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Advice versus Aleph and other Elites

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I have a regular Aleph opponent that pretty roundly trounces my Haqqislam. I feel like I am bringing the wrong tools for the job, or at least the tools that work against the normal factions. Mostly I'm looking for tools that will help leverage the strengths of Haqqislam, especially in ITS9 where having one combat group (and thus elite armies) are advantaged. I suspect it is more of I'm prejudiced toward the units I like historically rather than ALEPH OP!!!11!, so I'm interested in what other folks use against our AI overlords.

For example, leaning on Fidays to alpha strike typically doesn't work due to numerous NWI (unless trading Shock for Damage using the knife) and higher MA on cheaper targets. TO and heavy armor in the form of Tuaregs and Al Fasids can be done cheaper and more efficiently using Posthumans, such that their sacrifice is much worse for Haqq when put face to face. Infiltrators are strong and tough, putting Haqq on their heels right away. Not to mention ODD.

I'm leaning to augmenting a Shihab with Marksmanship 2, which should at least deal with the NWI side of things, but the prevalence of TO (especially cheap TO in the form of Posthuman 2 that ALSO happens to be a hacker) also makes this a huge risk. There is also Asawira teams in HB, but they are a bit of a glass cannon with such low armor.

Looking forward to what we think for limited insertion scale Haqq armies against more elite armies.

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I would strongly recommend -not- playing Limited Insertion against Aleph, as that'd always be strongly in their favour. Haqqislams strength against Aleph are our cheap, irregular spam units. Some suggestions:

Djanbazan with HMG - for killing the proxy sniper and other OOD/TO-cammo targets. Burst is king, so the Djanbazan HMG is far superior to the Djanbazan Sniper when you have to deal with entrenched TO-cammo enemies. Always bring this guy against Aleph, always.

Muyib/Ghulam with E/Maulers - for making Achilles cry.

Fiday with mines - for killing the Sophotect, or exploiting any deployment mistake Aleph might possibly make. Take any opportunity to bleed their order pool, to slow the advance of their terrifying Heavy Infantry heroes. Remember that NWI models hates mines, as they are shock damage. I always use the knife with the Fiday, pretty much no matter what I'm going up against.

Fanous Remote - an extremely fast, mobile repeater. Good for hacking.

Rafiq Remote - slightly complicated to use, but with Sensor, Sat-Lock and Triangulated Fire, offers some potentially useful tools against Aleph.

Halqa with light grenade launcher - for speculative shooting within 16", to kill Myrmidon links. Place it prone on a roof in the middle of the board and start hurling grenades.

Barid - for a strong hacking game in general. Remember that the hacking program that Aleph hates the most is Oblivion. Isolating Achilles or Hector can ruin their day, especially if you've managed to go Allahu Akbar! on the Sophotect.

Leila Sharif - killer hacking + shock damage, perfect against Aleph.

Ayyar - surprise shot lvl 2 plus shock marksman rifle and two viral pistols, pretty effective even if you have to go up against ODD.

Muttawi'ah - for making Achilles cry. Always bring against Aleph.

Daylami with panzerfaust - for obnoxious AROs. I once brought down a Marut with a 7 pts Daylami.

Warcor - for obnoxious AROs.

Naffatûn - burn those damn Myrmidon links.

Anything with missile launcher - for killing link teams.

Maghariba Guard - can pick most Aleph units apart, as long as you don't let them reach close combat. The flame thrower is especially handy. In my experience, Aleph players very seldom run their own TAG, due to its monstrous points cost, and the Maghariba guard can be quite fearsome if they're not prepared. But you -must- slow their advance, so they don't throw their close combat monsters at you.

Hunzakut - for seeding the midfield with repeaters and mines, slowing Aleph's advance. Always bring against Aleph.

Farzan minelayer - for seeding the midfield with mines. Mines are bot shock and ignores ODD.

Lasiq - viral ammo fucks Aleph up. The rifleman is generally better than the sniper against Aleph.

Doctors - we have better doctors than them, make use of it.

