Regelridderen

My Pal Patroclus

53 posts in this topic

I just wanted to add a few words on Patroclus, after returning from a tournament, where he definitely were my man of the match.

Paddy is such an amazing guy on his own, but is sadly regarded as a poor discount Achilles, and just because Aleph has the bestest mini-TAG in the game, we shouldn't discount Paddy as just another fanboy. He is so much more.

THE ALPHASTRIKE : MOV 6-4, ODD and a Spitfire is pretty much the recipe for a supreme gunfighter in the game. You can quickly get into position and optimum range, while ODD and B4 is a surefire way to win an FtF. Within 3-4 orders, you can have Paddy in your opponents deployment zone, and from there on it's all about killing cheerleaders, and shooting people in the back. Not to mention the power of stealth in close quarters.

Unlike other ODD guys, who are vulnerable to MSV2+, Patroclus has the added defense of Holo-echoes, so can actually engage those troops with relative safety, or at least get to cross the board, before getting into a firefight.

And best of all; he's just an expendable offensive piece, unlike Achilles who'll be half the offensive power of your army.

THE RUSE : This is my favorite part about Patroclus, you can of course go with the thematical approach and impersonate the Big A- but that is just a waste of Paddys talent. There really is no point in disguising a main battle tank as a main battle tank. When you've got a ton of mobile firepower, you'll want to disguise it as something else. Three innocent Thorakitai cheerleaders to cover your backfield seems like a fairly innocent and reasonable choice to include in an army as a deterrent for AD/HD surprises, but when they suddenly turn out to be a fast murder machine, you've a proper surprise for your opponent – but opponents might just decide to ignore them, as there is no immediate threat. Instead I usually go for the specialist threat. Three daikini medics or three myrmidon hackers, as specialists win games, your opponent will want to engage them, but he'll also underestimate their 'combirifles'. Also with both choices being Hackable, they are perfect to draw attention from enemy hackers, who will hope to fry their circuits. In this way Patroclus can really mess up your opponents deployment, as he won't have the proper tools at hand to counter him.

MY USE OF PADDY : Usually I start by deploying the three myrmidon hackers on one flank, and see them send shivers down my opponents spine, looking at three ODD specialists with combi rifles and smoke. He'll be under the protection of a repeater connected to a Danavas hacker with White Noise, so if a canny opponent has placed an MSV2+ trooper in ARO, he'll be able to make his first move without fearing reprisal. From then on he'll usually be able to advance in relative safety, while killing the various threats on his way. This will usually bring him right into the opponent deployment zone, where he can take cover and go into suppression fire- forcing your opponent into approaching him with a -12 modifier or face the consequences next turn. Next step is to cover his back so you don't lose him- a garuda is nice, as it won't take more than an order to get into position, and Paddy has already cleared the way. This will waste my opponents first turn, as he'll need to regroup to deal with the threat to his rear, he might succeed in dealing with it, but not without expending orders and that is the main point, as long as he's dealing with you, he's not taking any objectives.

WHY NOT JUST GO WITH ACHILLES? It's true, that Achilles can do the things, that he do better than Patroclus– but unlike Achilles, Patroclus has no weak heels. There are no weaknesses for an opponent to exploit; he's not frenzied, he is not completely neutered by MSV2, he won't be held back by a repeater etc., so while Achilles might be 'better', Patroclus is 'broader'. And although 18 points might not seem like a big difference, 1 SWC point is and makes all the difference between including a CoC Officer, a Zayin, TO sniper etc.

-and at the end of the nothing stops you from including both..

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I tend to disguise him as a single Dakini. Contrary to holoechoes, you don't have to reveal it at your first turn by putting markers on him. And the dakini has the advantage of being 6-4 too, so that even when you start moving your "dakini", the opponent still doesn't expect Pat. He will know it when Pat will reach the first repeater/hacker and learn that this mini is not hackable, but it's already too late :)

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I think he's highly underrated and I kind of like him that way.

As well as being unhackable and bringing his own smoke cover, his holoechos are great for clearing mines and koalas.  I think this essentially makes him faster than Achilles when alpha striking. 

The extra surprise shot modifier is great for shooting TR bots at -12 when within 16 inches too.

Also, putting him in suppression just out of sight around a corner at the end of your turn means that, when his holoechoes return for free at the start of your opponents turn, you can put one at the edge in LOS already suppressing.

 

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<points upwards>

This.

The ability to clear minefields is just invaluable in a relatively low-order list. Not to mention Patty has at least 66% chance of surviving ANY attack due to three (3) holoecho markers...

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Do you use suppressing fire "trick" with him (putting him in suppressive fire out of LOF then reactivating the holoechoes at the start of your opponent turn) ?

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53 minutes ago, arkhos94 said:

Do you use suppressing fire "trick" with him (putting him in suppressive fire out of LOF then reactivating the holoechoes at the start of your opponent turn) ?

