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DarkPhoenix

Engineer and G: Servant working in tandem on 1 target?

Question

So Engineer is a Short Skill. It allows:

  • By declaring Engineer the user may make a Normal WIP Roll to repair the target and have it regain 1 Structure point. The user may declare uses of this Special Skill until the target has recovered its full STR.

It also allows to:

  • Alternatively, by passing a Normal WIP Roll, the user may cancel all of the target's states ...

On the Ghost page, under G: Servant ther is a note saying

  • Players cannot apply the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills to different targets in the same Order. The Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only be applied to one target per Order.

Does this allow Engineer and his Servant to both work on the same target (IMM2 Unconscious REM) to both use Engineer skill and fix the IMM2 condition as well as STR point?

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No, because the Servant isn't rolling.

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6 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

No, because the Servant isn't rolling.

Not sure i understand, but i am down with it.

Don't Engineer's result applies to the Servant, cos they using the same skill?

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It's in the paragraph before the one you quoted:

Thanks to this Special Skill, a trooper with G: Servant can cancel the Unconscious state of another trooper, recover STRpoints, and perform all the capabilities of the Doctor and Engineer Special Skills, even though they lack them. However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll.

My emphasis. The Servant itself doesn't have the Doctor or Engineer Skill, it just lets the controller work at a distance.

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Still don't get why that prevents them from working, but i'll go with that.

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Only one of them "works actively" in single order. They both can move for example, but only one repairs. And it's always the Engineer that rolls dice and does his job, be it by his own hands, or by the hands of servant. So they will never be able to repair two different targets in one order or to repairt 2STR pts in one target.

I was trying to explain it as clear as I can ;)

 

PozdRawiam / Greetings

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I understand the idea, that engineer is virtual-reality body possessing the little thing and work through it, and it wiould be quite a feat to repair something with one hand and blind while repaing another device through VR with another hand, but i just dont see any rules that make double repair Servant different from double-shooting with Synchronised Auxilia... the only thing is Servant can't appliy to different target. I probably missing some fundamental rule that says that model cannot roll for same skill performed 2 times at the same time.

Not that this situation would occur more frequently than once in a blue moon anyway.

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1 hour ago, DarkPhoenix said:

I understand the idea, that engineer is virtual-reality body possessing the little thing and work through it, and it wiould be quite a feat to repair something with one hand and blind while repaing another device through VR with another hand, but i just dont see any rules that make double repair Servant different from double-shooting with Synchronised Auxilia... the only thing is Servant can't appliy to different target. I probably missing some fundamental rule that says that model cannot roll for same skill performed 2 times at the same time.

Not that this situation would occur more frequently than once in a blue moon anyway.

A G:Synched bot has a weapon so can declare a BS attack of some sort when its controller does. The G:Servant doesn't have either the Doctor or Engineer skill, so can't declare either.

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Quote

Thanks to this Special Skill, a trooper with G: Servant can cancel the Unconscious state of another trooper, recover STR points, and perform all the capabilities of the Doctor and Engineer Special Skills, even though they lack them. However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll.

I just dont see the restriction that says Doc/Eng cant make the roll for Servant if he is performing his own order. It only says that one of them will do Idle if he can't make the order, but they both can.

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How is the Doc/Engineer making two Rolls at once?

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8 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

How is the Doc/Engineer making two Rolls at once?

Idk, like Burst 2, maybe. Tho that would pose a problem cos failure of 1 is -1 STR for remote while failure of another does nothing.

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Spoiler

From G: Servant

  • The Doctor/Engineer and the G: Servant trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target.

and from the G: Servant example

Players cannot apply the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills to different targets in the same Order. The Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only be applied to one target per Order.

@IJW Wartrader Seems pretty clear cut to me. There is absolutely no problem with repairing the same trooper twice in one Order if Engineer and Servant are able to get into BTB.

It is the Engineer who performs the Skill. But we know for certain the Bot can perform Engineer actions remotely, so why wouldn't he be able to assist in a repairing the same target if there is no restriction for it? It even makes sense.