Bashi Bazouks - then can arrive unexpectedly, have chain colts and potentially E/Maulers, all good tools to mess with Aleph.

If you play Qapu Khalki, a janissary pain train link can be effective, as they have the ability to become a full five man link, which Steel Phalanx doesn't, and with their link team bonuses, can beat almost any Aleph unit in face to face rolls. The missile launcher profile is especially important against Aleph.







 

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34 minutes ago, Natsymir said:

I would strongly recommend -not- playing Limited Insertion against Aleph, as that'd always be strongly in their favour. Haqqislams strength against Aleph are our cheap, irregular spam units. Some suggestions:

Djanbazan with HMG - for killing the proxy sniper and other OOD/TO-cammo targets. Burst is king, so the Djanbazan HMG is far superior to the Djanbazan Sniper when you have to deal with entrenched TO-cammo enemies. Always bring this guy against Aleph, always.

Muyib/Ghulam with E/Maulers - for making Achilles cry.

Fiday with mines - for killing the Sophotect, or exploiting any deployment mistake Aleph might possibly make. Take any opportunity to bleed their order pool, to slow the advance of their terrifying Heavy Infantry heroes. Remember that NWI models hates mines, as they are shock damage. I always use the knife with the Fiday, pretty much no matter what I'm going up against.

Fanous Remote - an extremely fast, mobile repeater. Good for hacking.

Rafiq Remote - slightly complicated to use, but with Sensor, Sat-Lock and Triangulated Fire, offers some potentially useful tools against Aleph.

Halqa with light grenade launcher - for speculative shooting within 16", to kill Myrmidon links. Place it prone on a roof in the middle of the board and start hurling grenades.

Barid - for a strong hacking game in general. Remember that the hacking program that Aleph hates the most is Oblivion. Isolating Achilles or Hector can ruin their day, especially if you've managed to go Allahu Akbar! on the Sophotect.

Leila Sharif - killer hacking + shock damage, perfect against Aleph.

Ayyar - surprise shot lvl 2 plus shock marksman rifle and two viral pistols, pretty effective even if you have to go up against ODD.

Muttawi'ah - for making Achilles cry. Always bring against Aleph.

Daylami with panzerfaust - for obnoxious AROs. I once brought down a Marut with a 7 pts Daylami.

Warcor - for obnoxious AROs.

Naffatûn - burn those damn Myrmidon links.

Anything with missile launcher - for killing link teams.

Maghariba Guard - can pick most Aleph units apart, as long as you don't let them reach close combat. The flame thrower is especially handy. In my experience, Aleph players very seldom run their own TAG, due to its monstrous points cost, and the Maghariba guard can be quite fearsome if they're not prepared. But you -must- slow their advance, so they don't throw their close combat monsters at you.

Hunzakut - for seeding the midfield with repeaters and mines, slowing Aleph's advance. Always bring against Aleph.

Farzan minelayer - for seeding the midfield with mines. Mines are bot shock and ignores ODD.

Lasiq - viral ammo fucks Aleph up. The rifleman is generally better than the sniper against Aleph.

Doctors - we have better doctors than them, make use of it.

Bashi Bazouks - then can arrive unexpectedly, have chain colts and potentially E/Maulers, all good tools to mess with Aleph.

If you play Qapu Khalki, a janissary pain train link can be effective, as they have the ability to become a full five man link, which Steel Phalanx doesn't, and with their link team bonuses, can beat almost any Aleph unit in face to face rolls. The missile launcher profile is especially important against Aleph.







 

This, especially Mutts. Mutts make Aleph cry.

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Absolutely what the guys  above have said! Mines, repeaters, hacking, flames, templates and AD. 

Youre not gonna win FTF shooting so play sneaky and ambush them.

I have had great success with the hacking game - with our WiP 15 is very significant to get repeaters (hunzakut/Baird) and infiltrating hackers (al hawwa/Ragik) down and immobilize/isolate rude dudes (mutts). 

