doydoy

sakiel too cheap

38 posts in this topic

·         Hi everyone.

I've played my first game as Ariadna against Tohaa today and I am disappointed how overpowered Tohaa is. My game experience is about 15 games of 300pts (yet I diligently read the game rules or mechanics many times). I've seen that "overpowered tohaa" in many forum threads and it has been discussed a lot. While some of those discussions include specific details, therefore useful suggestions against Tohaa, I really get annoyed by hollow comments about the fairness of the game. 

Yet I'm here to argue about "Sakiel" so that Tohaa becomes more balanced and less overpowered. 18pts is too cheap for 2 wounds, triad linking, decent combi-rifle bs weapon, decent stats (12bs) and regular order. People go into arguments about symbiont armor's fire sensitivity but Sakiel has "technically" two wounds. Let's compare it with my Veteran Kazak which costs 37-47pts and it has NWI so that it has almost two wounds. It is shock immune but not viral immune. If it loses 2 wounds, then it is dead. This is not the case with Sakiel. Sakiel is autmotically shock and viral immune against 1 damage. If it loses 2 wounds, then it is not completely dead but it can be recovered by a doctor. As for other 2-3 wound troops of Ariadna (Wulver, Devil Dog), they are not as cheap as Sakiel and they can be impetuous and irregular (instead of just regular).

Symbiont armor has already interesting mechanics where inactive profile may be weaker than the active one but this is not the case with Sakiel. Why not decrease its BS from 12 down to 8 in the inactive profile? Sakiel still gets his bonus. It doesn't go down by 1 damage and it is still up. It instead loses some of its BS power so that it is still a cheap 2 wounds unit with some deficiency. After losing 1 wound, Sakiel will still provide his regular order. Its inactive profile can still be used for objectives (or triad linking) even though his BS has weakened. 

Let's consider an alternative. Its inactive profile preserves 12bs but its mobility reduces from 4-4 to 3-2. In this case, Sakiel has preserved his BS power and can do BS shootings just as before. However, its lower speed may cause problems for completing objectives. For the BS + Move order, 3in movement is only 1in shorter than 4in so that this downgrade is not too extreme. However, for Move + Move order, this downgrade is more problematic and will possibly slow down the triad. If it is linked to a Sniper ARO unit which never moves, then this downgrade may not cause any problems at all.

Do you see the fairness of my suggestions? Of course, there is always the simpler option "lets add 5pts to the cost of Sakiel. 23pts instead of 18pts." Even at 23pts, it wouldn't be as expensive as my 2-3 wound Ariadna troops but it would seem more fair.

P.S: I'm having trouble with cheap Ariadna troops which are irregular and extremely impetuous. My opponent had 6 x 13pts regular troops with eclipse grenades, something my Ariadna cannot match. Regular units with smoke grenades and as cheap as 13pts? No way with Ariadna. 

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I think if you are struggling against Tohaa perhaps we need to look at your lists, how you play your lists, and the missions you are playing. You have very little experience playing this game. This game is not like any others and takes time to get good at. I think you are jumping the gun, as often newer players do, at thinking certain aspects of the game are OP. 

I am happy to assist you in improving your play. 

I am not going to address your particular points as to the changes as I do not think that is the correct route to take. 

The idea that Tohaa are OP is simply not backed up by the evidence in ITS rankings. So again if you want help to improve your game against them I am happy to assist but the idea of changing units because you struggle against them is not the correct method of improving ones play. 

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@doydoy you are correct to say that they are too cheap, at least, in comparison to the other basic choice in Tohaa (Kamael).  Originally, the Sakiel was Impetuous, not Frenzied, so he did have a weakness to compensate for his bargain price.

However, the Sakiel is not a uniquely horrible offender when it comes to cheap "Heavy Infantry".  I would direct your attention to Haramaki in the Japanese Sectorial Army, Unidrons in Onyx Contact Force, Magister Knights in Military Orders, and Chain Rifle/SMG Wu Ming in Imperial Service.  And in your own army, you have the rightly feared and various-flavored Dog-Warriors, who have ruined many a PanO player's defensive line.