@DarkPhoenix There is nothing stopping you from trying to repair 1STR and canceling Isolated etc in the same Order. Both requires to use the Short Skill Engineer and you're getting to use it twice.

ENGINEER SHORT SKILL
Optional.
REQUIREMENTS
  • The user must be in base to base contact with his target.
EFFECTS
  • By declaring Engineer the user may make a Normal WIP Roll to repair the target and have it regain 1 Structure point. The user may declare uses of this Special Skill until the target has recovered its full STR.
  • If the user fails his Normal WIP Roll, his target loses 1 Structure point instead of regaining one.
  • Alternatively, by passing a Normal WIP Roll, the user may cancel all of the target's states susceptible of being repaired by an Engineer (Burnt, Disabled, Immobilized, Isolated...). When these states are canceled, remove the corresponding Markers. If the target is affected by more than one of these states simultaneously, one single succesful WIP Roll cancels them all.
  • No ill effects are caused by failing the Normal WIP Roll to cancel the target's states, and the user may make further attempts as long as he keeps spending Orders.
  • The exception to this rule is the Unconscious state, which requires a separate WIP Roll to cancel, and whose cancellation does not affect other states. If the user fails his Normal WIPRoll, his target loses 1 Structure point, entering in Dead state, if applicable.

 

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3 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

It is the Engineer who performs the Skill. But we know for certain the Bot can perform Engineer actions remotely, so why wouldn't he be able to assist in a repairing the same target if there is no restriction for it? T

Because the Servant is incapable of rolling and the Engineer/Doctor can't roll twice. The wording was specifically changed from N2 to stop the controller and Servant being able to get two Rolls.

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13 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Because the Servant is incapable of rolling and the Engineer/Doctor can't roll twice. The wording was specifically changed from N2 to stop the controller and Servant being able to get two Rolls.

That is literally not what the rules say. The descriptive part is pointing out it's the Engineer/Doc performing the roll and then impose a 1 target restriction because of that.

An additional "only 1 Engineer/Doctor roll per Order" limit is further interpretation, not backed by RAW. The rule could have easily been written that way, but wasn't.

Never seen the N2 rules but maybe try to think of it as mechanically working as Burst 2 Engineer vs the same target? Not that I care, but it even makes sense for Engineers. ....and then we look at Docs where one failure means death and non Akbahr Docs can only bring targets back to 1 W and it doesn't, same as B2 Medkits so I really don't think we should go for intent and stick to RAW here. 

Sorry mate but I really think N2 memories got the better of you there. Is anyone able to look at the Spanish original? Maybe it's a translation issue? If the "only one target" restriction got slightly mistranslated that might explain a lot.

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34 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

That is literally not what the rules say. The descriptive part is pointing out it's the Engineer/Doc performing the roll and then impose a 1 target restriction because of that.

An additional "only 1 Engineer/Doctor roll per Order" limit is further interpretation, not backed by RAW. The rule could have easily been written that way, but wasn't.

"However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll."

Not 'the corresponding Rolls'. One Roll, singular.

So yes, that is literally what the rules say. No mention of multiple Rolls anywhere.

 

34 minutes ago, Teslarod said:

Never seen the N2 rules but maybe try to think of it as mechanically working as Burst 2 Engineer vs the same target? Not that I care, but it even makes sense for Engineers. ....and then we look at Docs where one failure means death and non Akbahr Docs can only bring targets back to 1 W and it doesn't, same as B2 Medkits so I really don't think we should go for intent and stick to RAW here. 

Sorry mate but I really think N2 memories got the better of you there. Is anyone able to look at the Spanish original? Maybe it's a translation issue? If the "only one target" restriction got slightly mistranslated that might explain a lot.

There is nothing anywhere in the Servant rules that says that you can get more than one Engineer/Doctor Roll.

And my memories are of insisting the clause was added when I helped edit N3. ;) 

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@IJW Wartrader if that clause is intended to fix that, then okay. But it really is ambiguous then.

You're clearly biased here and both the OP and I came to a wrong conclusion by logical means. Literally not what the rule says.

