Counting_Kittens

Hassassins vs warbands

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Getting back into Hassassins, I'm wondering what kind of tools and tactics they have for dealing with the cheap, smoke-throwing melee centric warband models that my meta seems to love (Galwegians, Morlocks, more Galwegians). My usual methods are MSV 2 and mines everywhere but Hassassins are kind of lacking in both of those things. How do you guys deal with the danged things?

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I wouldn't say that Hassassins are lacking in the mines department thanks to Muyibs and maybe Farzans, but they probably won't solve massed WB. Then again, our mine carriers aren't exactly more expensive than what other factions get (majority of them anyway), it's that they are still will be trading their orders and equipment with very cheap models some factions can spam (hello, AVA: Total Galwegians).

But to be fair, I'm curious what we can do too. Mines are there, but we can't directly counter smoke, and we aren't punching out cheap dedicated CC troopers right in it... So I second this question.

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Hassassins have a huge amount of mines available (I sometimes run 2-3 Farzan Minelayers, and often a Muyib with mines in Haris/Core). However I don't know if that's the best course of action due to order cost. 

Muttawiah and Daylami are good, Mutts can isolate through smoke and Daylami can just be everywhere to shoot. Apart from that outshooting them in active turn is an option, take a ML or HRL and blast away. I've also used Smart Missiles against Caledonians successfully, as that can heavily limit the smoke AROs available for them. Are your table designs balanced or too open or too crowded? 

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Daboarders tables in the meta-table and Warband thread give a good idea of fairly standard tables for the meta being discussed.

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Oh, total reaction bot is always a great warband killer/deterrent unless your opponent know how to play warbands, then sorry bud.

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How about going after your opponent's Regular Order pool? Or his Lt? Hassassins seem to be well-prepared for that kind of action, and once you deprive your opponent of Regular Orders, his Irregular warbands become suddenly much less effective.

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I think the issue with that is if you go second and have a horde of warbands coming at your glass cannons, going after the regular order pool isn't super effective. I also think this can an issue for the HB. If there is a real mass of enemy warbands, an infiltrating Daylami with a shotgun could ideally trade his life for one or two.

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A well-placed Lasiq or Lasiq sniper will murder most warbands, especially those with Dogged.

Remember that Muttawi'ahs have pistols. In some cases, it's better to use them than your chain rifle, either to increase your chances of survival or for the possibility of hitting twice.

A Farzan minelayer would at least bleed some orders from them.

Asawiras are quite effective, or Ayyar backed up by a Doctor, in that they can afford not to dodge the chain rifle, but shoot back instead (especially good in the Ayyar's case due to Viral pistols). If they lose a wound, it's not the end of the world.

Though not ideal, remember that a Fiday has surprise attack, a knife (for shock damage), and stealth, so if he starts in marker state and moves into close combat, you can -not- shot him with a chain rifle. He could easily kill Morlocks, but can't face Galwegians of course. Edit: of course to go after warbands with your Fiday isn't a good trade at all, I'm just saying it could work in a pinch.


I'd try to bait the warbands. Set a good ARO up with shock or viral, and reveal a Farzan or something in the middle of the table, to force the warbands to move toward that model, and into your AROs. That's the thing with Extremely Impetuous, a skilled opponent can dictate your movement.

 

 

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There's no easy answer here, its just going to be a brawl between their warbands and yours.

4 mutts, 2 panzerfaust daylami, and a warcor should be able to hold the line, thats only 37 pts out of your list.

A single lasiq sniper will kill most things she hits with viral so position her to force face to face smokes.

A linked ghulam sniper is cheap and easy.

You can take up to 3 minelayer farzans if your really having trouble holding them back, that's quite a bit of board control without spending extra orders. You can even do a coordinated mine drop to get more coverage.

If your looking to hunt warband models the ayyar with shock marksman rifle can wander around and try and pick off models out of chain rifle range.

An asawira can tank multiple chain rifle hits and regenerate back up if knocked unconscious. A decent way to take out entrenched warbands if your opponent is hiding them inside buildings and such.

We also have rediculously good doctors, trades are fine as you can get your models back up way easier than they can.

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On 11.08.2017 at 10:20 PM, Natsymir said:

if he starts in marker state and moves into close combat, you can -not- shot him with a chain rifle

Rules on Impersonation tell us the following (final bullet of Cancellation list):

"The cancellation of Impersonation-1 state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Impersonated trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement."