One game I immobilized their big dude in the first turn with an infiltrated al hawwa. It  broke the link so I could then move up safely into suppression fire lanes with leila and Jan HMG. I charged a mutt up behind cover then so every move they did I could challenge a Jammer attack aro. Best thing was that he turned out to be the LT so they were all irregular next turn and when he went frenzied he ran out to get the mutt into my fire arcs. 

Steel phalanx seem to be focused on Fire teams so lots of template weapons and cc bogs them down (chain rifle/shotgun Kum) also flanking can be v successful with bashis (with E/M mines). Also remember that if a template hits then the rest of the link gets hit so shotguns are amazing here.

Mines are essential - do the old mine around the corner recamo and pop out a Farzan trick. 

Finally It's often -6 to hit the buggers cos of ODD. We have flames in naffatun and HRLs. Burn it off with surprise hafza HRL. 

Im not sure but I don't think they have much (if any) infiltrators/ AD so take full advantage and dominate the midfield with your minelayers, repeaters and hackers to slow them down and force AROs to your advantage. 

Let us know how you get on! 👊 

*Edit* ah limited insertion... that messes up all my experiences then 🙄

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Sooo guys wrote really good things, BUT! (there's always a butt, and what a butt this time :P)...

You forgot our fantastic motorcycles! Our great Kums, who are fast as hell, have smoke grenades and chain rifles. Our Kasym The Man, who is more resolute and works magnificietly with Djan. And, last but not least...

nazarova3.JPG

She's highly unhappy that you forgot about her! Two Flamethrowers on 8-6 MOV. She'll gonna burn you like she burns those hellish ODD ;)

It's great that if you ride near some clustered enemies they have to decide to ARO first (if they aren't in 4-man link), and then you can adjust your second skill to what fits you best - put those flamers or maybe punish some poor guys with option for 3 Breaker Pistol hits? 

 

I agree, that it can be really hard to fight against Aleph, but we have some good options. Like Djan destroying their links through smoke - yeah, that's what we like, especially that no Aleph sectorial have full 5-man links. I prefer HMG Djan, but Sniper is also good with shock ammo.

And - remember about Knauf! He has MSV L1, so hits better than without it, but what's more important - he can shot Pheonix and other enemies from preferable range and has DA + Shock ammo. Nice stuff. He'll definitely be my sniper in next big tournament in Poland.

 

And yes, sometimes it's hard to use Fidays against Aleph, but you always can take Djabel (who can win CC even against tougher ones or just kill the small guys) or the Fiday with mines. Mines are great.

 

So - just prepare yourself, win and let us now how happy you are ;)

 

 

PozdRawiam / Greetings

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5 Kum riders(including Kasym and Zulyeka) will RUIN an aleph players day. They will be at them in 2 orders (their own two orders) and then be going ham with templates. I love the Kum! Paired with the HMG Djan, work will get done.

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5 hours ago, theGricks said:

This, especially Mutts. Mutts make Aleph cry.

I'm only partly joking, but it does seem like the answer to every "How does Haqq deal with X?" question is "Bring Mutts"

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2 hours ago, TehMik said:

I'm only partly joking, but it does seem like the answer to every "How does Haqq deal with X?" question is "Bring Mutts"

And roll Crits:D

 

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18 hours ago, TehMik said:

I'm only partly joking, but it does seem like the answer to every "How does Haqq deal with X?" question is "Bring Mutts"

XDXDXD

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Just remember with Mutts (especially Vs SP), all the martial arts means that you're not going to be getting out of LOS Jammer AROs. All the high PHs make the templates very dodgable. Lots of decent BTS's. Potential for lots of MSV, and running into impact templates (so don't group anything by the Mutts). I find them much more useful by ending my turn with them right next to the SP links and making them eat up their orders than directly facing them during my active turn. Of course, if you know their lieutenant or are in range of a crucial piece, go all out to try for it.

Rafiqs are amazing with Marksmanship LVL2 as well. I'll always bring one against Aleph.