8 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

There is nothing anywhere in the Servant rules that says that you can get more than one Engineer/Doctor Roll.

Well yes there is

  • The Doctor/Engineer and the G: Servant trooper must declare the same Order, declaring the same Short Skills of the Order. However, it is not compulsory that they have the same target.

if it weren't for this exception

Players cannot apply the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills to different targets in the same Order. The Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only be applied to one target per Order.

which technically doesn't prevent declaring Engineer on the same target, then you could absolutely get multiple Engineer/Doctor Rolls ever Order. However the exception is oddly specific about different targets, which is pretty bad for your point in this case.

 

12 minutes ago, IJW Wartrader said:

"However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll."

Not 'the corresponding Rolls'. One Roll, singular.

So yes, that is literally what the rules say. No mention of multiple Rolls anywhere.

 

There is nothing anywhere in the Servant rules that says that you can get more than one Engineer/Doctor Roll.

And my memories are of insisting the clause was added when I helped edit N3. ;) 

Again, not what the rule says. You've left out the important part:

Thanks to this Special Skill, a trooper with G: Servant can cancel the Unconscious state of another trooper, recover STR points, and perform all the capabilities of the Doctor and Engineer Special Skills, even though they lack them. However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll.

 

Strictly speaking this says the Servant is performing the Skill, literally. The Engineer/Doc merely makes the Skill check, basically only contributing his WIP and Specialist Skill effects. There is no rule I'm aware of preventing the Doctor/Engineer from "performing a Skill of his own while making corresponding Rolls".

Honestly, this might need some fixing or you're not on the same page as CB's rule writer on this. Maybe he thought "B2" engineering against the same target is perfectly okay? If there is supposed to be intent in this rule, it should be pretty easy to change the wording for the exception to match it, problem solved (whenever that is possible, N4?).

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@IJW Wartrader the G: Servant rules has a bit of a problem deciding whether it is the Servant or the Engineer executing the Engineer skill. While it is clear that the Engineer is the one rolling, the rules implies that when you repair through the Servant it is the Servant executing the order but the Engineer rolling. What I gather is that how @DarkPhoenix reads it is that since both the Engineer and the Servant is in Base-to-Base with the single target, both will be able to perform Engineer, meaning the two models have both legally declared Engineer since the below allows the Servant to use the Engineer skill:

"Thanks to this Special Skill, a trooper with G: Servant can cancel the Unconscious state of another trooper, recover STR points, and perform all the capabilities of the Doctor and Engineer Special Skills, even though they lack them. However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll."

"Corresponding roll" would in that situation logically only be referring to the Servant's declaration, meaning the above quoted rule does not deal with the Engineer's own declaration at all. Thus two rolls by the same engineer, one per declaration, one a single target.

That said

I think the following rule solves the situation; http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Structure_of_an_Order

"»Short Skills: Can only combine within the same Order with a Short Movement Skill. Cannot be declared twice or combined with other Short Skills." (Bold emphasis added)

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EDIT

@ Teslarod - I quoted the entirety of that section in the fourth post of the thread. Stop taking the piss.

@ Mahtamori - it's still only one trooper rolling, with no permission anywhere in the rule to roll twice.

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How is who makes the corresponding roll more important that who performs all the capabilities of the Doctor and Engineer? In fact where do the rules ever cover anything regarding corresponding rolls while another trooper is performing the Order?

No hard feelings but your attitude doesn't fix the wording. It's 2 serperate troopers performing the same Skill while only one of them makes the corresponding rolls for both.

... am I taking the piss? Dunno, whatever helps you sleep at night. If that was a technical manual and something went wrong, that's foolproof lawsuit material due to misleading instructions. Recognizing and fixing things like that is part of my job and what I do for a living 40+ hours a week. But since this is the internet, you're gonna have to take my word for that. Take it or leave it.

