Sturladur

Friendly discussion: Picking Hassassin vs Vanilla

46 posts in this topic

Hey all!

I have played Vanilla for about 1 year.

I have had rather bad results with them overall. Previously I played Corregidor and had great success, placing at 2 and 3rd place out of 8 man i  tournies vs placing 6-8 with haqq.

I am currently conflicted and at a crossroads (very dramatic!).

I have some C.army and plenty of nomads and haqq. And originally the plan was to switch to Bakunin. But i am having doubts about them as a faction and with the upcoming starter and muyibs I have been considering going for Hassassin instead since they always intrigued me but I just stuck around in vanilla for bikes, maggy and tarik.

So with the introduction and rant over what makes you pick hassassin instead of vanilla?

And would you reccomend me to go for hassassin instead of c.army or bakunin taking into consideration that I have had most success with corregidor?

The rule of cool does not work for me since I love them all haha! And what is pulling me the most in each direction is the Ayyar, Anathematic and Taskmaster.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the subject and hope this will make for a nice mature and informative discussion :D!

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16 minutes ago, Sturladur said:

what makes you pick hassassin instead of vanilla?

There is only one correct answer here and it's the possibility of having a Fireteam. The tradeoff of course being that you can't pick many of the good solo models. If you like to play Haqq, but want fireteams, pick HB. Ayyar is very usable model in almost any list, so if that's what you like, you can field it very effectively. 

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I agree with @orthas

The only advantage you will have here is the fireteam rules. Outside of that Hassassins play similar to vanilla in that your working with asymetrical trading, and week overal survivability. The Asawira is an amazing gunfighter, and the Ayyar is a great hunter but your armor is going to cap at 3 so it requires a lot of finesse. Haqqislam is a tough faction to learn and do well with. they require a very different way of playing compared to nomads, Pano, and Yu Jing who for better or worse can really brute force their way into something. 

I personally picked Hassassins because I had the models. I started in Vanilla, and built my collection until I could run both Sectorials and gravitated towards Hassassin due to their underhanded and sneaky method of play. I love Farzans and Fidays, and was able to take more of both.

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29 minutes ago, Orthas said:

There is only one correct answer here and it's the possibility of having a Fireteam.

And different AVA. Plus there are some sectorials that get stuff respective vanilla don't get, but those are usually special cases.

Anyway. There are other reasons, but they are hardly relevant to a vet and/or competitive player like OP tbh.

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Alright so basically just fireteams and Muyib goodness everywhere haha. 

What do you usually holo the ayyar as finding it a little bit difficult to think of anything clever and surprising with him other than maybe fake a barid LT haha :D

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I have a very hard time making Vanilla lists, as there are so many good solo units that I create a mess that doesn't have any synergy. Not so with HB! Using a link of Ghulams+a Barid or two gives me a great order battery for any of the killers you want to run, be it an Ayyer, Ragiks, or Fidays for days. Then in my second order group I usually have a few remotes (the Rafiq is a beast, and you usually have plenty of SWC for a TR bot) and an Engi to keep them on their little bird feet. Then you can junk of up board with Ghazi and as many Panzerfaust Daylami as points and SWC allow. It's a ton of fun, as it forces the opponent to get into a bunch of tough trades and it makes them make some really hard decisions on their turn, while you go for what targets you can on yours. We still have a ton of great specialists, and the only thing the sectorial really lacks is MSV2, but you have a lot of mines and templates to deal with that as well.

The sectorial is a ton of fun, and I don't feel like they miss out on a ton of stuff, as they still have great options

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1 hour ago, Sturladur said:

What do you usually holo the ayyar as finding it a little bit difficult to think of anything clever and surprising with him other than maybe fake a barid LT haha :D

3 Ayyars. 

I mean, you could do something like 3 daylami (not worth your opponent's time engaging) or an Lt. fakeout but at best the ruse lasts to the start of your active turn when you place a Holoecho marker. 

IMO the real strength of Holo2 is surprise shot combined with the ability to move-move unmolested if your opponent delays, and having those two fake bodies to donate mines and perimeter weapons. 

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Well, I mean, why not both, especially if you are going second? You can prepare another courtesy list just in case this happens. 