It is considered cheesy and borderline illegal. I do. Any time, my friend, any time! >:-{)

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1 hour ago, arkhos94 said:

Do you use suppressing fire "trick" with him (putting him in suppressive fire out of LOF then reactivating the holoechoes at the start of your opponent turn) ?

Never considered that. That's just mean – I'm just too nice to play this game ;)

3 hours ago, Nenyx said:

I tend to disguise him as a single Dakini. Contrary to holoechoes, you don't have to reveal it at your first turn by putting markers on him. And the dakini has the advantage of being 6-4 too, so that even when you start moving your "dakini", the opponent still doesn't expect Pat. He will know it when Pat will reach the first repeater/hacker and learn that this mini is not hackable, but it's already too late :)

Since Pat will usually be my first wave of attack, it matters little revealing the holo-echo, so I'm happy just using the ruse during deployment/opponents first turn, there is little benefit from the disguise in active turn, as your opponent cannot reorganize his troops, while the extra defense of Holo2 carries a real benefit.

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I really need to get mine painted and on the table soon. He was on my short list for my tournament this last weekend, but I didn't want to bring a completely new feature to me at the last minute. Thanks for all the tips though. His movement and durability is a really nice combo on paper.

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Really his ruse is very important.

Disguising him as achillies is dumb. Offensively they have the same stengths, and the same weaknesses, just pat is a budget version.

I love the daikini ruse, a humble daikini paramedic is not a threat, but is a reasonable inclusion, even in multiples. Same with the thorkakitai.

My other favorite is an Agema ML/MSR. They are completely different from pat. You force models to stay clear of that firelane for fear of smoke/bs attack. This clears the way for pat to advance up an open lane.

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2 hours ago, NateTehAggresar said:

My other favorite is an Agema ML/MSR. They are completely different from pat. You force models to stay clear of that firelane for fear of smoke/bs attack. This clears the way for pat to advance up an open lane.

How is that working for you? Putting down 3x1.5 SWC will surely raise a sceptic eyebrow - do you hide your majority of SWC in AD or HD? 

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3 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

How is that working for you? Putting down 3x1.5 SWC will surely raise a sceptic eyebrow - do you hide your majority of SWC in AD or HD? 

You put only one model and you use Holo1, not Holo2, when you want to hide Pat. Because if you use Holo2, you need to put markers to show the holo2 state. So the opponent knows you have Pat as soon as you deploy him.

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No they don't. If you deploy using models instead of Holoecho markers you don't need to place a Holoecho marker next to any of them until the start of your turn.

If the player is using models instead of Holoecho Markers, then at the start of his Active Turn or if he activates the Holoecho state in his Active Turn, the player must place a Holoecho Marker next to one of the three models, but it is not compulsory that model be the real Holoprojector L2 bearer. By this way, his adversary can know he is facing a Holoprojector L2 trooper in order to be able to delay his AROs. The player can remove that Holoecho Marker at the end of his Active Turn.
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Just now, Nenyx said:

You put only one model and you use Holo1, not Holo2, when you want to hide Pat. Because if you use Holo2, you need to put markers to show the holo2 state. So the opponent knows you have Pat as soon as you deploy him.

If you combine holo1 and holo2, you can place three Agema in your deployment. It is only in your active turn, you’ll need to place a marker and reveal them as holoechoes.

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2 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

How is that working for you? Putting down 3x1.5 SWC will surely raise a sceptic eyebrow - do you hide your majority of SWC in AD or HD? 

I don't deploy using holo 3, i only use holo 1?

The point of this ruse is to misdirect deployment, by hiding a short/mid range assult piece, as a long range fire suppprt piece. For instance, a ML can have a dramatic effect upon where you opponent feels safe to deploy link teams.

In vanilla hiding him as a lone daikini doesn't give anything away either. Between vanillas HD options and swc gaurdas, your opponent is kept guessing until pat reveals.

Of course you loose a free set of echos/surprise shot, but imo thats worth it to throw off deployment. You can always long skill reactivate halo 2, or just get a free rehalo after your turn. 

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@NateTehAggresar I'd never forego the protection of either holo2 or ODD, while putting Patroclus in the line of fire, thats just way too reckless for me. Don't you find, that you lose him a lot due to this- unless you go first of course?

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41 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

@NateTehAggresar I'd never forego the protection of either holo2 or ODD, while putting Patroclus in the line of fire, thats just way too reckless for me. Don't you find, that you lose him a lot due to this- unless you go first of course?

You also dont need* to deploy him exposed. Hidden prone or around a corner is sufficient to keep people from ending their turn in los down a lane, which is all pat needs to move down it.

I'm also not certain you're giving up ODD, pat has holo 3, which works the same as previous levels, but does not have negative feedback. NFB is tied to the equipment, not the state.