Fortunately this is it's just a game, so it matters several degrees less. If you have any interest in improving the rules, mark it down on a list somewhere for a future revision or leave it be until it comes up the next time to pretend everything is fine again. *shrug*

Otherwise what @Mahtamori said. Don't care what the rule is supposed to do, just would be great if it was actually saying so. "Because @IJW Wartrader says so" is almost as good as a clear yes or no answer most of the time, in this case I'm really not sure what there is to be so defensive about.

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Point taken, could be made a few arguments ago and not carried away that far, I would also appreciate not using aggressive colours to highlight points of text, it can be done with underlining the points and not be perceived as shouting (same as capital and bold letters) from other posters.

 

I can see the points made and see if it can be added to a FAQ.

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This was solved since previous version of the game 

it is the same inquiry about Doctor Healing directly or through servant

a single patient is cured with a single attempt (single order)

Doc btb with unconscious trooper

single attempt of doctoring performed by doc directly 

Doc+servant

single attempt of doctoring performed by doc through servant

the doc is performing doctoring in any case

in btb directly

remotely if through servant

the doctor could NOT perform doctoring directly AND remotely (doc+servant both in btb with trooper) in the same order 

the same applies to engineer + servant

the engineer performs the task directly OR remotely, not both in the same order

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Not to beat the dead horse, but I can clearly see the point @Teslarod is making.  If there is only one roll, which indicates one application of the skill, then what is the point of that entire bullet point?

9 hours ago, DarkPhoenix said:
  • Players cannot apply the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills to different targets in the same Order. The Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only be applied to one target per Order.

The way it is written actually implies the opposite.

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Because in N2 players were trying to claim that they could heal/fix two targets at once by having the controller in base contact with one and the Servant in base contact with the other. 

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1 hour ago, IJW Wartrader said:

Because in N2 players were trying to claim that they could heal/fix two targets at once by having the controller in base contact with one and the Servant in base contact with the other. 

Ok, then perhaps we could use this thread to brainstorm some better ways to write the rule/FAQ entry to eliminate the ambiguity?  It's just that specifically calling out "different targets" in that segment seems to lead people to the conclusion that it would be fine if both were against the same target.

  • Players cannot apply the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills to different targets in the same Order. The Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only be applied to one target per Order.  In addition, the Doctor/Engineer Special Skills can only apply once on that target (either to recover a STR point or cancel states).  The choice to recover STR or cancel states must be made on the declaration of the skill.

In that vain, is it right to think of the G:Servant trooper actually Idles while the Engineer/Doctor performs the relevant skill (through the Servant)?  In other words, the "special skill" indicated below is G:Servant, not the Doctor/Engineer skills? 

Quote

However, when using this Special Skill, it will be the Doctor/Engineer who makes the corresponding Roll.

 

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I should of just shut up :)

 

I think the best way would be to explicitly prohibit using 2 Doctor/Engineer in the same order like:

  • If Controller or their Servant declare Doctor/Engineer Short Skill, then only one of them can perform it and another performs Idle.

Or something like that, just written better.

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That was the point of my last question in the above post.  I'm now fairly certain that the G:Servant Trooper doesn't even use the Engineer/Doctor skills.  I guess it declares them, because it has to, but since it doesn't actually have those skills, it will idle and the Engineer/Doctor actually carries out the skill... whether on something in front of him/her or remotely through the G:Servant. 

I guess I could see the N2 argument... it probably went something like this: "one roll can affect multiple targets in other situations (see impact template weapons), so why can't one Engineer roll affect multiple targets?"  Hence the need for that specific language.  But I still think writing it like that introduces the notion that it might be fine if it were against one target (like the OP).  One roll, one effect is a good mitigator, but an FAQ entry wouldn't hurt.

 

Q: Can an Engineer in base contact with a trooper that is also in base contact with a G:Servant apply the Engineer skill twice to either gain two structure or remove effects and gain one structure?

A: No.  The G:Servant allows the Doctor/Engineer to apply their skills remotely through them, but does not perform those skills themselves.  There is only one trooper performing the action and so only one roll is made for one effect to be applied.  There are no bonuses associated with both a Doctor/Engineer and his/her G:Servant being in base contact with the same trooper other than +1 B and +1 PH for CC attacks.

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