In Ariadna, you have many good options to pick apart Tohaa fireteams―perhaps the best-equipped army for this purpose―in the existence of plentiful Camouflage troopers.  As a Tohaa player, the last thing I want to fight (if I haven't taken a heavy Gao-Rael, Nikoul, or Kaauri list) is something like this:

logo_301.png Ariadna
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  orden_irregular.png1  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_19.pngVOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
logo_19.pngVOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
logo_12.pngSCOUT Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_9.pngFOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
logo_9.pngFOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
logo_26.pngCHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
logo_26.pngCHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
logo_3.pngSPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
logo_5.pngTANKHUNTER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
logo_16.pngDOG-WARRIOR 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP CCW. (0 | 27)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  orden_irregular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_22.pngCATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
logo_10.pngHARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_29.png112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
logo_4.pngGRUNT Lieutenant Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_14.pngIRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
logo_14.pngIRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Open in Infinity Army

Ariadna is going to have a bit of trouble adjusting to the new tournament season format with DataTrackers rules, but you still have more than enough tools to gut a Tohaa arsenal.

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i remember my first game with tohaa against ariadna.

i felt like "what is that bitch thing in camo attacking with flame thrower against my sakiels."

my god , how can she be just 20 points.

" that was chasseur. "

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Try looking at this

logo_301.png Ariadna──────────────────────────────────────────────────orden_regular.png5  orden_impetuosa.png1logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)logo_6.pngMINUTEMAN Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 22)logo_26.pngCHASSEUR Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)logo_44.pngMAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) 0.5 SWC | 83 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

 

Every single one of these units cost approximatly 20 points and hard counters every symbiot in my army.

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it's sounding like William Wallace might be a good choice for you, makes all other orders in your force regular/irregular  

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22 hours ago, doydoy said:

P.S: I'm having trouble with cheap Ariadna troops which are irregular and extremely impetuous. My opponent had 6 x 13pts regular troops with eclipse grenades, something my Ariadna cannot match. Regular units with smoke grenades and as cheap as 13pts? No way with Ariadna.

I'm guessing you are talking about the Makaul, which the cheapest model is 13pts, but it is regular/extreme impetuous.

You will usually all ways see these models/troopers in a link team to stop the extreme impetuous order from taking affect.

I would assume that you are taking bikes? just remember that one part of the extreme impetuous order must be a move action, whether that be the first part 8'' or the second part of the movement stat 4''

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Note that Ariadna can take a Caledonian volunteer and a Galwegian, giving you a regular order with chain rifle and lsg, plus a Dogged CC killer with smoke and another chain rifle, with three total orders (Impetuous, irregular, regular). 

This is all for 1 point less than the Makaul. 

I mean, yes Sakiels are too cheap, but Ariadna have their own power units in return. 

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23 hours ago, Heather said:

I would assume that you are taking bikes? just remember that one part of the extreme impetuous order must be a move action, whether that be the first part 8'' or the second part of the movement stat 4''

This is not how movement works. If you only move once in a order it is always the first move value, regardless of if you do it as the first or second part. The 4" only kicks in if its a move-move

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Attributes

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On 9/18/2017 at 0:21 AM, Wombat85 said:

Try looking at this

logo_301.png Ariadna──────────────────────────────────────────────────orden_regular.png5  orden_impetuosa.png1logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)logo_6.pngMINUTEMAN Rifle, 2 Light Flamethrowers / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 22)logo_26.pngCHASSEUR Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)logo_44.pngMAVERICK Submachine Gun, Light Rocket Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 22) 0.5 SWC | 83 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

 

Every single one of these units cost approximatly 20 points and hard counters every symbiot in my army.

They only have a special effect on fully healthy Neema, Ectros, Gorgos (also on 2W) and Rasail. Otherwise it's no different from normal.

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3 hours ago, Nemo No Name said:

They only have a special effect on fully healthy Neema, Ectros, Gorgos (also on 2W) and Rasail. Otherwise it's no different from normal.

Except that after its burnt off your rolling on armor 0 to not burn to death, which is worse than any other line trooper. The op stated there was nothing that ariadna had that competed as sakiles were op, everything I listed is around the same points and melts tohaa. At best the tohaa can try and trade with an unoppsed template, at worst he doges on ph 11, neither of which are appealing.

