TehMik

HB and Limited Insertion - What Are Your Thoughts?

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With ITS 9: TREASON out for us to enjoy, it seems that a bone has been thrown to those who want to use 10-order lists. Many factions have TAGs or something similar to eat up a chunk of points, but HB does not. I've been toying with a 10-order list for HB, and it seems to come down to "do I want specialists or not?". Also, going this route means giving up some of the specific strengths of the sectorial, namely cheap irregular orders that are amazing. Looking at you, Daylami and Mutts.

So, outside of an Limited Insertion tournament, is a 10-order list something you would do? And why?

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I would absolutely not do it, for the very reasons you mention - Daylami and Muttawi'ahs are the best things that we got. We've also got a strong hacking game, but it takes cheap stuff like Barids, Leila Sharif and Fanous remotes to be effective. So running a list of just 10 orders with Hassassins is to cripple oneself severely. 

It's on the level that in a recent tournament that was not Limited Insertion, but with a tight time frame for each round, I elected not to play Bahram as their hordes takes too much time to manage. I instead ran vanilla with a Maghariba list (and still squeezed in some Daylami and Muttawi'ahs).

 

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I just had a hard time to come up with a List....

logo_402.png Biotech1
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (Minelayer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. Antipersonnel Mines, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Lieutenant AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 41)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)
logo_3.pngGOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
logo_3.pngGOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
logo_3.pngGOVAD Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
logo_3.pngGOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
logo_3.pngGOVAD Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)

3.5 SWC | 300 Points

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I would try it, but like you said, no Mutts, no Daylami. You have capable specialists, but this list is missing a lot. I could fit in a Farzan if I forego the 5th core team member, which could be better in the end.

But this kind of List doesnt seem to be much fun, so I would very likely not play 10 orders with HB outside of Bahram.

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logo_402.png Hassassin Bahram
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_4.pngMUYIB Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (Normal and Smoke Ammo.) / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_22.pngÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
logo_22.pngÁYYĀR Sniper / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0.5 | 39)
logo_3.pngGOVAD (Number 2) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 22)
logo_3.pngGOVAD Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 23)
logo_3.pngGOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)
logo_9.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
logo_10.pngFARZAN (Forward Observer) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)

6 SWC | 300 Points

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A sniper, a linked HMG and Spitfire, and a Fiday all for face punching. 3 HI give some good survivability. 

Each link has a specialist, plus an infiltrating one and the two Ayyars for a total of 5. 

Not really playing to HB's strengths but it looks playable to me, though maybe try and change the Govad KHD to an HD for fairy dust with 3 HI kicking about. 

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I think writing off the Bahram just because of Daylamis and Mutts is a bit unfair to the Sectoral tbh! 

logo_402.png Hassassin Bahram
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Doctor Plus (MediKit) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_25.pngLEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_20.pngHASSASSIN HUSAM YASBIR (Holoprojector L1) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Viral CCW, Knife. (0 | 27)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 39)
logo_22.pngÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
logo_9.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 30)

4 SWC | 300 Points

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The list above (or something to the effect) is the first thing that comes to mind for me tbh. It's not like we have a ton of options though.

The thing is, like I said before, even 13-2 orders is still more than 10 orders (and that's only counting first turn), and your opponent won't have 4th Command Token, so I think it's pretty pointless to tailor your list around "stripping immunity" unless you was playing single group before (and played a faction that is built around that).

It's a nice buff to those not willing to buy/assemble/paint/transport a ton of minis though :P

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No reason it would not work.

We have very good HI for this. Asawira are BTS 9. With Fairy Dust you can ignore most threats to HI. Having Stealth is icing on the cake. A Haris of these is hard to crack. They can deal with Camo via their Nanopulsar. And they push Buttons.

Yes, you start at less orders, but focus with Fiday on killing cheerleaders and that levels fast. 

Add Muyib core link, just 3 mind you. Put the Lt. in there. Rifle and double duty GL are especially nasty. Add Farzan with CoC.

Last 2 up to your meta. 

Do break links to put HI into suppessive fire once you are in good position. Worst case its 2 command points (one coordinated order for supressive fire, another one to re-establish core link - though in later turns the impetuous order might be better). Well worth it. 

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I tried LI HB and it went terribly. Other armies can pull off low orders and bring strong HI core links while the best we cant do is a Haris and Duo, While Muyibs are strong, they are still LI, and in a Core vs Core link in LI, they are probably facing either HI or just a straight up tag. QK does LI much better with more durable units. HB strengths is their asymmetric warfare, some of their best units are low survival glass cannons (Ghazi, Mutts, Fidays, Farzans). Even with 4 Asawira (a light Heavy Infantry), you will be hard pressed to keep enough orders into late game to stay effective. Many of these links will have HMG's and Multi weapons which can force enough saves that Dogged Muyibs will go straight to dead. 