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Thanks guys. I should specific this is *generic* Aleph, if that matters.

I really like to lean on Djanbazans usually, but I had (at least in this case) Thrasymedes and a Posthuman 2 up in my business in Rescue, basically starting right on top of my Djan. I know how to use the Fiday normally, but I was mostly faced with Myrmidon variants with equal Martial Arts, or Devabots.

I think the advice on non-BS based attacks are pretty key. Even the units that don't have ODD probably have Dogged or NWI, so mines are probably the way to go. I have also used Knauf to good effect, so maybe I'll revisit him. Maybe for ITS9 it is worth leaning into two combat groups rather than LI-style to avoid the Strategic token use against me.

 

Non-LI style

logo_401.png Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png8  orden_irregular.png2  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_37.pngBARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
logo_15.pngRAFIQ REMOTE Rifle + Light Shotgun, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
logo_43.pngFASID HMG + (Smoke and Normal) Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53)
logo_57.pngKNAUF MULTI Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
logo_32.pngFARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_11.pngTUAREG Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 35)
logo_12.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
logo_40.pngMUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_10.pngHUNZAKUT (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
logo_6.pngDJANBAZAN Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 31)
logo_33.pngNASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

GROUP 2sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png1  orden_irregular.png3  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_25.pngBASHI BAZOUK Submachine Gun, Chain-colt / Pistol, CC Weapon. (0 | 12)
logo_40.pngMUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
logo_1.pngGHULAM Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
logo_45.pngWARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

4.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

PROS: 2 MSV units, 5 units with mines, two hackers

CONS: Allows strategic use of command tokens against me in ITS9.

LI Style

logo_401.png Haqqislam
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

GROUP 1sep.gifsep.giforden_regular.png9  orden_irregular.png1  orden_impetuosa.png1
logo_37.pngBARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Lieutenant Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
logo_15.pngRAFIQ REMOTE Rifle + Light Shotgun, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
logo_43.pngFASID HMG + (Smoke and Normal) Light Grenade Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 53)
logo_57.pngKNAUF MULTI Sniper / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 32)
logo_32.pngFARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_12.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
logo_6.pngDJANBAZAN HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 35)
logo_29.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 45)
logo_33.pngNASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3) x 2
logo_11.pngTUAREG Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 33)
logo_40.pngMUTTAWI'AH Chain Rifle, E/Marat, Jammer, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)

6 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

PROS: 2 MSV units, 4 units with mines, doesn't allow strategic use of command tokens against me in ITS9.

CONS: One Ghazi, no Hunzakut, one hacker

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On LI versus 2 groups:

Remember that, say, 14-2 orders is still more than 10, and that this manipulation costs your opponent a CT. 

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22 hours ago, Paskaharppuuna said:

Would KTS work, with the Blitzens that cause isolation?

 In vanilla, best bet is to do it in active, but the dice will be worse against ODD than mutts. 9 on one dice in good range if they aren't in cover Vs whatever they do back. To be fair if you have that kind of angle you want a HRL with its template and extra dice to really dish out pain, but again ODD is going to make life hard. Djans, mutts, mines, and e-maulers ignore the mods. Govad HMG could see use here too.

 Naffatun are good here too. Move flame, and then just park it there for your opponent to deal with.

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On ‎2017‎.‎09‎.‎22‎. at 6:14 PM, Edster said:

Im not sure but I don't think they have much (if any) infiltrators/ AD...

SP players sometimes use Ekdromoi (chiefly the hacker) or Diomedes. In LI a combat group of 9 is more than telling. (No TO camo in SP!)

Thrasymedes can be taken with infiltration. (No Fireteam membership makes this a risky decision.)

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On 9/22/2017 at 5:15 PM, TehMik said:

I'm only partly joking, but it does seem like the answer to every "How does Haqq deal with X?" question is "Bring Mutts"

Well I mean I don't want to say thats true....but thats true.

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4 minutes ago, theGricks said:

Well I mean I don't want to say thats true....but thats true.

nah, Muttawi'ahs are the absolutely worst at dealing with snipers with shock ammo and MSV2!