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14 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

Except that after its burnt off your rolling on armor 0 to not burn to death, which is worse than any other line trooper. The op stated there was nothing that ariadna had that competed as sakiles were op, everything I listed is around the same points and melts tohaa. At best the tohaa can try and trade with an unoppsed template, at worst he doges on ph 11, neither of which are appealing.

Where do you get ARM 0? You finish all rolls with Symbiont Armour active. Only difference is that you must roll for Fire first and lose all Symbiont Wounds if you fail any of those rolls. Which, again, affects only the 4 units I listed.

As for comparison, compare your poor, weak Sakiel to a Deva and then try to defend.

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3 hours ago, Nemo No Name said:

As for comparison, compare your poor, weak Sakiel to a Deva and then try to defend.

- Deva isn't Frenzy (Frenzy makes Sakiel cheap).
- Sakiel doesn't have WILL 15 (WILL 15 makes Deva expensive).

Also, one would say that you've been in this game long enought to understand that cross-faction comparitions don't work well. It is known that there are skills and synergies that seem costed too cheap, and that is done on purpose to differentiate factions and give them their "flavour".
Tohaa's theme is Resiliency/Durability, and that is why half of the faction carries Symbiont Armour, which gives them an extra wound (and has several asociated synergies) for little cost. At the same time, there is no Achilles/Swiss Guard/Kryza Borac/whatever in Tohaa, to balance Symbiont Armour.

I agree that some units seem to be cheaper than they should (Sukeul, Kawaii Sentinels, CoC Kaeltar), but if Tohaa were as broken and OP as some people paint them we would be winning Tournaments right and left.

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On 17/09/2017 at 8:41 PM, Perseus said:

i remember my first game with tohaa against ariadna.

i felt like "what is that bitch thing in camo attacking with flame thrower against my sakiels."

my god , how can she be just 20 points.

" that was chasseur. "

Yippee ki-yay artichoke

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12 minutes ago, Abrilete said:

- Deva isn't Frenzy (Frenzy makes Sakiel cheap).
- Sakiel doesn't have WILL 15 (WILL 15 makes Deva expensive).

Also, one would say that you've been in this game long enought to understand that cross-faction comparitions don't work well. It is known that there are skills and synergies that seem costed too cheap, and that is done on purpose to differentiate factions and give them their "flavour".
Tohaa's theme is Resiliency/Durability, and that is why half of the faction carries Symbiont Armour, which gives them an extra wound (and has several asociated synergies) for little cost. At the same time, there is no Achilles/Swiss Guard/Kryza Borac/whatever in Tohaa, to balance Symbiont Armour.

I agree that some units seem to be cheaper than they should (Sukeul, Kawaii Sentinels, CoC Kaeltar), but if Tohaa were as broken and OP as some people paint them we would be winning Tournaments right and left.

While you are correct that Tohaa are not quite as broken/OP as some say, that does not mean that Tohaa are in a good place. All the bonuses you can stack on Tohaa are nightmare for newer players, right now even worse than even what Steel Phalanx feels to new players - and there isn't an easy answer to give to new players how to deal with them.

And it's true that in some units Symbiont Armour is perfectly fine. Neema, Ectros, Kotail for example. But in the rest it's laughable how cheap it is. In my opinion, Sakiels, Sukeuls and GeoRaels are worst offenders re: Symbiont Armour pricing, while CoC Kaeltar is ridiculous. There isn't a faction that wouldn't take CoC Kaeltar at its current price even without the Mates/Bombs.

And let's not forget linkability. Devas don't get to combine with 2 other troops (not even 2 other Devas) to get +1 burst and ignore the penalty that makes them discounted.

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How did a Deva even get thrown into this? Holding up one of the best troops from one faction and just grabbing one from another says nothing of balance. The 16pt mymridon option is awesome as are posthumans. Tohaa definitely have some outliers for their internal balance with mates being pyschological as much as pointed poorly, but as a faction they arent massively out in front.

Deva is a closer comparison to a Gao rael, exact same cost for the spitfire but deva is .5 swc cheaper. The stat lines are pretty similar whilst the gr has 4-2 offsetting symbioarmour vs nwi.

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Thank you for your suggestions. I really appreciate it . 

