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TheDiceAbide

Shock vs STR

Question

So the new FAQ is out, and it clarifies that Shock does indeed ignore NWI/Dogged, regardless of the number of wounds, however there is some ambiguity of how it works regarding STR. The bit about STR troops treating the ammo as Normal is subtext to the rule regarding being sent straight to dead (assuming the "this specific special effect..." part is referring the straight to dead).

Effects

  • Each ARM Roll failed against Shock Special Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.
  • If the target has a Wounds Attribute of 1 on his profile and fails an ARM Roll against Shock Special Ammunition, then he enters the Dead state directly, bypassing the Unconscious state.
  • This specific special effect does not apply to:
    • Units whose Wounds Attribute is higher than 1 on their profile (such as Heavy Infantry).
    • Troopers who, during the course of the game, increased their Wounds Attribute above 1.
    • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.

Is the intention that STR units treat Shock as Normal for all intents and purposes, or only for the part of the rule which that is referencing?

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11 minutes ago, TheDiceAbide said:

So the new FAQ is out, and it clarifies that Shock does indeed ignore NWI/Dogged, regardless of the number of wounds, however there is some ambiguity of how it works regarding STR. The bit about STR troops treating the ammo as Normal is subtext to the rule regarding being sent straight to dead (assuming the "this specific special effect..." part is referring the straight to dead).

Effects

  • Each ARM Roll failed against Shock Special Ammunition causes the target to lose one point from his Wounds/STR Attribute.
  • If the target has a Wounds Attribute of 1 on his profile and fails an ARM Roll against Shock Special Ammunition, then he enters the Dead state directly, bypassing the Unconscious state.
  • This specific special effect does not apply to:
    • Units whose Wounds Attribute is higher than 1 on their profile (such as Heavy Infantry).
    • Troopers who, during the course of the game, increased their Wounds Attribute above 1.
    • Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.

Is the intention that STR units treat Shock as Normal for all intents and purposes, or only for the part of the rule which that is referencing?

Well it's only for that particular special effect, but that's what makes shock what it is anyway. It may have the same effects as normal, but it is still called shock. What would be the situation you're concerned about?

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2 minutes ago, Keyrott said:

Well it's only for that particular special effect, but that's what makes shock what it is anyway. It may have the same effects as normal, but it is still called shock. What would be the situation you're concerned about?

There's also a pop-out box that says that Shock ignores V: NWI and V: Dogged.  It's unclear if the highlighted line also nullifies that popout or not.

Short version: If a Skiavoro is hit by a shock round, does it go unconscious or activate V: NWI?

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4 minutes ago, Keyrott said:

Well it's only for that particular special effect, but that's what makes shock what it is anyway. It may have the same effects as normal, but it is still called shock. What would be the situation you're concerned about?

Shock has three effects, it causes a Wound/STR of damage, it bypasses unconscious for single wound models, and it ignores shock/NWI.

Shock ignores Dogged/NWI, if you shoot a Su Jian with a sniper rifle, does it get to go NWI, or is it forced to go Unconscious?

The new FAQ says that Shock ammo Ignores NWI/Dogged regardless of the number of wounds (as stated in the IMPORTANT text of the rule), which reinforces that the "Specific special effect" bit is referencing going straight to dead. The rule that I put in bold says that STR treats Shock as Normal, but it falls under the "This specific special effect does not apply to" heading.

So, does the bolded text tell you to treat Shock like Normal for all purposes, or only for the going straight to dead special effect?

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28 minutes ago, ToadChild said:

Short version: If a Skiavoro is hit by a shock round, does it go unconscious or activate V: NWI?

Ah, I gotcha, that is really unclear. The verbage sounds like it should be an overarching rule for Shock on the whole because of how it's worded with such clarity, but under a confusing sub-rule heading.

John-Candy-Okay.I-See.gif

I'd still assume STR troops are unaffected due to Shock's description as a Neurotoxin on CCW's, but that's lore bull.

 

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I was kind of blindsided by this ruling but it seems to me that according to the wording as the FAQ presents it, the function of Shock where it ignores Dogged/NWI will still function vs. troopers with STR. So say hello to knocking Su Jians unconscious etc. 


It's not like Shock ammo needed to be better...

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This FAQ together with the way Shock Ammo is written leaves, I'd say, Su Jian in limbo. It literally says "same effects as Normal ammo" in direct reference to STR models and STR models only, and the FAQ makes insufficient clear mention of STR.

I mean, not the limbo as in "it's somewhat unclear but we get hints on how to play" but more like limbo as in "TO clarification required at list building"

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1 minute ago, Mahtamori said:

This FAQ together with the way Shock Ammo is written leaves, I'd say, Su Jian in limbo.

And unidrons.

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2 hours ago, TheDiceAbide said:

Units with a Structure (STR) Attribute instead of a Wounds Attribute, such as Remotes, TAGs, Vehicles, etc. Against these, Shock Special Ammunition has the same effects as Normal Ammunition.

So what part of this is unclear?

Shoot something with Structure, Shock becomes Normal. 

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23 minutes ago, Mahtamori said:

I mean, not the limbo as in "it's somewhat unclear but we get hints on how to play" but more like limbo as in "TO clarification required at list building"

Yup, add another thing to the list...

Personally I think the red box in the Shock ammunition section was supposed to mean the exact same thing as the red box in Viral, but the wording wasn't exactly the same and someone who didn't write the rules interpreted them differently. 

Not looking forward to my Samaritans being able to be knocked unconscious with knives after having already gained wounds via Protheion. 

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2 minutes ago, ItsUncertainWho said:

So what part of this is unclear?

Shoot something with Structure, Shock becomes Normal. 