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Well, if we're talking Limited Insertion on both sides, Bahram has a few tools that can tip the scales a bit.

But the thread opener was talking about a 10 orders Bahram list versus whatever, and in that case, Bahram don't stand a chance.

The thing with Limited Insertion is that your enemy will more or less be forced to have gaps in his deployment. One or two Fidays and a Ragik hacker can make for an absolutely brutal alpha strike in this scenario. The Fidays should put down mines to fuck with Link Teams, and then either assassinate vulnerable troopers to order bleed the enemy, or re-impersonate to, again, cause order bleed. The Ragik is perfect for helping the Fiday to deal with HIs, or possessing whatever TAG the enemy might bring. A Barid lieutenant is almost a must, as he can spend his lieutenant order on Controlled Jump for the Ragik, to land close to whatever he needs to hack.

We also have the boon of Doctor pluses in all serious Bahram links. The Muyib with E/Maulers is surprisingly useful in Limited Insertion scenarios, too.

It's still going to be an uphill battle, but Bahram can do well in Limited Insertion - on the condition that the enemy is Limited Insertion, too.

 

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here's one list based on my aforementioned doctrine. It could be more focused and optimized, for example using triple Farzan minelayers, but this seem more fun to play to me. The goal is -not- to engage in face to face rolls versus enemy link teams/rambos, we simply can't win that way. Rather, this list is for bleeding the enemy order pool by creating networks of mines, e/maulers, hackers and repeaters,  and punishing vulnerable deployments with the fidays. The Govad HMG is there to take down entrenched snipers with cammo and similar things that a list like this could struggle with, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to replace her with an extra Farzan minelayer. Also, don't forget that the Barid killer hacker is one of the best in the game, due to his special Lightning program that actually makes him able to win AROs against other killer hackers.

logo_402.png Noor al-Donya Limited Insertion
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_6.pngRAGIK Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0.5 | 32)
logo_5.pngBARID Hacker (Hacking Device) Lieutenant Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 21)
logo_5.pngBARID Hacker (Killer Hacking Device UPGRADE: Lightning) Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 16)
logo_9.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)
logo_12.pngAL-DJABEL Rifle + Light Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, Viral CCW, Knife. (0 | 35)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 45)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (Minelayer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. Antipersonnel Mines, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_10.pngFARZAN (Minelayer) Boarding Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 23)
logo_3.pngGOVAD HMG / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 29)

5 SWC | 300 Points

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I'm gonna test how HB-Limited Insertion does with this list today against a friend. Mission will be Firefight. Am super curious to see how it goes. Will update no how it does.

logo_402.png Hassassin Bahram
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 45)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Rifle + Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_25.pngLEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (Minelayer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. Viral Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
logo_22.pngÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
logo_9.pngFIDAY Boarding Shotgun, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

4 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

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@TehMik why no smoke? you have SWC to spare, so i made some changes for a Muyib+LGL and the Fiday with mines.

logo_402.png Hassassin Bahram
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

orden_regular.png10  
logo_8.pngASAWIRA (Fireteam: Haris) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (2 | 44)
logo_8.pngASAWIRA Doctor Plus (MediKit) AP Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0 | 45)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Rifle + Light Shotgun, Panzerfaust, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_25.pngLEILA SHARIF Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Shock Marksman Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 20)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (Minelayer) Rifle + Light Shotgun, D.E.P. Antipersonnel Mines, E/Mauler / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Spitfire, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 28)
logo_4.pngMUYIB Lieutenant Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher (Normal and Smoke Ammo.) / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
logo_4.pngMUYIB (X Visor) Heavy Rocket Launcher, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 22)
logo_22.pngÁYYĀR (Surprise Shot L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / 2 Viral Pistols, CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
logo_9.pngFIDAY Rifle + Light Shotgun, Antipersonnel Mines, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 31)

5.5 SWC | 300 Points

Open in Infinity Army

 

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4 hours ago, HardDisk said:

@TehMik why no smoke? you have SWC to spare, so i made some changes for a Muyib+LGL and the Fiday with mines.

 

Ok, so, that slipped my mind. I like your tweaks. Thanks!

The game last night went ok. I ended up losing, but it was close. I am just not used to running a list with so few orders so almost every turn I ran out of orders, which is entirely on me. I feel like with LI lists one has to commit to being aggressive, or at least more direct, in how the orders are spent. 

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