Thanks to Wartrader for pointing that out. I've had a brainfart myself, missing that point, so I had to ask. Eh, time for me to go to bed it seems.

So, I guess that you can, in fact, be shot in the face under this scenario unless you approach your opponent from outside LoF.

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2 hours ago, Barrogh said:

Rules on Impersonation tell us the following (final bullet of Cancellation list):

"The cancellation of Impersonation-1 state is applied to the whole declared Order. So, if a Impersonated trooper declares a Move + BS Attack Order, he will be considered discovered all along his Movement, even if the BS Attack would be performed at the end of that Movement."

Thanks to Wartrader for pointing that out. I've had a brainfart myself, missing that point, so I had to ask. Eh, time for me to go to bed it seems.

So, I guess that you can, in fact, be shot in the face under this scenario unless you approach your opponent from outside LoF.

I knew that. But the Hassassin Fiday also has Stealth, and the rules for Stealth says the following:

" If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state. "

So it was a mistake on my part to drag marker state into it, apparently it works just as well if you're visible to the enemy at the start of the order.

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2 hours ago, Natsymir said:

I knew that. But the Hassassin Fiday also has Stealth, and the rules for Stealth says the following:

" If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state. "

So it was a mistake on my part to drag marker state into it, apparently it works just as well if you're visible to the enemy at the start of the order.

....that is really good to know.

 

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10 hours ago, Natsymir said:

I knew that. But the Hassassin Fiday also has Stealth, and the rules for Stealth says the following:

" If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state. "

So it was a mistake on my part to drag marker state into it, apparently it works just as well if you're visible to the enemy at the start of the order.

Interesting. I sorta assumed that it works when the enemy doesn't have LoF to you, but reading it now, it seems like you're right. Weird interaction.

Rules of Engagement folks will freaking shoot me one day...

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So, apparently there is an opinion that both 3rd and 4th bullets in Stealth rule description are extension of 2nd bullet and cover the situation when you are in opponent's ZoC, but out of LoF. It makes sense although IMO it can be argued both ways if your group plays by RAW. So I guess you should come to an agreement with your opponent beforehand if you want to avoid possible arguments.

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So, apparently there is an opinion that both 3rd and 4th bullets in Stealth rule description are extension of 2nd bullet and cover the situation when you are in opponent's ZoC, but out of LoF. It makes sense although IMO it can be argued both ways if your group plays by RAW. So I guess you should come to an agreement with your opponent beforehand if you want to avoid possible arguments.

Read the example in the Camo section on page 71 of the Rule Book:

"They may, however, choose to react with an Attack against the SAS. The Fusilier, now in base to base contact with the SAS, may react by declaring a BS Attack, a CC Attack, or Dodge, for example"

This means that you can't use Stealth to sneak up on someone from within their LOF.

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6 minutes ago, inane.imp said:

Read the example in the Camo section on page 71 of the Rule Book:

"They may, however, choose to react with an Attack against the SAS. The Fusilier, now in base to base contact with the SAS, may react by declaring a BS Attack, a CC Attack, or Dodge, for example"

This means that you can't use Stealth to sneak up on someone from within their LOF.

Probably would not stop someone from being super technical ("Example doesn't show if he declares his Optional skill Stealth"), but I guess is good enough to show what was the intention.

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You cannot use Stealth to sneak up on someone from within their LoF, no. Stealth is explicitly used to deny ZoC AROs, not LoF AROs. Otherwise, you'd never be able to shoot at a CH: Camo trooper moving in your LoF whether he was in a marker state or not (as Camo automatically grants Stealth). That is obviously not the case.

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2 hours ago, Munin said:

Otherwise, you'd never be able to shoot at a CH: Camo trooper moving in your LoF whether he was in a marker state

Only if he ends his movement in B2B since that's the case covered by that 4th clause :P

But oh well, this is going nowhere. I'm pretty sure we can agree that this is not how Stealth should work and be done with this. I admit it was me who kicked up the fuss since it's likely for me to face a Ninja-train JSA player here and I was not sure how to address that list. Especially if denying shots like that was a legal claim. But anyway, JSA is the issue for another thread.

Now, back to warbands, I guess :)

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My usually is a Fiday laying a bunch of mines in different areas, Farzan Minelayers (I always have one of these guys) and a Ayyar SMR, -6 from surprise shot to that smoke throw is going to be tough if you can get range.

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