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Just now, Natsymir said:

nah, Muttawi'ahs are the absolutely worst at dealing with snipers with shock ammo and MSV2!

Everyone has their Achilles heel. Except Achilles. Aleph made sure his heel was well armored this go around.

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They aren't the answer when you want few orders, but otherwise, yes.

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As a main ALEPH player - the way you win against ALEPH is simple:
Make them waste orders.

No matter what you do, ALEPH is order starved. If I need to spend orders discovering / taking the long way to avoid or kill mines or Muttas / setting a trap in place so the Fiday doesnt rampage then you already won half of the game.

Trying to overpower ALEPH is a exercise in futility. We have better tools than you for a direct engagement. And that applies no matter who is the you we are talking about - with *maybe* the exception of PanO. So the best way to handle us is to force us to waste our few and precious orders doing things that in the end contribute very little to the game objectives.

Haqq has *the* best order waste unit in the game in the form of the Muttawi'ah. You have very cheap 7 point camo / infiltrating SOBs with panzerfausts that simply cannot be ignored because D14 AP+EXP is too nasty. You have a decent access to perimeter weapons, and you have what is possibily the best "handle me on turn 1 or kiss your game goodbye" unit in the Fiday. You shouldn't have too much trouble handling ALEPH, as long as you don't play to our strenghts.

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23 minutes ago, Wyrmnax said:

As a main ALEPH player - the way you win against ALEPH is simple:
Make them waste orders.

No matter what you do, ALEPH is order starved.

Sorry if I derail the thread completely, but whenever I play against Aleph, they seem to have almost as many orders as I do. They have 2X2 remotes (8 points), up to 6 Dakinis (13 pts), and 3 Thorakitai (12 points), and netrods to boot. That's just as cheap as Haqqislams cheapest regular orders, with plenty of Availability. Sure, because of Haqqislam's amazing irregulars, they tend to have a few guys more on the board, but really, I've never felt that Aleph is that order starved.

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Especially so in Limited Insertion where there's only going to be small to no disparities in order counts.

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Right, I don't tend to think of Aleph as necessarily order starved. I think this was true earlier on, but between Dakinis, Myrmidons, Thorakitai, and Posthumans (not to mention Netrods), there is no reason an Aleph player can't have a list with a more standard amount of orders/models.

I think leaning into wasting orders is a good idea anyway, especially as far as mines and Ghazis. Like I said earlier, I may just need to suck up the Strategic token use and make a list with more annoying mooks in it, since ITS9 is more of soft limited insertion (phrasing!) rather than strict.

 

Thanks to all who have commented, I really appreciate it.

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Small update: used the second list against Yu Jing in Frontlines with the first list. Got hosed. Yojimbo chopped up the Fasid, after the augmented Rafiq got smoked and Intuitive Fire'd by Kuang Shi. Fiday was locked down by Koalas, but eventually had to eat one to destroy an Aragoto. I'm beginning to think I'm not very good at this game!

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Out of curiosity, why are you using Knuaf? You can save 1 point and 1 SWC by going with a Djanbazan sniper. This gives you better MSV and Regeneration at the cost of DA ammunition (because the Djanbazan's sniper rifle is already Shock, which is what Marksmanship L1 is buying you). Knauf hits a little bit harder, but is MUCH less survivable. For one thing, he's not shock-immune, so if he loses a sniper-duel, you're hosed.

Haqqislam's strength lies in its trickery. But the best use of that trickery is in focusing on the mission objectives. In a game like Frontline, your objectives are position and board control. You want to make moving forward as tough on your opponent as possibly can, and you want to deploy as far forward as you possibly can. Your first list is pretty good for this, but could benefit from an Al'Hawwa and one or more Halqa. Or another Bashi Bazouk, with both held until late in the game and brought on in the zone in which they will be most decisive.

Vanilla Haqqislam has such a huge variety of units that you really need to focus on the mission objectives to get the most out of them.

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