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 2:00 PM, Dasaan said:

@doydoy 

However, the Sakiel is not a uniquely horrible offender when it comes to cheap "Heavy Infantry".  I would direct your attention to Haramaki in the Japanese Sectorial Army, Unidrons in Onyx Contact Force, Magister Knights in Military Orders, and Chain Rifle/SMG Wu Ming in Imperial Service.  And in your own army, you have the rightly feared and various-flavored Dog-Warriors, who have ruined many a PanO player's defensive line.

Dassan, your reply had been most helpful. I was not aware of Haramaki or Magister Knights and they seem problematic to me. I somewhat feel crushed playing Ariadna : ( I don't want to waste my BS attacks/regular orders against those cheap and tough units.

My Tohaa opponent was order rich with 15 regular orders and my Van Zant didn't hurt him much in the first round even though I took down his 3 cheap units with my Van Zant using 9-2=7 regular orders. Actually, it wasn't all in vain as I took down his Neurocinetics HMG with my Van Zant. 

However, I realize that Ariadna isn't the only faction with cheap troops. The conclusion I reach: if my opponent has 15+ regular orders with tough (2 wound) troops, then I shouldn't use my Van Zant (or Uxia McNeill) just for random killing in the first round. Using 9-2=7 orders to inflict 5 BS damage which would kill only 2 units with 2 wounds does not seem good enough. My opponent would lose only 2 cheap troops and 2 regular orders. 

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 2:00 PM, Dasaan said:

@doydoy 

logo_301.png Ariadna
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  orden_irregular.png1  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_19.pngVOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
logo_19.pngVOLUNTEER Chain Rifle, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 6)
logo_12.pngSCOUT Ojotnik, D-Charges, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 29)
logo_9.pngFOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
logo_9.pngFOXTROT (Forward Observer) Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
logo_26.pngCHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
logo_26.pngCHASSEUR (Minelayer) Rifle, Light Flamethrower, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 20)
logo_3.pngSPETSNAZ (CH: Ambush Camouflage) HMG / Pistol, CCW, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
logo_5.pngTANKHUNTER Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
logo_16.pngDOG-WARRIOR 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / AP CCW. (0 | 27)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png3  orden_irregular.png4  orden_impetuosa.png2
logo_22.pngCATERAN T2 Sniper Rifle / Pistol, AP CCW. (1 | 24)
logo_10.pngHARDCASE FRONTIERSMAN Tactical Bow, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_29.png112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
logo_4.pngGRUNT Lieutenant Rifle, Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
logo_4.pngGRUNT Heavy Flamethrower, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
logo_14.pngIRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)
logo_14.pngIRMANDINHO Chain Rifle, D-Charges, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 8)

6 SWC | 299 Points

Your list has none of my favorites: Van Zant, Uxia McNeill (superior infiltration) and Veteran Kazak AP HMG. Also, I don't understand why you or other people favor Cateran. It costs a valuable, regular order and I'll be better off with a regular Line kazak sniper. 

In my next game, I want to try something completely different though: 2 x Line Kazak missile launchers, 2 x line kazak snipers and 4 x rifle infiltrations (Foxtrot and S.A.S.) for the suppression fire. Ariadna doesn't have Neurokinetics or Total Reaction and I want to try a coordinated order of rifle-suppressive fire in the first round to achieve ARO superiority. 

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ehm, cateran ha T2 sniper...plus limited camo and climbing plus...it's a perfect solo unit, it can reach any spot on the map, has the potential to kill any unit with 1-2 wounds with one shot...

Generally LI like kazaks with heavy weapons are considered not effective outside of a link. After all you want that weapon on your best hitters, they should be more resilient or have some defensive bonus etc...

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daasans' list is a perfect example for a standart winner list for ariadna. with such a list , ariadna player can bring all of his strong points to the table.

instead of scout, i would try to bring heayyflamer grunts. after a succesful ph roll, they are the last thing a tohaa player wants to see.

bring flamethrowers, try to kill one member from each link instead of trying killing all. extra wounds are only order consuming for you. take a spetnaz hmg and fire till they die.

anyways... tohaa the master race!

