your best shot.

Anyway, the important point is that because being in close combat provokes AROs from everyone in base contact with you, the +1B for "unactivated allies" really only applies in the Active Turn.

The reactive player could choose to not activate one of the Alguacils and instead make a B2 CC ARO with only one of them.

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@ToadChild is correct - sure, you could choose to for-go one of your AROs to get +1B. But under most circumstances the unopposed roll will be better for you. I'd have to run the math for an opponent with MA5, but even then I think opposing with both comes out better for you statistically.

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Yeah, that was intended solely as a mechanical observation, not a tactical suggestion.

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5 minutes ago, Munin said:

But under most circumstances the unopposed roll will be better for you.

Yes, which is why you could for-go the alguacil that is attacked by a CC brute, and have the unoppsed alguacile hit at +1B.

If the attacker is not a CC brute, then not only i'm not sure if you should go +1B opposed, or have 1 opposed and 1 unopposed; but mostly i'm wondering why the heck he is spending a Regular Order on a CC inept model stuck into an engagement with two equaly CC-inept enemy.

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Yeah, but a savvy opponent is going to declare Idle with his first short skill, forcing you to declare AROs - including activated models, resulting Burst values, and weapon(s) being used - before he declares CC Attack to keep you from doing this very thing.

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Idle isn't on the list of skills you can use while engaged, so I'm not sure you can declare it.

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9 minutes ago, Munin said:

Yeah, but a savvy opponent is going to declare Idle with his first short skill, forcing you to declare AROs - including activated models, resulting Burst values, and weapon(s) being used - before he declares CC Attack to keep you from doing this very thing.

Idle is not a valid declaration when engaged. You must attack first, and your opponent will respond.

Same as how it was in N2 when once engaged, CC was an Entire Order skill meaning you CC and the ARO will react after you.

Both in N2 and N3, you can Move+CC (if you didn't start in cc) in which case the active model will declare after the reactive model.

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Huh, I thought Idle was always a valid skill declaration, but it appears you are correct - no Idling in CC. That's good to know, and makes CC one of the few parts of the game where the Reactive player has an advantage.

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