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15 hours ago, Barrogh said:

Well, I mean, why not both, especially if you are going second? You can prepare another courtesy list just in case this happens. 

For list purposes they are 2 seperate armies, in an ITS event it would be like swapping between morats and steel phalanx

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2 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

For list purposes they are 2 seperate armies, in an ITS event it would be like swapping between morats and steel phalanx

A big and unexpected whoops.

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On 23.08.2017 at 3:02 PM, Sturladur said:

what makes you pick hassassin instead of vanilla?

nothing

Hassasins links fades compared to possibility to use Salladin

addicionaly only good link is Muibs as Lisaqs are hindered to 4 instade of 5 just because , and if you want  a 5 man Ghulam you need to get Leila Sharifa (don't get me wrong she is amazing mini profile but you need to get her in a list and this is a problem )

increased Ava on some of the units do not help as thous units got way less expensive and / or better counter parts in Vanilla

in my book Hassasins are on same level as French sectorial - fun and looks cool but outdated  and require complete redesign to keep up with top dogs or with mid lvl

- yes you may win a turney with them  but this means you are a grate gamer and got luck in dices - when if you would play QK or Vanilla it would be just  enught to be good or lucky not both at same time

you will actualy create better Hassasin list on Vanilla  HQ Q  then on Sectorial - you just loss a link  but income of TO cammo and Salladin is owerwhelming

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23 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

For list purposes they are 2 seperate armies, in an ITS event it would be like swapping between morats and steel phalanx

While it was a nice thought I guess I better not do it since it is illegal haha.

22 minutes ago, Maru said:

in my book Hassasins are on same level as French sectorial - fun and looks cool but outdated  and require complete redesign to keep up with top dogs or with mid lvl

Before HSN3 I would have completely agreed, not so sure now. I guess il have to just test them and see if it works for me haha :)

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Muyib core is where its at. Mines, specialist, deps and grenade launchers. Most people forget you can direct fire the grenade launcher making a burst 2 grenade hitting on 18's in aro ignoring cover save a scary proposition.

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On 8/23/2017 at 4:47 PM, Barrogh said:

And different AVA. Plus there are some sectorials that get stuff respective vanilla don't get, but those are usually special cases.

Increased AVA is hardly an issue in picking Hassassin over Vanilla. Nobody I've heard of is capped in vanilla by Muyib, Ragik or Lasiq AVA. The 2 Fidays (one+Djabel) are plenty enough and benefit much more from Saladin than 3rd Fiday. I've never seen a list with 2 Ayyars. Haqq Heavy lists don't require the 2nd Asawira if they even utilize the first. The only interesting AVA HB have IMO are Farzans for the Minelayer+Infiltration. And that's a very specific thing considering vanilla has the excellent Hunzakuts. 

If Daylami AVA was the other way around, or HB had more Mutt's, then it'd be interesting. HB also has as an extra only Avicenna, which is not even close to being a staple.

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10 hours ago, Maru said:

addicionaly only good link is Muibs as Lisaqs

im amazing im quouting my self ..

i forget about Govads - they are so good yet nobody play them beside HMG profile ..

in my book if i would redesigning a Hassasins i would make them Tooha / or ISS - with possibility of a lot of small links  highly mobile and a warbands

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8 hours ago, Maru said:

i forget about Govads - they are so good yet nobody play them beside HMG profile ..

I can but love the way you're speaking in absolutes...

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57 minutes ago, Errhile said:

I can but love the way you're speaking in absolutes...

only Sith speak in absolutes  ;)  anounced jedi

btt:  so what is your expirience with Govads over Muybs  and are they worth to play over Vanilla list or QK ??

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Govads pack long-range firepower with their Sniper and ML. They are useful as long-range support Haris to back up troops upfield (especially given 3-man Fireteam's Burst boost in ARO).

They can - in a pinch - do the same job a Ghulam team does (similar set of long-ranged basic weapons) on steroids, though lack of a Doc hurts them here. I haven't yet tested them with a HMG, mostly because mine just got painted recently.

Also, while MSV L1 ain't anywhere near MSV L2 in terms of usefulness, they are the best Hassassins have access to in that department. Which was mightily useful a few times, setting the border between "no can do" and "well, in a pinch..." for me. I have happened to hit that 20x20 mission with Limited Visibility all over the table with them, and in such a situation they were literally a godsend: they owned the table.