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Holoprojector

If i have it wrong, please let me know.

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12 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

If you combine holo1 and holo2, you can place three Agema in your deployment. It is only in your active turn, you’ll need to place a marker and reveal them as holoechoes.

If your opponent count your SWC, he will easy find something fishy (also, 3 agemas, all in ZOC of one another, also look quite strange, usually even if you take 3, you will have them spread to cover multiple firelanes)

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5 hours ago, NateTehAggresar said:

If i have it wrong, please let me know.

No, I think you've got it right.

Although the closest example is a holo impersonating a model with mimetism, and you then need to reveal, that those modifiers aren't applicable – so the opposite must be true to. Of course the only model in the game, that can do this is Pat (He is such a star).

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4 hours ago, arkhos94 said:

If your opponent count your SWC, he will easy find something fishy (also, 3 agemas, all in ZOC of one another, also look quite strange, usually even if you take 3, you will have them spread to cover multiple firelanes)

Or if he knows Agema are ava 2.  Which is why you place 4, so he knows one is real and has to respect that.

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3 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

No, I think you've got it right.

Although the closest example is a holo impersonating a model with mimetism, and you then need to reveal, that those modifiers aren't applicable – so the opposite must be true to. Of course the only model in the game, that can do this is Pat (He is such a star).

Yes, but you don't reveal the mod until after the enemy bs attack has been declared, until then he's a regular old Agema without ODD.

Its a judgement call whether to leave him exposed at deployment or not. But Agema, and Daikini, are my two favorite ruses.

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@NateTehAggresar yeah, I see your point now.

-

Glad I started this thread, there seems to be a whole bag of tricks in Patroclus, that I haven’t even gotten around to yet :)

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I only used him once, but to great effect. I disguised him as a Dactyl Engineer, which was a nasty surprise for enemy Yojimbo attempting to cut the Dactyl down in CC.

Main reason I fielded him was that I needed a Non-Impetous unit to escort VIP (it was one of the Paradiso missions). Since Pat won't get frenzied, he was the perfect choice.

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Hopefully you guys can excuse my crippling ignorance, but I just picked up Patroclus and was very excited to try him in SP with Achilles...

I am suddenly less excited about that.
I had a few concerns about running him as a duo with Achilles (specifically, if I have to put the Holo marker on one of the Achilles-holos, then my opponent immediately knows that the one isn't Achilles... and can you have a holo echo be a Link Leader? Because if not, then the Link Leader will always be either Pat or Achilles, and that seems way, way less useful...).

If I put him on the table as, say, 3 Daikini, I can't activate one of them independent of the others, right? They have to all activate at the same time, meaning that the "ruse" of them being Daikini lasts exactly as long as the first time I activate three at the same time?

I apologize again for my newbieness.

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You can  use your holo l1 only so your opponent is not sure it's pat (not many holo troopers in aleph ^^) at the beginning and when you're discovered you start using holo l2

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11 hours ago, Marx said:

Hopefully you guys can excuse my crippling ignorance, but I just picked up Patroclus and was very excited to try him in SP with Achilles...

I am suddenly less excited about that.
I had a few concerns about running him as a duo with Achilles (specifically, if I have to put the Holo marker on one of the Achilles-holos, then my opponent immediately knows that the one isn't Achilles... and can you have a holo echo be a Link Leader? Because if not, then the Link Leader will always be either Pat or Achilles, and that seems way, way less useful...).

If I put him on the table as, say, 3 Daikini, I can't activate one of them independent of the others, right? They have to all activate at the same time, meaning that the "ruse" of them being Daikini lasts exactly as long as the first time I activate three at the same time?

I apologize again for my newbieness.

You got it. The Achillies link is pretty much a neat fluff gimick, its not terribly good from a mechanics perspective.

If you project echos they all activate, giving away that there is holoprojector shenanigans going on. But thats okay if they mis deployed and arn't coving the daikini with as dangours threats because they only have combis.

Holo 1 lets you project as just 1 model, but you loose surprise shot, and the two decoys. You can always deploy using 1, then long skill to activate 2 and the holo echos.

During list construction you have to decide what lies your wanting to tell, and construct your force appropriatly, both to help misdirect your opponent, and to hide your misdirection.That is another reason why I dislike pat pretending to be achillies, they share spitfires/odd/6-4 move/excllent CC/multiple woundsish. Achillies is just pat to the extreme, but they dislike to face the same things, good msv. Daikini, and Agema are IMO good holo 1 lies because they cause your opponent to severely misunderstand the threat. Agema are slow firesupport, they are unlikely to advance up the board (into their own bad ranges) instead they are more likely to stay stationary and watch a fire lane or two, and are countered by whitenoise/eclpise, not MSV. Daikini are good army picks to begin with for budget specialists, and misrepresent range band and generally are far less threatening then pat, also opponents may wrongly think repeater nets will help slow him down.

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