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Down on the Cateran? I think you have a lot to learn about Ariadna. A Cateran is FAR superior to any line infantry with sniper rifles. No one fears unlinked LI ARO pieces. They'll just get picked off one by one. Cateran has marker state and a T2 sniper to protect him and threaten anything your opponent throws at you. If you want suppression fire infiltrators, Hardcases do that quite well for bargain basement points. Irregular units are valuable because they are so inexpensive and because you don't have to worry if they die.

Anyhoo, Tohaa have some excellent units, including Sakiel and Makaul. I don't think the Symbiomates are good for the game. But they are certainly not unbalanced enough that other factions, especially Ariadna, have a poor chance of winning. It all comes down to experience and skill. Lots of things feel overpowered the first time you lose to them, but over time you'll learn how to beat them.

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9 hours ago, doydoy said:

 

Your list has none of my favorites: Van Zant, Uxia McNeill (superior infiltration) and Veteran Kazak AP HMG. Also, I don't understand why you or other people favor Cateran. It costs a valuable, regular order and I'll be better off with a regular Line kazak sniper. 

The problem is they are all subpar choices, but there is nothing wrong with that as you love them so let's talk how to use them. 

Van zant: the most renound "surprise f-face" (team america) model in the game.  Against other lists your bringing him on to gut the opponent, problem is you can't really gut tohaa the same way. Instead you turn the strength of triads against the opponent. What you want to do is bring him on in a position where by the end of your turn you are in suppression fire in lof where the tohaa would want to hide his non active triad members. Nothing will throw a wrench like not being able to safly maneuver without turning orders to clearining one model from the backfield.

Uxia: Plant her accross a movement lane and voarding shotgun any triad that comes close, alternativly use the twin assult pistols at burst 5 to drop single models up close, (you have a sakiel paramedic, thats cute).

Vet kaz ap hmg: this guy is the biggest bloat against tohaa, ap hmg is wasted against an army with hi that have armor 3. Bs 0 means he is paper to an army full of viral. Still mimetism and ssl2 are nice mods for a gunfighter, but i would switch to either the t2 xvisor or rifle light flame thrower.

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21 minutes ago, Wombat85 said:

The problem is they are all subpar choices,

I dont think I've ever heard Uxia and Van Zant being labeled Sub Par Choices before. D:

@doydoy

One thing that Tohaa does really well is break alot of the baseline rules of the game. This means that if you aren't as experienced or havent played against them regularly they can feel pretty busted. But I would encourage you to keep trying, they can be played around, they arent unbeatable. 

As has been mentioned earlier you may be comparing the wrong things to Sakiels to try and determine their efficacy. Sakiels are good but an approximately equivalently priced Chasseur or Foxtrot bring a lot to the table including improved durability and aggressive options (through more deployment options, a to hit penalty and the marker state). You also have some pretty cool stuff like 6pt Volunteers, and 5pt Tractor Muls to help bulk up your orders and get alot of stuff done. 

Another thing to consider is that the Veteran can look a bit meh compared to a Sakiel but he's much more closely related to the Ectros. The Ectros HMG and the Vet AP HMG are pretty similar stat lines and price points. 

Ectros

  • 2 Wounds and he becomes a line troop
  • Vulnerability to fire
  • Nanopulser compliments the HMG nicely
  • Fireteam: Triad as a defensive skill
  • Hackable

Veteran

  • 2 Wounds and he dies 
  • Vulnerability to Viral
  • AP HMGs are pretty great, Heavy pistol is an alright addition
  • Sixth Sense as a Defensive skill
  • Mimetism as a Defensive skill
  • Non Hackable

When I look at a break down like that, it makes me feel like the Veteran and the Ectros are pretty comparable. The ectros maybe has a little more trouble guarding his wounds, but in exchange he gets to become a line dude when he dies. The Veteran has more tools to keep himself safe and gets a nice gun upgrade. 

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On 19/09/2017 at 3:49 PM, Wombat85 said:

This is not how movement works. If you only move once in a order it is always the first move value, regardless of if you do it as the first or second part. The 4" only kicks in if its a move-move

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Attributes

I will admit when I'm wrong. Yes it is always the first movement stat if you move once.

Characteristics: fury

Pg47 of the rule book.

Table with legal combinations of skills for the impetuous order.

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The Rasail makes the Sakiel look like an incompetent president

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