Because it is in the same sub-list of eligibility as multi-wound models, which was just FAQ'd that they do NOT get to keep their NWI vs. Shock ammo. So when it says "this special effect does not apply to" it is specifically referring to the effect of "straight to dead" only. Or is it?

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23 minutes ago, Mahtamori said: I mean, not the limbo as in "it's somewhat unclear but we get hints on how to play" but more like limbo as in "TO clarification required at list building"

Yup, add another thing to the list...

Personally I think the red box in the Shock ammunition section was supposed to mean the exact same thing as the red box in Viral, but the wording wasn't exactly the same and someone who didn't write the rules interpreted them differently. 

Not looking forward to my Samaritans being able to be knocked unconscious with knives after having already gained wounds via Protheion. 

It could be worse that could have been ruled that once they're back to 1W they're a single wound profile so they go straight to dead. ;)
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8 minutes ago, ItsUncertainWho said:

So what part of this is unclear?

Shoot something with Structure, Shock becomes Normal. 

The unclear part is that for STR Shock = Normal appears in the part of the text that specifically only applies to skipping unconscious.

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6 minutes ago, Hecaton said:

Not looking forward to my Samaritans being able to be knocked unconscious with knives after having already gained wounds via Protheion. 

How, exactly, is a CC 24 ProtL4 troop going to fall to anything wielding a knife?

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6 minutes ago, Hecaton said: Not looking forward to my Samaritans being able to be knocked unconscious with knives after having already gained wounds via Protheion. 

How, exactly, is a CC 24 ProtL4 troop going to fall to anything wielding a knife?

Crits. Everytime.
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9 minutes ago, TheDiceAbide said:

The unclear part is that for STR Shock = Normal appears in the part of the text that specifically only applies to skipping unconscious.

I think that makes it pretty clear that troopers with STR only treat shock ammo as being normal for the purposes of skipping unconscious. For the purposes of negating NWI/Dogged it would still affect them. 

This ruling doesn't make much sense imo and doesn't jive with any previous interpretations. I hope they walk it back. 

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7 minutes ago, inane.imp said:

Crits. Everytime.

Well, yeah... I guess it IS possible :).

I just had a game where 3 straight orders were crit vs crit (spitfire in the active turn vs TR bot) with the fourth order giving me a crit and my opponent none.

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1 hour ago, macfergusson said:

Because it is in the same sub-list of eligibility as multi-wound models, which was just FAQ'd that they do NOT get to keep their NWI vs. Shock ammo. So when it says "this special effect does not apply to" it is specifically referring to the effect of "straight to dead" only. Or is it?

No, the multi wounds models have no effect but they still treat it as shock ammo, even though they don't go straight to dead. STR says it treats it like normal ammo and normal ammo has no special effects.

 

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23 minutes ago, Zewrath said:

No, the multi wounds models have no effect but they still treat it as shock ammo, even though they don't go straight to dead. STR says it treats it like normal ammo and normal ammo has no special effects.

 

Yeah that's not what I get from the text at all. 

The wording is, predictably, tortuous and contradictory, but that's par for the course with CB. 

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2 minutes ago, Hecaton said:

Yeah that's not what I get from the text at all. 

The wording is, predictably, tortuous and contradictory, but that's par for the course with CB. 

Sadly, I agree with this. It's getting waaay past annoying at this point. 

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Shock ammo has two effects, A. straight to dead and B. ignore NWI/dogged.

If a unit with STR is hit with shock ammo it ignores A because it treats Shock ammo as normal ammo.

For B to affect it, it has to be shock ammo.

So if a unit with STR is affected by B, it has to be affected by A as well, because that would mean you aren't treating it as normal ammo.

It can't be both shock and normal ammo at the same time.

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treats it as normal ammo.

 

how is there an argument, does normal ammo cancel out NWi or Dogged?

No it doesnt

4 hours ago, Hecaton said:

Yeah that's not what I get from the text at all. 

The wording is, predictably, tortuous and contradictory, but that's par for the course with CB. 

how is it not? it straight up tells you shock ammo is treated as normal ammo.

 

It doesnt get any clearer

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1 hour ago, Daboarder said:

treats it as normal ammo.

 

how is there an argument, does normal ammo cancel out NWi or Dogged?

No it doesnt

how is it not? it straight up tells you shock ammo is treated as normal ammo.

 

It doesnt get any clearer

It only "straight up tells you" that in a section which starts with "This specific special effect does not apply to:", while "This specific effect" is in reference to going straight to dead. This is why the Important text applies to W2 models, despite them ignoring that specific special effect, and the reason why people are confused, and even many of Warcors don't know or agree on what we're supposed to do about it.

It's not constructive or helpful to say "it doesn't get any clearer." The bit mentioning STR models is written in a super broad manner, but is written in the context of a section that only applies to one specific part of the rule itself... that's not clear at all.

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2 minutes ago, TheDiceAbide said:

It only "straight up tells you" that in a section which starts with "This specific special effect does not apply to:", while "This specific effect" is in reference to going straight to dead. This is why the Important text applies to W2 models, despite them ignoring that specific special effect, and the reason why people are confused, and even many of Warcors don't know or agree on what we're supposed to do about it.

It's not constructive or helpful to say "it doesn't get any clearer." The bit mentioning STR models is written in a super broad manner, but is written in the context of a section that only applies to one specific part of the rule itself... that's not clear at all.

How can a model only half treat it as normal ammo? It's either treated as normal ammo (ignoring both effects) or it isnt (which means that it would conflict with the text). The only reason why STR models ignore the "straight to dead" effect is because they treat shock as normal ammo. So if they ignore the "straight to dead" portion, they ignore all of it. That's why it's clear.

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what effect does normal ammo have on NWI and Dogged?

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