Now, that's Hassassin-specific application of the Govads. Therefore saying no-one fields a Govad fireteam...

 

As for Govads in Vanilla - I won't be taking a stance. I don't play vanilla, so I lack knowledge on how they compare to other choices there.

Qapu Khalqi - which is my first army and first love in Infinity - is another kettle of fish. Now, mind that comparing QK to HB is comparing apples to oranges.  QK has no MSV L1 Light Infantry, but they have MSV L2 Medium Infantry with a similar weapons loadout (minus the ML, which I like a lot. RL ain't too shabby either). Out of these two, I'd choose the slower but tougher Djanbazans: sitting in the back as a long-ranged support doesn't require much movement, and toughness can save lives. But having a MSV L1 on an unit operating midfield or in the enemy table half, having an edge against al these CH or ODD troops, it wouldn't be half bad either. 

Still, we re making an error here by comparing units in separation from their armies. QK doesn't have much in the way of smoke and Direct Template Weapons, while HB has a plenty of each, so they can support their troops effectively with these...

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so basicly according to you are HB  strong enught to select it compared to Vannila list or Vanila made in a hassasin theme ??

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1 hour ago, Errhile said:

They can - in a pinch - do the same job a Ghulam team does (similar set of long-ranged basic weapons) on steroids, though lack of a Doc hurts them here.

That probably belongs to "HB links" thread, but I feel that this is less of a problem than, well, many other things. If you need that doc, Ghulam can take that position without much problem if you use your Govads as fire support as he won't need to constantly run around to keep up with them, so not being a part of the link is fine, and can occasionally be even safer. He will be more vulnerable though, but those are also specific situations.

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Well, with a defensive fireteam, a separate Doc (usually in person, though via Nasmat is viable too, if not usually the more practical way) tends, in my opinion, to be more advantegeous.

It is an offensive fireteam who are better off bringing their own Doc with them.

This is the lesson I've learned with QK. The reason behind it is Order efficiency, basically. If a fireteam spent X orders pushing forward before taking casualties (which offensively moving fireteams do), you'll have to spend ~X orders on your Doc or Nasmat to get to them and revive the unconscious models - unless the Doc have already spent those orders as a member of that Fireteam.

However, a Doc not being a member of a Fireteam can, actually, use Nasmats. At the same time, if he's deployed next to a defenisve Fireteam, s/he won't need many Orders to revive team members (defensive fireteams usually don't walk around much - reposition and shoot, that's all). Being a member of that team is oflimited benefit then: the Doc can't use Nasmats to be present upfield... and the advantage of having Fireteam bonuses is somewhat disputable.

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Well, you have mentioned snipers and ML so I assumed you won't be pushing with that link. Otherwise yes, that's a massive order expenditure unless you also need to run around with your Nasmat-linked doc for some reason (without losing him in the process), then you can constantly reposition Nasmat closer.

Then again, if the latter is the case, having a link with doctor is what you should probably shoot for in the first place.

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@Errhile I might have asked this before but would you have an exaple list, with comments, of what you run with the backfield Govad Haris? Probably a Muyib core? That'd be around 200 points leaving plenty for other stuff. 

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The Meta-Chemistry podcast had a good episode about Hassassin Bahram that you may want to check out.

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56 minutes ago, Orthas said:

@Errhile I might have asked this before but would you have an exaple list, with comments, of what you run with the backfield Govad Haris? Probably a Muyib core? That'd be around 200 points leaving plenty for other stuff. 

Last time it was a Muyib Core, indeed. If memory serves me, there was also a Ghulam Doc (or there wasn't...?), a Fiday, a Ragik with Spitfire, and a Farzan. 

But save for my "no thinking required" QK list (Core of Janissaries, Haris of Sekban w/HRL, Al'hawwa Hacker and Shihab REM) I basically have no usual list. I compose a new one every time I play, taking whatever I fancy on a given day, or something I haven't used in a while. Unless, of course, I'm unable to think, which is when I bring in the abovementioned QK list. Or a similar HI-centered Corregidor list, depending on which army's turn to be played has come (I alternate between these three on regular basis).

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